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What? That's not true at all. Everyone else is not SOL. Are there problems with everyone getting the healthcare they should be getting? Absolutely. Is there a problem with everyone getting the healthcare they need? No way. Don't buy into the alarmist attitudes purveyed by those who want to control healthcare in the US.oVo wrote:If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
Wait, what the hell is the difference between healthcare you should be getting and healthcare you need?thegreekdog wrote:What? That's not true at all. Everyone else is not SOL. Are there problems with everyone getting the healthcare they should be getting? Absolutely. Is there a problem with everyone getting the healthcare they need? No way. Don't buy into the alarmist attitudes purveyed by those who want to control healthcare in the US.oVo wrote:If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
I don't know - getting a nose job vs. surgery after a heart attack; or meds for your sluggish thyroid vs. treatment for a gunshot wound?Snorri1234 wrote:Wait, what the hell is the difference between healthcare you should be getting and healthcare you need?thegreekdog wrote:What? That's not true at all. Everyone else is not SOL. Are there problems with everyone getting the healthcare they should be getting? Absolutely. Is there a problem with everyone getting the healthcare they need? No way. Don't buy into the alarmist attitudes purveyed by those who want to control healthcare in the US.oVo wrote:If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
Uhm...a nose job isn't exactly healthcare you should be getting.thegreekdog wrote:I don't know - getting a nose job vs. surgery after a heart attack; or meds for your sluggish thyroid vs. treatment for a gunshot wound?Snorri1234 wrote:Wait, what the hell is the difference between healthcare you should be getting and healthcare you need?thegreekdog wrote:What? That's not true at all. Everyone else is not SOL. Are there problems with everyone getting the healthcare they should be getting? Absolutely. Is there a problem with everyone getting the healthcare they need? No way. Don't buy into the alarmist attitudes purveyed by those who want to control healthcare in the US.oVo wrote:If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
I'm not a brit. And I'm interrested in US healthcare because it's such a good example of the US-mentality of trying to prop up a broken system simply because they are afraid of being "socialist". Also because some guy told me that we foreigners should always laugh at your system because it's so gosh-darn retarded.thegreekdog wrote:Ironically, I'm one of those people that used to take medication for a sluggish thyroid. I don't take it anymore. Because I'm too lazy to go to the doctor's to get another prescription.
Why are you Brits so interested in US healthcare anyway? It seems the biggest proponents of US government-mandated/controlled healthcare on this website are English. Are you guys not getting the good healthcare over here or something?
THURSDAY, June 4, 2009 (Health.com) — This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60% of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.
Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50% in a six-year period, from 46% in 2001 to 62% in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.
This would be a really good argument if the study didn't mention a few problems with your line of thought.thegreekdog wrote:Words.
This is actually the fault of the system and not of the people's irresponsibility with money. They shouldn't be blamed for the insurance-company screwing them over, nor should they be blamed for suddenly getting fucking sick.study wrote:Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.
“That was actually the predominant problem in patients in our study—78% of them had health insurance, but many of them were bankrupted anyway because there were gaps in their coverage like co-payments and deductibles and uncovered services,” says Dr. Woolhandler. “Other people had private insurance but got so sick that they lost their job and lost their insurance.”
No actually, you pretty much are.thegreekdog wrote:Nah, I'm not a dick.
Treating people so they don't die isn't the same as getting shit handed to you.I just live in the real world where people don't get shit handed to them so they can watch American Idol on their flatscreens.
Well thanks very much for a quote with no meaning at all. The fact that people already had debt doesn't change the fact that they had insurance. If I get insurance I shouldn't expect to suddenly pay for my healthcare because the insurance-company says they don't want to pay. The mere fact that medical expenses were a factor is a sure sign of the system being complete and utter shit.But, I'll just keep working for the government for four months of the damn year until everyone gets everything "for free." And by the way, here's a quote from your article before you go spouting off -
However, Peter Cunningham, PhD, a senior fellow at the Center for Studying Health System Change, a nonpartisan policy research organization in Washington, D.C., isn’t completely convinced. He says it’s often hard to tell in which cases medical bills add to the bleak financial picture without being directly responsible for the bankruptcies.
“I’m not sure that it is correct to say that medical problems were the direct cause of all of these bankruptcies,” he says. “In most of these cases, it’s going to be medical expenses and other things, other debt that is accumulating.”
No but seriously, keep denying the facts to justify your beliefs. And keep ignoring my very good points.The study may overestimate the number of bankruptcies caused by medical bills yet underestimate the financial burden of health care on American families, because most people struggle along but don’t end up declaring bankruptcy, according to Cunningham.
“Bankruptcy is the most extreme or final step for people who are having problems paying medical bills,” he says. “Medical bills and medical costs are an issue that can very easily and in pretty short order overwhelm a lot families who are on otherwise solid financial ground, including those with private insurance.”
His group’s research found that medical bills unduly stress 1 in 5 familie
The NHS has never treated me like an animal,in fact it saved my life, I would be interested in knowing why your brother considered he was so badly dealt with,simply not pampered is probably nearer the mark.thegreekdog wrote:I don't know - getting a nose job vs. surgery after a heart attack; or meds for your sluggish thyroid vs. treatment for a gunshot wound?Snorri1234 wrote:Wait, what the hell is the difference between healthcare you should be getting and healthcare you need?thegreekdog wrote:What? That's not true at all. Everyone else is not SOL. Are there problems with everyone getting the healthcare they should be getting? Absolutely. Is there a problem with everyone getting the healthcare they need? No way. Don't buy into the alarmist attitudes purveyed by those who want to control healthcare in the US.oVo wrote:If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
You are absolutely correct, I did start this thread and you did derail the other thread...GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:What a hypocrite! you started this thread, because I derailed a thread?
Of course I've "got it" after all I started this thread... remember? I did not change the subject hereGENERAL STONEHAM wrote:The subject is about immigration got it?
Did they all commit crimes in your community or are they incarcerated for being illegal aliens ?GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:ONE THIRD of all prisoners in our County Jail are illegal aliens
Right you are. And we already do that. What's your point again?Snorri1234 wrote:Treating people so they don't die isn't the same as getting shit handed to you.
You haven't made any good points. You put a link up to an article, which I read, which has two conflicting points, the overall gist of the article being that healthcare costs contribute to bankruptcy. There may be other debt there, there may not be, we just don't know. But, you know what, let's just base what we're going to do about healthcare solely based on five or so statistics that don't really show anything. These aren't "facts" that I'm denying, I'm denying conclusions based on data provided by a study that does not indicate what the data really shows. But, hey, you keep on accusing me of denying facts and ignoring "good" points little buddy. That's the surest way to win an argument (at least in the US and on the CC forums).Snorri1234 wrote:No but seriously, keep denying the facts to justify your beliefs. And keep ignoring my very good points.
Probably a combination of waiting for 4 or 5 hours in an emergency room with appendicitis along with not being pampered. It was probably a shock to him that he was not take care of right away. I'm not sure. I would say to ask him (he is a registered user), but he doesn't log in anymore.joecoolfrog wrote:The NHS has never treated me like an animal,in fact it saved my life, I would be interested in knowing why your brother considered he was so badly dealt with,simply not pampered is probably nearer the mark.thegreekdog wrote:I don't know - getting a nose job vs. surgery after a heart attack; or meds for your sluggish thyroid vs. treatment for a gunshot wound?Snorri1234 wrote:Wait, what the hell is the difference between healthcare you should be getting and healthcare you need?thegreekdog wrote:What? That's not true at all. Everyone else is not SOL. Are there problems with everyone getting the healthcare they should be getting? Absolutely. Is there a problem with everyone getting the healthcare they need? No way. Don't buy into the alarmist attitudes purveyed by those who want to control healthcare in the US.oVo wrote:If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
You are really just an asshole aren't you?GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:
The subject is about immigration got it?
Ok, our healthcare system is broken. But to have illegal aliens using our hospitals and pushing our hospitals into bankruptcy. Just look at the affect that illegal aliens have on the healthcare system in California. The amazing thing is that a illegal aliens who's pregnant, rushes over our border and drops an "anchor baby" and IT becomes an AMERICAN citizen. FUCKING MAGIC, if you ask me!
Making the 12 million plus illegal aliens legal, will invite millions more from Mexico, due to being in the family of said immigrant.
Illegal aliens cheapen our wages and place a burden on our already stretched AMERICAN taxpayer. Why should they get through the back door, when millions more go through legal loopholes to become a legal resident.
To go through our immigration process, you have to go through a "background check." This is to make sure that you aren't a criminal or anarchist. ONE THIRD of all prisoners in our County Jail are illegal aliens, enough said!
Dial 1 for ENGLISH
Dial 2 for DEPORTATION
You don't do that. You do a shitty patch-up job to prevent people dying immediately. The fact that you have diabetes-patients losing limbs because they don't get a good treatment is fucked up.thegreekdog wrote:Right you are. And we already do that. What's your point again?Snorri1234 wrote:Treating people so they don't die isn't the same as getting shit handed to you.
Bullshit. My post didn't just consist of a link. Just because you avoid questions that might make you admit DENY NEARLY EVERYONE healthcare might be morally bankrupt and evil doesnt mean you win.You haven't made any good points. You put a link up to an article, which I read, which has two conflicting points, the overall gist of the article being that healthcare costs contribute to bankruptcy. There may be other debt there, there may not be, we just don't know. But, you know what, let's just base what we're going to do about healthcare solely based on five or so statistics that don't really show anything. These aren't "facts" that I'm denying, I'm denying conclusions based on data provided by a study that does not indicate what the data really shows. But, hey, you keep on accusing me of denying facts and ignoring "good" points little buddy. That's the surest way to win an argument (at least in the US and on the CC forums).
Actually, you are very much denying the healthcare problems that exist. You support a system that costs you more and might screw you anyway because you think that even though people in Europe and Canada have less complaints about their care it will never work.There are necessities in life - food, clothing, housing, and healthcare. The government does not subsidize or control to a large extent, any of these things. Instead, people work for a living to be able to pay for these things. While I'm not denying that there are healthcare problems in the United States, I don't find government-run healthcare to be the answer.
Uh..what's sultanofsurreal-esque about my comments? (wow that's a weird word.)thegreekdog wrote:WRONG snorri... a thousand times wrong. First of all, I'm not some uneducated jackass from Alabama or some rich asshole living in a mansion in California, so you can leave your bullshit Sultanofsurreal-esque comments to yourself.
My point is that you're denying the actual problems. Yes you admit that there's a problem, you just act like these problems aren't directly caused by the capitalist system.I think you've read every one of my posts in this thread and others on the healthcare issue. You should know by now that I'm not denying there is a problem in the United States.
Well that's fine. You're just dismissing the fact that the government won't actually be in charge aside from just paying the bills.What I am denying, and what I will continue to deny, is that the EFFING GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF HEALTHCARE. Read that... read it, read it, read it, read it.
This doesn't make me believe you've read any of my posts.If you want to argue whether there is a problem in the US, argue with someone else. I don't want to pay, through taxes, for other peoples' bullshit healthcare so they can have a goddamn $50,000 effing car. That's what a lot of supporters of these plans are proposing.
Haha.I want to do what the AMA wants to do. You know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE EFFING DOCTORS! They aren't politicians, they're doctors. Do they want to do what is in the best interest for doctors? You bet. But, that's okay with me because their plan would do what's in the best interest for the patients and the doctors, NOT the insurance companies.
Well yeah, that's why Obama is not actually gonna get real universal healthcare in. The companies don't want that.You think the insurance companies aren't giving loot to Obama and the other Dems? Of course they are.
Rather optimistic.I would like at least one thing in this country to become law because of something other than political contributions.
Unless the AMA plan magically makes us into perfectly rational beings I don't even care what it says. The reason the system isn't working is because profit-incentives is a terrible way to deal with healthcare.In any event, to change this to a more constructive discussion... I want you to read the AMA plan. If you're not going to do that, it's no use talking to you because you're a jackass.
America that glorious land of dreams, where you are more likely to sue than see a Doctor.Snorri1234 wrote:xelabale wrote:American healthcare/welfare - the envy of the world...jbrettlip wrote:joecoolfrog wrote:Looks like Mexicans are simply taking back what they had before....seems fair enough!
THey used to have free healthcare and welfare? Weird, I never knew that.
You should be inviting mexican health professionals to jump the border, then maybe the average american could afford healthcare1/3 of prisoners are illegal aliens, and 2/3rds of death row inmates, are innocent or mentally ill/retarded(only offended because they didn't receive proper health care)GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:Report this postReply with quote Re: GEN.STONEHAM's love of immigrants
by oVo on Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:32 pm
If you are an American of means, there are hospitals (that are nearly like spas) in India and Thailand who do reconstructive surgury etc. at 1/3 (or less) the cost in comparison to the US. The doctors are nearly all educated in the US and are extremely skilled at their specialties. Insurers will pay up for this as it saves them a lot of money... that they are obligated to pay anyway.
If you money in the bank and can afford healthcare in the United States it is amazing,
everyone else is SOL.
What a hypocrite! you started this thread, because I derailed a thread? Please save me your drivel!
The subject is about immigration got it?
Ok, our healthcare system is broken. But to have illegal aliens using our hospitals and pushing our hospitals into bankruptcy. Just look at the affect that illegal aliens have on the healthcare system in California. The amazing thing is that a illegal aliens who's pregnant, rushes over our border and drops an "anchor baby" and IT becomes an AMERICAN citizen. FUCKING MAGIC, if you ask me!
Making the 12 million plus illegal aliens legal, will invite millions more from Mexico, due to being in the family of said immigrant.
Illegal aliens cheapen our wages and place a burden on our already stretched AMERICAN taxpayer. Why should they get through the back door, when millions more go through legal loopholes to become a legal resident.
To go through our immigration process, you have to go through a "background check." This is to make sure that you aren't a criminal or anarchist. ONE THIRD of all prisoners in our County Jail are illegal aliens, enough said!
Dial 1 for ENGLISH
Dial 2 for DEPORTATION
I think these problems are a combination of things, one of which is the cost of healthcare, one of which is the lack of preventative healthcare (for whatever the reason... in my experience it's because people in the US eat like pigs and don't exercise and because people don't get preventative treatment because they choose not to). I don't know all of the reasons, but I'm not sure what "directly caused by the capitalist system" means.Snorri1234 wrote:My point is that you're denying the actual problems. Yes you admit that there's a problem, you just act like these problems aren't directly caused by the capitalist system.
Where do you get that idea? Do you think the government plan is just going to be welfare for healthcare? If that's what it is, that might be okay with me, I haven't really decided yet. It probably depends on who gets the money for healthcare. I have no problem paying for healthcare for the poor and indigent. I do it now anyway (as you've put it in a number of other posts).Snorri1234 wrote: Well that's fine. You're just dismissing the fact that the government won't actually be in charge aside from just paying the bills.
I also know a huge amount of doctors who disapprove of the US system, for various reasons. I don't know a single doctor who supports government-run healthcare. The doctors I know have a beef with insurance companies. So, let's fix that. And you know what? I don't have a problem with doctors wanting to make money. They work pretty god-damn hard, they go to a shitload of schooling. So I'm okay with them wanting to make some loot.Snorri1234 wrote:But go on and back doctors when I actually know a huge amount of doctors who dissaprove of the US system since it makes doctors businessmen instead of people who should be caring about making their patients healthy.
Just read the plan dude, it takes 20 minutes at most. It tries to take away profit incentives. It's in the plan. I guess ignorance is truly bliss in your case.Snorri1234 wrote:Unless the AMA plan magically makes us into perfectly rational beings I don't even care what it says. The reason the system isn't working is because profit-incentives is a terrible way to deal with healthcare.
By directly caused I mean that people don't get preventative healthcare because they can't afford it. They don't "choose not to get care", they are unable to get care.thegreekdog wrote:I think these problems are a combination of things, one of which is the cost of healthcare, one of which is the lack of preventative healthcare (for whatever the reason... in my experience it's because people in the US eat like pigs and don't exercise and because people don't get preventative treatment because they choose not to). I don't know all of the reasons, but I'm not sure what "directly caused by the capitalist system" means.Snorri1234 wrote:My point is that you're denying the actual problems. Yes you admit that there's a problem, you just act like these problems aren't directly caused by the capitalist system.
Over here it's just that the government has made it illegal for anyone not to have insurance and illegal for insurance-companies to reject you or charge you any more than other patients or deny you any medical procedure. The hospitals are run like bussineses who get money per patient from the insurance companies and the gov (throught taxes) and the real way they make a profit is by making deals with insurance companies and do things basically like any business.Where do you get that idea? Do you think the government plan is just going to be welfare for healthcare? If that's what it is, that might be okay with me, I haven't really decided yet. It probably depends on who gets the money for healthcare. I have no problem paying for healthcare for the poor and indigent. I do it now anyway (as you've put it in a number of other posts).
I have no problem with doctors making money either, hell I wouldn't be in this study if being a doctor payed like shit. But the key here is that they shouldn't be businessmen. Doctors in other countries aren't poor, they just don't have to worry about making money because they will make it anyway. My dad earns enough money to put me and my brothers and sister through college, own three cars and go on holiday twice a year.I also know a huge amount of doctors who disapprove of the US system, for various reasons. I don't know a single doctor who supports government-run healthcare. The doctors I know have a beef with insurance companies. So, let's fix that. And you know what? I don't have a problem with doctors wanting to make money. They work pretty god-damn hard, they go to a shitload of schooling. So I'm okay with them wanting to make some loot.
