ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Phatscotty]

yet the mechanic can still hold the principle to not bullshit people by assuring them they can do a job they cannot do

still trying to figure out what you are getting at. Why would my first paragraph be required to be about knowledge? Why can't it be about limited government as a principle

[BigBallinStalin]

yet the mechanic can still hold the principle to not bullshit people by assuring them they can do a job they cannot do

Principles alone don't create good enough voters. What also matters is "what they understand" and "tacit knowledge" (e.g. learning by doing. See: Alexis de Tocqueville - Democracy in America--specifically, "self-government," "the people schools itself," "art of association," "township," etc).

To extend that mechanic metaphor, the uninformed mechanic thinks that the engine runs on urine. His principle could be "freedom of urine" or whatever, but principles alone are not all that matters.

[PLAYER57832]

Will the costs of your poor decisions be significantly felt by you and your favored politicians?

What, specifically, are the poor decisions made by the voters in question?

Choosing and promoting particular politicians who provided that age-old meme: "I have a plan" (Obamacare). The decisions were made poorly because the voters were (and still are) uninformed.

How might voters have effected a better health care law had they been better informed? The number of politicians to choose from is not particularly large.

Begin by actually looking at systems that really do work in other countries, instead of just pretending that only US ideas, and private basis ideas are worth considering.

[Night Strike]

Begin by actually looking at systems that really do work in other countries, instead of just pretending that only US ideas, and private basis ideas are worth considering.

Or you could begin looking to the private sector instead of always looking to the government. Why is the government your savior of everything?

[PLAYER57832]

Begin by actually looking at systems that really do work in other countries, instead of just pretending that only US ideas, and private basis ideas are worth considering.

Or you could begin looking to the private sector instead of always looking to the government. Why is the government your savior of everything?

There is no fully private universal healthcare system in existance. I am suggesting considering those systems that actually work already might be a good place to start considering reforms of our own system.

[Symmetry]

Begin by actually looking at systems that really do work in other countries, instead of just pretending that only US ideas, and private basis ideas are worth considering.

Or you could begin looking to the private sector instead of always looking to the government. Why is the government your savior of everything?

Where has the private sector provided effective universal healthcare NS?

[BigBallinStalin]

Did the origin of medicine and insurance arise by government mandate or by the interactions of many within markets?

[PLAYER57832]

E.g. an uninformed mechanic is a mechanic who doesn't know much about fixing cars, but nonetheless gets to predominantly rely on his feelings and beliefs when fixing your car. He lacks an education/understanding on what's he doing and can't really see/understand the outcomes.

Your analogy works for cars becuase there is a defined outcome. It does not work when the best outcome is not fully understood. Medicine is one case where that happens.

Too often people think they want x, but in truth y is really better. That data to come to that conclusion is long and drawn out, so its pretty easy for a lot of "quick fix" folks to come in and pretend that they have some greater expertise, when its really just superficial pretense.

Case in point.. use of antibiotics.

[PLAYER57832]

Did the origin of medicine and insurance arise by government mandate or by the interactions of many within markets?

Neither.

Your focus on "markets solve all" is truly blinding you to real solutions. The market was a vast improvement over the prior systems, mostly fuedalism. However, things evolve. Socialism might have been put forward as "the" "real solution", but really all it did was substitute one set of problems for several others.

The time to pretend that we can adhere to any of these systems solely is long gone. The market won't fix healthcare, becuase healthcare is not, fundamentally a market issue.

[BigBallinStalin]

E.g. an uninformed mechanic is a mechanic who doesn't know much about fixing cars, but nonetheless gets to predominantly rely on his feelings and beliefs when fixing your car. He lacks an education/understanding on what's he doing and can't really see/understand the outcomes.

Your analogy works for cars becuase there is a defined outcome. It does not work when the best outcome is not fully understood. Medicine is one case where that happens.

Too often people think they want x, but in truth y is really better. That data to come to that conclusion is long and drawn out, so its pretty easy for a lot of "quick fix" folks to come in and pretend that they have some greater expertise, when its really just superficial pretense.

Case in point.. use of antibiotics.

Are voters informed or uninformed?

[BigBallinStalin]

Did the origin of medicine and insurance arise by government mandate or by the interactions of many within markets?

Neither.

Oh, so what's your answer?

(the deleted part wasn't an answer).

[PLAYER57832]

Did the origin of medicine and insurance arise by government mandate or by the interactions of many within markets?

Neither.

Oh, so what's your answer?

(the deleted part wasn't an answer).

You gave no option that was real.
This, like most things, arose from a combination of both the options you provided AND other factors that you fail to even mention.

Medicine arose because people need to feel better and at some point, those providing the care need some kind of payment.

Insurance arose initially as a way for people to control their healthcare costs by pooling money (teachers union.. forget which state). It then was expanded because private employers wanted to pay certain employers better, but were prohibited from increasing salaries during the war. It continued because they faught for and got a tax exemption and saw great benefit from being able to provide more benefit for their employees, essentially with the help of all taxpayers. Employees just liked getting healthcare and also liked the idea of this money, the benefit coming tax free.

Except, as we see.. it really benefitted no one in the long run and has led to a system that is very, very skewed toward employers and not to delivering good care for the most people overall.

So, yes, my answer was THE answer... neither of the options you wanted to focus upon really answered the question.

[Night Strike]

There is no fully private universal healthcare system in existance. I am suggesting considering those systems that actually work already might be a good place to start considering reforms of our own system.

Universal healthcare doesn't work in the government system either.

Insurance arose initially as a way for people to control their healthcare costs by pooling money (teachers union.. forget which state). It then was expanded because private employers wanted to pay certain employers better, but were prohibited from increasing salaries during the war.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that it was the government that caused the current problems. Now, how does MORE government fix those same problems?

[BigBallinStalin]

Did the origin of medicine and insurance arise by government mandate or by the interactions of many within markets?

Neither.

Oh, so what's your answer?

(the deleted part wasn't an answer).

You gave no option that was real.

So governments and markets don't exist?

(yes, I read your full response. You're insisting on not calling activities based on voluntary exchange as part of the market, which is absurd).

[Woodruff]

Begin by actually looking at systems that really do work in other countries, instead of just pretending that only US ideas, and private basis ideas are worth considering.

Or you could begin looking to the private sector instead of always looking to the government. Why is the government your savior of everything?

I can say that I truly believe there are some things that DO NOT AT ALL belong in "the private sector" (by which I mean capitalism). In my personal opinion, capitalism doesn't work well when you're talking about something like health care, because it is in the interests of the provider to scrimp and save, which tends to be bad for the customer/patient.

I know BBS will claim that when some businesses aren't taking care of people the right way, those customers will simply move to a company that will, or that company will be created. But the health insurance industry shows us that is certainly not the case. When they're all basically doing the same thing, there is no choice.

Straight capitalism simply cannot work for the same reason that straight communism cannot work. People suck.

[PLAYER57832]

There is no fully private universal healthcare system in existance. I am suggesting considering those systems that actually work already might be a good place to start considering reforms of our own system.

Universal healthcare doesn't work in the government system either.

Then why do so many citizens of other countries, with those systems, utterly disagree?

You frame your ideas on a belief, but have never really bothered to investigate.

Insurance arose initially as a way for people to control their healthcare costs by pooling money (teachers union.. forget which state). It then was expanded because private employers wanted to pay certain employers better, but were prohibited from increasing salaries during the war.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that it was the government that caused the current problems. Now, how does MORE government fix those same problems?

Nice try, but no. Read again. It was private people and private employers who pushed for what we have now. Government, as always in a Republic/Democracy, is just a set of responses to what people request..

[PLAYER57832]

Begin by actually looking at systems that really do work in other countries, instead of just pretending that only US ideas, and private basis ideas are worth considering.

Or you could begin looking to the private sector instead of always looking to the government. Why is the government your savior of everything?

I can say that I truly believe there are some things that DO NOT AT ALL belong in "the private sector" (by which I mean capitalism). In my personal opinion, capitalism doesn't work well when you're talking about something like health care, because it is in the interests of the provider to scrimp and save, which tends to be bad for the customer/patient.

I know BBS will claim that when some businesses aren't taking care of people the right way, those customers will simply move to a company that will, or that company will be created. But the health insurance industry shows us that is certainly not the case. When they're all basically doing the same thing, there is no choice.

Straight capitalism simply cannot work for the same reason that straight communism cannot work. People suck.

There are plenty of other examples of this, but that gets off topic... and BBS won't bother thinking about it.

[Neoteny]

Took me, like, a few hours.

It definitely took me longer. And I read at a pretty decent clip.

Did you just skim?

I exaggerated a little. I left out some bits that I felt weren't super important as well. Point is that it's not that long of a read if you are a True American (TM) and want to know what your government is up to. Scotty could have read a page a day and be done by now, or used his ban time to read it instead of howling about Obama on CC, but he's not actually concerned with reading the bill; he just wants to make a point.

[AndyDufresne]

I exaggerated a little. I left out some bits that I felt weren't super important as well. Point is that it's not that long of a read if you are a True American (TM) and want to know what your government is up to. Scotty could have read a page a day and be done by now, or used his ban time to read it instead of howling about Obama on CC, but he's not actually concerned with reading the bill; he just wants to make a point.

--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

Did that stick fall outta his butt?

[AndyDufresne]

I added the earlier frames for you. Also, I remember watching this in real time and did not notice how not-even-close Kirk's fist gets to McCoy's face.


--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

Thanks. He almost fell over after his judo kick.

[Lootifer]

I added the earlier frames for you. Also, I remember watching this in real time and did not notice how not-even-close Kirk's fist gets to McCoy's face.


--Andy

Thats fricken awesome!

[Phatscotty]

the efficiency of the court system, combined with the compassion of the IRS

[AndyDufresne]

Wibbly wobbly

I've always wondered what it is like to live from manufactured issue to issue. I feel it is probably a lot like this:





--Andy