The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by BigBallinStalin »

thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


.... wow.

I wouldn't want to live in New York.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Aradhus wrote:This isn't a subject that I know particularly well, but that doesn't stop anyone else from chiming in, so..

I think a lot of people feel that many of these rich guys didn't accumulate their wealth because of a fair capitalist system. They work in corporations that buy politicians so that those politicians will pass laws that will restrict competition in their areas of business.


That's true to a degree, but what % of corporations do this? Even a small non-profit can influence local politics.

People say that if we tax the rich more, that that will impede the economy as they will be unable to hire more.

If I work for a corporation, the money I earn isn't used to hire employees. The corporation does the hiring.


Actually, it will limit economic development and growth and discourage international trade, foreign direct investments, yada yada. The loss isn't felt in just layoffs, but by increasing one's taxes, then corporations would be forced to cut costs, which could lead to more outsourcing, or substitutes for labor like machines, computers, etc.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by spurgistan »

Apparently, a lot of people place a lot of value on living in New York. Maybe those tax dollars don't just go to lining the pockets of Tammany Hall bigwigs? Food for thought.

On a side note, Thomas Nast was a bigot.

Also, I feel like the fact that federal taxes (which are kind of the center of the tax debate atm) are at their lowest rates in 20 years ought to be mentioned here.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Timminz »

thegreekdog wrote:
Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Timminz wrote:Perspective, I guess.

I pay about 30% on about 30K, so I have trouble feeling sorry for someone paying only 10% more on 7 times as much.


Should you move to the US? You're paying $9,000 in Canada. Let's say you made $30K and lived in New York City:

- Federal income tax - $4,086 tax (according to the tax bracket, which is about 14%)
- Social security - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $1,860
- Medicare - 1.45% on your wages = $435
- New York state personal income tax - $973 plus 6.85% of excess over $20,000 ($685) = $1,658
- New York city personal income tax - $628 plus 3.591% of excess over $21,600 ($302) = $630

- Total tax = $8,669 (or 28.9%).

And if you lived somewhere other than New York City, you'd pay less. You also would have access to more deductions than someone who makes $200K, for whatever that's worth.


Cool. How's the public education, and healthcare I don't suspect $300/year would go very far towards those things.


I was publicly educated and I did okay. You seem like a smart guy, so I'm sure you would be okay as well.

Healthcare? I'm not sure whether your employer would provide healthcare or not (depends on the employer) or whether you'd get access to Medicaid.


Smart enough to stay in Canada. My secondary (or primary, depending on your choice of definition) source of income would dissapear completely if I left the city in which I currently reside.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by thegreekdog »

spurgistan wrote:Also, I feel like the fact that federal taxes (which are kind of the center of the tax debate atm) are at their lowest rates in 20 years ought to be mentioned here.


This is correct and should definitely be mentioned.

The United States imposes one of the highest corporate income tax rates. I should mention that the tax rate may have little to do with the actual tax (deductions, credits, etc. affect tax in the United States as much, if not more, than tax rates). US corporate tax rates are 35%. State tax rates on corporations range from 0% to 12%. So, if you are in Pennsylvania, for example, you could be paying up to 44.99% tax rate, ignoring local taxes.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by radiojake »

thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


I am sure she will be still very well off on the remaining $120,000
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by thegreekdog »

radiojake wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


I am sure she will be still very well off on the remaining $120,000


That's not really the question though. What if she works 100 hours a week? What if she has highly technical skills for which she had to go to significant amounts of schooling (and for which she incurred significant amounts of loans)? Are you saying she doesn't deserve to take home more than $120K?

Also - New York City? Uber expensive.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

InkL0sed wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Why are people so pissed of the rich are getting a tax cut?


Because they already have more than enough money


yes but they already pay the highest rate and more than everyone else.

At least this way, everyone gets treated the same, even though the premise is completely messed up. The richest 10% in this country account for over 50% of the revenues, and even more when you count all the taxes/benefits those who create/sustain jobs.


The rich pay the majority of taxes, but they also earn the majority of the wealth.


Which is why what he have should make sense to those who are pissed off that the rich aren't getting taxed more. Just saying, if it weren't the case, and the middle class was paying the largest share, then I would be agreeing with you.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by tzor »

radiojake wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


I am sure she will be still very well off on the remaining $120,000


In New York City? Meh, barely upper middle class. If he is married with children the wife is definitely going to need to work as well, that's not enough.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by nietzsche »

thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


WOW! How much money does the US Government get anyway? Why so much?

81k in taxes? It's like a bully taking your money! I think you were better when you paid taxes to the Queen.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by radiojake »

tzor wrote:
radiojake wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


I am sure she will be still very well off on the remaining $120,000


In New York City? Meh, barely upper middle class. If he is married with children the wife is definitely going to need to work as well, that's not enough.


I think you'll find our hypothetical New York stock broker is female -

$120,000 is not enought to what? Eat? Live? Pay rent/mortgage? Or not enough to be able to take holidays in the Bahamas every year?
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by thegreekdog »

Here are the average rental prices in Manhattan (where a stockbroker is most likely to live):

Studio - $4,098 per month ($49,176 per year)
One-bedroom - $4,414 per month ($52,968 per year)
Two-bedroom - $6,095 per month ($73,140 per year)
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Night Strike »

thegreekdog wrote:Here are the average rental prices in Manhattan (where a stockbroker is most likely to live):

Studio - $4,098 per month ($49,176 per year)
One-bedroom - $4,414 per month ($52,968 per year)
Two-bedroom - $6,095 per month ($73,140 per year)


How much is sales tax in NYC? I wonder what the average cab fare is for her travel to and from work (assuming she didn't have a car that she'd have to pay more taxes on). I bet food prices are a lot higher in NYC than they are here in the Midwest. How are the prices for utilities if they aren't included in rent?


Yep, those rich people really should be paying more. We can't survive as a society with those people having $10,000 extra.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by thegreekdog »

Sales tax is imposed at a rate of 8.875% in NYC (I think - it's close to that if not that). That obviously doesn't count tobacco or alcohol, which I believe have higher rates. I believe she could live in New Jersey and commute by car, but then she has to be the $12 toll to get to NYC.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by spurgistan »

And just curious, why are you calculating our theoretical taxee with $200k in taxable income when the minimum bracket that could have returned to pre-Bush tax cut levels was $250k? And where do you get $10k in additional tax dollars from, that's just crazy talk.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by thegreekdog »

spurgistan wrote:And just curious, why are you calculating our theoretical taxee with $200k in taxable income when the minimum bracket that could have returned to pre-Bush tax cut levels was $250k? And where do you get $10k in additional tax dollars from, that's just crazy talk.


Can you explain both of these?
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Night Strike »

spurgistan wrote:And just curious, why are you calculating our theoretical taxee with $200k in taxable income when the minimum bracket that could have returned to pre-Bush tax cut levels was $250k? And where do you get $10k in additional tax dollars from, that's just crazy talk.


Obama wanted them to rise for individuals over $200k and families over $250k.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by spurgistan »

Night Strike wrote:
spurgistan wrote:And just curious, why are you calculating our theoretical taxee with $200k in taxable income when the minimum bracket that could have returned to pre-Bush tax cut levels was $250k? And where do you get $10k in additional tax dollars from, that's just crazy talk.


Obama wanted them to rise for individuals over $200k and families over $250k.


Decent clarification.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Night Strike »

spurgistan wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
spurgistan wrote:And just curious, why are you calculating our theoretical taxee with $200k in taxable income when the minimum bracket that could have returned to pre-Bush tax cut levels was $250k? And where do you get $10k in additional tax dollars from, that's just crazy talk.


Obama wanted them to rise for individuals over $200k and families over $250k.


Decent clarification.


Oh, that $10k comment was directed toward me. I was being facetious saying that we need to raise taxes so that woman can't keep that $10k that she has left after taxes and necessities.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


I would call that person stupid for not finding deductions, and/or other loopholes. Hell, with $120k of take-home pay, I'm sure she could afford to hire someone like you to help her cut that amount (tax, not take-home) drastically.


The rich...damned if they do, damned if they don't. how dare they not care about people like us! Your "stupid" rich person example is the one most attacked by the liberals here. "They are dodging taxes/not paying their fair share!"
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

Timminz wrote:Perspective, I guess.

I pay about 30% on about 30K, so I have trouble feeling sorry for someone paying only 10% more on 7 times as much.



ok so you paid in 10k and the person who makes more paid in 80k.

If I made a case for who the greedy one was, I wonder......NM
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

thegreekdog wrote:
Aradhus wrote:This isn't a subject that I know particularly well, but that doesn't stop anyone else from chiming in, so..

I think a lot of people feel that many of these rich guys didn't accumulate their wealth because of a fair capitalist system. They work in corporations that buy politicians so that those politicians will pass laws that will restrict competition in their areas of business.

People say that if we tax the rich more, that that will impede the economy as they will be unable to hire more.

If I work for a corporation, the money I earn isn't used to hire employees. The corporation does the hiring.

Liberals tend to find it easy to criticize the rich, because it fits in with the dubious distrusting paranoid 'corporations are teh evil' common view liberals are inclined to have. While Conservatives find it easy to criticize government because that fits the paranoid mindset they're inclined to have.

Kinda like, conservatives blame the hooker, and liberals blame the johns.

(I preemptively concede that this post is weak, don't troll me dawg)


I agree with everything you typed. Except that I'd point out that Congressional Democrats pay lip service to the idea that the rich are evil. Consider that President Obama is rich and most people that donate to Democrats are rich. It's not like Microsoft isn't giving money to Democrats.


I did too. This "tax the rich" stuff only works on people who don't know any better, or only what they are told.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

karel wrote:once again the republicans save the rich..........they should pay more...

Even bill gates and warren buffet say they dont pay enough taxes


Wow, do they want favors from the gov't or anything? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

You truly believe the world is that simple?
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Timminz wrote:Perspective, I guess.

I pay about 30% on about 30K, so I have trouble feeling sorry for someone paying only 10% more on 7 times as much.


Should you move to the US? You're paying $9,000 in Canada. Let's say you made $30K and lived in New York City:

- Federal income tax - $4,086 tax (according to the tax bracket, which is about 14%)
- Social security - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $1,860
- Medicare - 1.45% on your wages = $435
- New York state personal income tax - $973 plus 6.85% of excess over $20,000 ($685) = $1,658
- New York city personal income tax - $628 plus 3.591% of excess over $21,600 ($302) = $630

- Total tax = $8,669 (or 28.9%).

And if you lived somewhere other than New York City, you'd pay less. You also would have access to more deductions than someone who makes $200K, for whatever that's worth.


Cool. How's the public education, and healthcare I don't suspect $300/year would go very far towards those things.


I was publicly educated and I did okay. You seem like a smart guy, so I'm sure you would be okay as well.

Healthcare? I'm not sure whether your employer would provide healthcare or not (depends on the employer) or whether you'd get access to Medicaid.


Smart enough to stay in Canada. My secondary (or primary, depending on your choice of definition) source of income would dissapear completely if I left the city in which I currently reside.


Dude, there are plenty of pot-heads in NY.
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Re: The Rich and Taxes: A Debate

Post by Phatscotty »

thegreekdog wrote:Here's what a person living in New York City (let's say she is a stock broker) and making over $200,000 per year pays in personal income taxes (based on tax rates).

- Income = $200,000
- US federal - Your tax is $41,754 + 33% of the amount over $171,550 ($9,389) = $51,143
- New York state personal income tax - Your tax is $13,303 plus 7.85% of the excess over $200,000 = $13,303
- New York city personal income tax - Your tax is $3,071 plus 3.648% of the excess of $90,000 ($4,013) = $7,084
- Social security tax - 6.2% on the first $106,800 of taxable earnings = $6,622
- Medicare tax - 1.45% on an employee's wages = $2,900

- Total tax = $81,052


Are there any sales taxes in NY? How about toll roads? gas taxes? textile taxes? and driving fees/tabs/permits/licenses? prepared food taxes?

I bet it comes out more like 105k

here are some others, not directly related, but some of them most certainly are (since prices for goods go up to make up for lost capital that is taken by the gov't/looter class)



Tax Types & Descriptions

Blue Bullet Point GraphicBanking Corporation Tax (BCT)
A tax on banking corporations, commercial and savings banks, savings and loan associations, bank holding companies, and trust companies. Certain subsidiaries of banks that are owned by a bank or bank holding company are also taxed.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicCigarette Tax
A tax paid by an agent or distributor and passed onto the cost of each pack of cigarettes.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicCommercial Motor Vehicle Tax (CMVT)
A tax on non-passenger motor vehicles principally used in New York City or by a business conducted in NYC. Motor vehicles used regularly in NYC for passenger transportation are also taxed.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicCommercial Rent Tax (CRT)
A tax charged to commercial tenants who occupy or use a premise for commercial activity in Manhattan, south of 96th Street.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicE-911 Surcharge for wireless phone and internet voice communication services
A fee used to improve the public safety communications network.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicGeneral Corporation Tax (GCT)
A tax on corporations that have business activities, employ capital, own or lease property or maintain an office in New York City.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicHorse Race Admissions Tax
A tax on Horse Racing admissions.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicHotel Room Occupancy Tax
A tax on guests who occupy a hotel, motel, bed-and-breakfast, boardinghouse, or club/apartment room. The tax is based on the cost of the room rent.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicMortgage Recording Tax
A New York City tax charged for mortgages recorded on property in the five boroughs

Blue Bullet Point GraphicReal Property Transfer Tax (RPTT)
An excise tax on the transfer of real property located in New York City.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicRetail Beer, Wine and Liquor License Tax
A tax charged on each retail licensee for selling liquor, wine, or beer within New York City.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicTaxicab License Transfer Tax
A tax charge on every transfer of a taxicab license.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicUnincorporated Business Tax (UBT)
A tax charged to every individual or unincorporated business carrying on a full or partial trade or profession in New York City.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicUtility Tax
A tax on every utility and vendor of utility services doing business in New York City.


NYC Taxes Administered by the State
New York State collects the following New York City taxes with Finance:

Blue Bullet Point GraphicMotor Vehicle Use Tax
A tax charged to New York City owners or lessees who garage a motor vehicle in New York City.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicBeer and Liquor Excise Tax
A tax charged to distributors and noncommercial importers of beer and liquor used or sold in New York City.

Blue Bullet Point GraphicSales and Use Tax
A tax on the sale of tangible personal property and certain services.


also

* An "iPod tax" that charges state and local sales tax for "digitally delivered entertainment services" - in other words, that new Beyonce song you download.
* State sales tax at movie theaters, sporting events, taxis, buses, limousines and cable and satellite TV and radio.
* Costlier driving with the repeal of the 8-cents-per-gallon sales tax cap on motor and diesel motor fuel, plus and increase in the auto rental tax.
* Tuition increases at SUNY and CUNY, $620 and $600 a year respectively.
* A 50 cent tax on cigars. The current tax is equal to 37% of the wholesale price, or 34 cents a cigar.
* No more sales tax break on clothes and shoes worth $110 or less, except during two weeks a year.
* Higher taxes on wine, beer and flavored malt beverages. And an 18% tax on non-nutritional drinks like soda.
* The rich would pay more for luxury items through an additional 5% tax imposed on cars costing more than $60,000, aircraft costing more than $500,000, yachts costing at least $200,000 and jewelry and furs costing in excess of $20,000.
* In addition, a host of a fees, including those related to motor vehicle licensing and registration, parks and auto insurance, would go up, as would various state-imposed fines.
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