Whooping Cough comming back??????????

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PLAYER57832
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

jay_a2j wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.
OH BULL!
Actually not bull..
It's "bull" to state that as a significant reason for the uptick in whooping cough cases, yes. PLAYER, Queen_Herpes and tzor have pointed out the real reasons and illegal immigrants simply are not one of them.

Re-read the first 10 words of the second sentence. Then, having cleaned all the pie from your face, re-read the rest of the post. :roll:
REPEAT AFTER ME: It is NOT MEXICANS who are refusing to vaccinate their kids! It is middle class and upper class Americans who believe the hype of a few prominent idiots who have convinced them that vaccines are harmful.

Try real truth instead of media hype for a change, jay!
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by jay_a2j »

PLAYER57832 wrote:Just the same ole condescending remarks as usual, topped of with a healthy dose of unsubstantiated "proof".


PLAYER shut it.
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Just the same ole condescending remarks as usual, topped of with a healthy dose of unsubstantiated "proof".


PLAYER shut it.
Not as long as you keep spouting your idiocy!

You are WAY out of line on this one jay. That you refuse to even verify just shows you are a wilful idiot.



Mexico more effective than U.S. at immunizing children
Mexico's paternalistic approach has led to a 96% vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with 79% of American 2-year-olds.
By EDWARD HEGSTROM
Houston Chronicle

MONTERREY, MEXICO – If parents here are late getting their child inoculated, a public-health nurse will come to their home, pull down the youngster's pants and give the vaccination right there in the living room. anyway, and the paperwork is left with the baby sitter.

In Monterrey, like Houston, an industrial city of more than a million with large pockets of underclass, the government divides its poor neighborhoods into sections of about four square blocks each, then puts a nurse in charge of supervising parents in each area to ensure all of the children are vaccinated on time.

It is a paternalistic approach almost impossible to imagine in the United States - where privacy rights and other freedoms are highly valued and immunizations are increasingly feared - but it has proved remarkably effective: Mexico has a 96 percent vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with an immunization rate of 79 percent for 2-year-olds in the United States.

The disparity is even greater between Monterrey and Houston, which has one of the most stubbornly low vaccination rates in the United States. In Monterrey, 98 percent of the children ages 1 to 4 are fully immunized, a higher percentage than reached by any U.S. city. In Houston, barely 71 percent of 2-year-olds are caught up on their shots.

Mexico's immunization success is something Americans - particularly Texans - can cheer. Epidemics of preventable disease used to go back and forth between the two countries. That no longer happens, thanks mostly to the remarkable but unheralded improvements in Mexico and other countries in the region.

"One of the main reasons there is no longer measles in the United States is because we no longer have measles in Latin America and the Caribbean," said Dr. Ciro de Quadros, the recently retired director of immunizations for the Pan American Health Organization. Mexico, he said, has done a "remarkable" job of vaccinating its children in the past decade.
Conventional wisdom says it is harder to develop a public-health system in a poor country. But Quadros notes that a wealthy country like the United States has problems of its own.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by Pedronicus »

jay_a2j wrote: And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.
Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by jay_a2j »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Just the same ole condescending remarks as usual, topped of with a healthy dose of unsubstantiated "proof".


PLAYER shut it.
Not as long as you keep spouting your idiocy!

You are WAY out of line on this one jay. That you refuse to even verify just shows you are a wilful idiot.



Mexico more effective than U.S. at immunizing children
Mexico's paternalistic approach has led to a 96% vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with 79% of American 2-year-olds.
By EDWARD HEGSTROM
Houston Chronicle

MONTERREY, MEXICO – If parents here are late getting their child inoculated, a public-health nurse will come to their home, pull down the youngster's pants and give the vaccination right there in the living room. anyway, and the paperwork is left with the baby sitter.

In Monterrey, like Houston, an industrial city of more than a million with large pockets of underclass, the government divides its poor neighborhoods into sections of about four square blocks each, then puts a nurse in charge of supervising parents in each area to ensure all of the children are vaccinated on time.

It is a paternalistic approach almost impossible to imagine in the United States - where privacy rights and other freedoms are highly valued and immunizations are increasingly feared - but it has proved remarkably effective: Mexico has a 96 percent vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with an immunization rate of 79 percent for 2-year-olds in the United States.

The disparity is even greater between Monterrey and Houston, which has one of the most stubbornly low vaccination rates in the United States. In Monterrey, 98 percent of the children ages 1 to 4 are fully immunized, a higher percentage than reached by any U.S. city. In Houston, barely 71 percent of 2-year-olds are caught up on their shots.

Mexico's immunization success is something Americans - particularly Texans - can cheer. Epidemics of preventable disease used to go back and forth between the two countries. That no longer happens, thanks mostly to the remarkable but unheralded improvements in Mexico and other countries in the region.

"One of the main reasons there is no longer measles in the United States is because we no longer have measles in Latin America and the Caribbean," said Dr. Ciro de Quadros, the recently retired director of immunizations for the Pan American Health Organization. Mexico, he said, has done a "remarkable" job of vaccinating its children in the past decade.
Conventional wisdom says it is harder to develop a public-health system in a poor country. But Quadros notes that a wealthy country like the United States has problems of its own.


Player, if you believe that no diseases come across our southern border, then you are even dumber than you appear. You can twist ANY data to suit your view, politicians do it all the time. WAKE UP!!!!!! Millions of people streaming across our border is BOUND to have adverse effects on disease control!!!!!!!!!!! NOW, SHUT IT!
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by jay_a2j »

Pedronicus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.
Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....

Apparently you haven't been here long enough because up until PLAYER posted a was as calm as a cucumber.
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by King Doctor »

jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Just the same ole condescending remarks as usual, topped of with a healthy dose of unsubstantiated "proof".
PLAYER shut it.
... and that would be another of those weak attempts at condescension.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

jay_a2j wrote:


Player, if you believe that no diseases come across our southern border, then you are even dumber than you appear. You can twist ANY data to suit your view, politicians do it all the time. WAKE UP!!!!!! Millions of people streaming across our border is BOUND to have adverse effects on disease control!!!!!!!!!!! NOW, SHUT IT!
The point, jay is that MEXICANS ARE MORE VACCINATED AND THEREFORE LESS OF A RISK THAN YOUR WELL-OFF YUPPIE NEIGHBORS.

I have given you an opportunity to stop being an idiot...

I am definitely NOT the one "twisting the data" here... why is this so difficult for you to understand. I know you never learned science, but I thought you learned math?

Let me clarify.. 95% is OVER 76%

Furthermore, had you investigated further, (this, I know is a complex concept for you), you would have found that the rate necessary to protect a community for measles is around 94%. WE are BELOW that. MEXICO is ABOVE that. Therefore, the diseases are going to go south, NOT NORTH!

WE ARE THREATENING THEM, NOT THE REVERSE!


Here, chart on community Immunity:

Diphtheria
85%

Measles
94% or more

Whooping Cough
94%

Rubella
85%

Smallpox
85%

These figures ARE estimates. It is difficult to determin exactly when a community is protected, but the point, jay is that the US has such low vaccination rates that Measles, and other diseases such as whooping cough are returning HERE. However, they are NOT returning to Mexico or, indeed most of South America.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by Woodruff »

jay_a2j wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.
OH BULL!
Actually not bull..
It's "bull" to state that as a significant reason for the uptick in whooping cough cases, yes. PLAYER, Queen_Herpes and tzor have pointed out the real reasons and illegal immigrants simply are not one of them.
Re-read the first 10 words of the second sentence. Then, having cleaned all the pie from your face, re-read the rest of the post. :roll:
Are you actually going to say that statement wasn't an implication that it was a significant reason for the uptick in whooping cough cases? Because if that's the case, why did you bother posting it in the first place? You're not very good at this misdirection thing...but at least we know it's not because of your inherent honesty, so you've got that going for you.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by King Doctor »

jay_a2j wrote:Player, if you believe that no diseases come across our southern border, then you are even dumber than you appear. You can twist ANY data to suit your view, politicians do it all the time. WAKE UP!!!!!! Millions of people streaming across our border is BOUND to have adverse effects on disease control!!!!!!!!!!! NOW, SHUT IT!

Specifically speaking, which diseases is it that you believe all of these Johnny Foreigners have, which are not already present in America? Precisely what condition is it you are concerned is being carried across the border?


Or are you just having a general uninformed flail at Mexicans because you're a bit scared of brown people?
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

King Doctor wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Player, if you believe that no diseases come across our southern border, then you are even dumber than you appear. You can twist ANY data to suit your view, politicians do it all the time. WAKE UP!!!!!! Millions of people streaming across our border is BOUND to have adverse effects on disease control!!!!!!!!!!! NOW, SHUT IT!

Specifically speaking, which diseases is it that you believe all of these Johnny Foreigners have, which are not already present in America? Precisely what condition is it you are concerned is being carried across the border?


Or are you just having a general uninformed flail at Mexicans because you're a bit scared of brown people?
It's worse than that, because our vaccination rates are so low that WE are going to be spreading infection south. EXCEPT, they are smart enough to vaccinate all their kids, so our one grace is that it is unlikely to take hold down there.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

More on community immunity:

Unimmunized persons are protected—indirectly—against some infectious diseases by being surrounded by immunized persons. This is known as community (or “herd”) immunity. [fn]Fine PE. Community Immunity [Chapter 56]. In: Plotkin SA, Orenstein WA (Eds). Vaccines (4th Edition). Philadelphia, PA: W.B. Saunders Company, 2004.[/fn]

For example, someone who has never had chickenpox or chickenpox vaccine is said to be susceptible to chickenpox. That means the person can become infected and develop the disease along with its potential complications. However, if everyone in proximity to the susceptible is immune to chickenpox (either by vaccination or prior infection), and so incapable of transmitting the infection to others, the chickenpox virus will be blocked from reaching the susceptible.

This is an especially important way to protect immunosuppressed children such as those being treated for leukemia. Children with leukemia usually cannot be immunized against chickenpox because both the vaccine virus and the wild type virus can cause severe—sometimes fatal—infection because of the child’s weakened immune system. But they can be protected if others around them are immunized.


link: http://wzus1.ask.com/r?t=p&d=us&s=a&c=a ... y-immunity
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

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what else would you expect from a country that is bankrupting itself?
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Phatscotty wrote:what else would you expect from a country that is bankrupting itself?
Which country is that?
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by jonesthecurl »

Pedronicus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.
Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....
He's well beyond Barking. He's practically at Upminster, and that's the end of the line.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by Woodruff »

jonesthecurl wrote:
Pedronicus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.
Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....
He's well beyond Barking. He's practically at Upminster, and that's the end of the line.
I was thinking "Westminster", but...<grin>
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by GabonX »

PLAYER57832 wrote:Mexico more effective than U.S. at immunizing children
Mexico's paternalistic approach has led to a 96% vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with 79% of American 2-year-olds.

It is a paternalistic approach almost impossible to imagine in the United States - where privacy rights and other freedoms are highly valued and immunizations are increasingly feared - but it has proved remarkably effective: Mexico has a 96 percent vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with an immunization rate of 79 percent for 2-year-olds in the United States.

The disparity is even greater between Monterrey and Houston, which has one of the most stubbornly low vaccination rates in the United States. In Monterrey, 98 percent of the children ages 1 to 4 are fully immunized, a higher percentage than reached by any U.S. city. In Houston, barely 71 percent of 2-year-olds are caught up on their shots.
Comparing Mexican 4 year olds to American 2 year olds seems invalid considering that such a comparison gives Mexican children an additional two years..

Also, the line "In Monterrey, 98 percent of the children ages 1 to 4 are fully immunized, a higher percentage than reached by any U.S. city. In Houston, barely 71 percent of 2-year-olds are caught up on their shots" is highly suspect considering that children in the US are recommended to take the final course of immunizations between 4 and 6...


I would like to see the actual statistical data on this because there's a strong possibility that this article is highly misleading.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by King Doctor »

Woodruff wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Pedronicus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.
Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....
He's well beyond Barking. He's practically at Upminster, and that's the end of the line.
I was thinking "Westminster", but...<grin>
But Westminster is in the middle of the line? That makes no sense... <gets penis out and ties elaborate knots in it>
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by Timminz »

jay_a2j wrote:
Pedronicus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.
Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....
Apparently you haven't been here long enough because up until PLAYER posted a was as calm as a cucumber.
I know how you feel. Nothing raises my dander quite like someone using verifiable facts to show that my loony rantings have no basis in reality.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by PLAYER57832 »

GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Mexico more effective than U.S. at immunizing children
Mexico's paternalistic approach has led to a 96% vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with 79% of American 2-year-olds.

It is a paternalistic approach almost impossible to imagine in the United States - where privacy rights and other freedoms are highly valued and immunizations are increasingly feared - but it has proved remarkably effective: Mexico has a 96 percent vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with an immunization rate of 79 percent for 2-year-olds in the United States.

The disparity is even greater between Monterrey and Houston, which has one of the most stubbornly low vaccination rates in the United States. In Monterrey, 98 percent of the children ages 1 to 4 are fully immunized, a higher percentage than reached by any U.S. city. In Houston, barely 71 percent of 2-year-olds are caught up on their shots.
Comparing Mexican 4 year olds to American 2 year olds seems invalid considering that such a comparison gives Mexican children an additional two years..

Also, the line "In Monterrey, 98 percent of the children ages 1 to 4 are fully immunized, a higher percentage than reached by any U.S. city. In Houston, barely 71 percent of 2-year-olds are caught up on their shots" is highly suspect considering that children in the US are recommended to take the final course of immunizations between 4 and 6...


I would like to see the actual statistical data on this because there's a strong possibility that this article is highly misleading.
Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned. Also, if you followed the links I gave you, the second article contains a lot more information (I just printed the chart and introduction), BOTH contain references that will allow you to track down the information.

Also, your assumption about 4-6 being the age of final vaccines is just wrong. Kids actually get repeated vaccinations all through their life and many are reccomended for adults (varicella was the one I just heard advertised on the radio). But, the big thing is the word "current". Kids who start with vaccinations almost always continue. Kids who don't get those first rounds often don't get later rounds. It used to be that many kids were not vaccinated until kindergarten, when it was required, but that is no longer the case. It is no longer the accepted medical practice. Also, all daycares require proof of vaccination or medical/religious exemption, as do many other types of group programs (everything from vacation Bible school to gymnastics programs here require them).

My point is not to say that these vaccination rates are absolutely perfect. My point is just that jay's assumption that we are getting waves of diseases from Mexico is just wrong, in particularly as evidenced by vaccination rates. IN fact, the real threat is that diseases from us will migrate south. This is true for other reasons, but again, my point was just that jay, once again posted some off-the cuff information and made a broad assumption based on his biases and beliefs, not any facts.

But.. do go into those references.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

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Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned.
A 17% gap between children who receive twice as long to receive vaccinations (4 years as opposed to 2 years) doesn't seem that wide.

Portrayal of it as such IS highly misleading.
Also, if you followed the links I gave you, the second article contains a lot more information (I just printed the chart and introduction), BOTH contain references that will allow you to track down the information.
I only see that you put up one link in this thread, and it doesn't appear to have any of the relevant data..
Also, your assumption about 4-6 being the age of final vaccines is just wrong. Kids actually get repeated vaccinations all through their life and many are reccomended for adults (varicella was the one I just heard advertised on the radio).
Also, all daycares require proof of vaccination or medical/religious exemption, as do many other types of group programs (everything from vacation Bible school to gymnastics programs here require them).
Maybe if you look at these two quotes of yours together you'll see why I don't think it's so unreasonable to think 4 to 6 years is an unreasonable standard to consider. Standard medical practice or not, necessity is a powerful motivator..


Why are you so up in arms about vaccinations anyhow? If you get your kids vaccinated what's the problem?

Likewise, how are we going to spread disease to Mexico if they're so much more highly vaccinated than we are?
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

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GabonX wrote:Why are you so up in arms about vaccinations anyhow? If you get your kids vaccinated what's the problem?
The concept you're seeking here is named 'Herd Immunity', which essentially states that in practical terms everybody gains the benefits of vaccination once a certain percentage of the population is vaccinated. A state of affairs which not only stops the transmission of a condition, but also restricts its ability to mutate and adapt around existing vaccinations.

Disease control isn't an area in which the "I'm all right Jack", Strong Rugged f*ck All the Other Kids Individual, I've got a gun so what, school of thought is particularly helpful, I'm afraid.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by GabonX »

The only valid point I see is that it could prevent a disease from adapting, but aside from that there's nothing. I can't find a source to support that claim but it makes enough sense...

Regardless, "heard immunity" seems rather irrelevant to individuals who are immune to a given disease unless there is a radical mutation.

Here's a question, do you think people should get vaccinations, or do you think people should be forced to get vaccinations?
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by Timminz »

Forced.

At gun-point.

By Hell's Angels.
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Re: Whooping Cough comming back??????????

Post by jonesthecurl »

Timminz wrote:Forced.

At gun-point.

By Hell's Angels.
in the butt.
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