Skyrim Mafia Endgame: Hail Sithis! (3/18) Skyrim Wins!

[new guy1]

Hey guys, Ive been in NO, so Im reading up on the game. My first thing is I seem to have forgotten where everyone thinks they have a case on X. Sure I dont have a better one, but that doesnt mean we should lynch town. I hate it when everyone always prefers an uneducated lynch over a NL, and so I will not support the case. However, having my name brought up again by Pancake frustrates me as anything he brings back up at this point has already been answered at least once and so I really cant defend it.

[pancakemix]

So let's go back to where all this started with newguy's unprovoked softclaim.

I have found that I never really get the hang of the joke voting and so when I do post regularly I find I am pressured much more then when I am quiet. Therefore whether I am town or not it helps to keep me from having to claim, therefore keeping me from revealing powerroles and whatnot. This is hinting Im not a VT, as when Im a VT I speak alot more as I dont have much to lose.

Not helpful, and was the target of much scrutiny. I'll summarize all of the shitstorm by saying that most agreed that it was a town slip and we let it go.

Next, / presents a case on newguy for his vote still being on his joke vote.

@ Pancake, my discussion with Xenhu was a direct result of his case on me, for what I believed was a skipped premise, and a possible link to an unjustified defense against an accusation directed at Iron Bird, I was simply questioning weather he could answer what I viewed as logical inconsistencies.

I agree with some of what you say, however, even disregarding newguy's slip (or whatever) I am finding increasingly unacceptable that he and clever are still on joke votes.
since it seems we are currently unable to pressure jak with time running out, I will switch to newguy, he is active enough to post elsewhere, has been online several times in the last few days, but refuses to respond to why he is joke voting with time running out after three days, or even post for that matter. http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3729783
Unvote vote newguy

For brevity's sake, I am going to link to the exchange that follows. In summary, this ends up not really going anywhere, with newguy's final retort being "I said it's just my tendency". Not really much of an argument.

Allow me to invoke the opinion of a now confirmed townie to sum it up:

Onto the serious topic of the day, I like the discussion between New Guy and /, I don't think New Guy was a town slip, he had me convinced until his latest post.

Actually now I remember saying very vividly that I dont post much on day one because everytime I do I am called out on it for some reason unseen to me till they point it out. BAM! Whole case shot down by a point that was already there.

It seems like a last attempt to get away from / without answering his post fully, and just posting fluff, with this you gain a wanted level +1
Unvote, Vote New Guy

I'm not going to go into the "sarcasm" debate for pot/kettle reasons, but I'll say boredom is no excuse for not contributing.

Finally, there's a little bit about claiming to have read but actually skimming that comes up here. He tries to write it off as saying he'll go back and look, but he's already said he's read through a few times. Doesn't make sense. That didn't get pointed out, I think because Clever was "joking", which led to me getting confused about who was joking about what, etc.

Hey guys, Ive been in NO, so Im reading up on the game. My first thing is I seem to have forgotten where everyone thinks they have a case on X. Sure I dont have a better one, but that doesnt mean we should lynch town. I hate it when everyone always prefers an uneducated lynch over a NL, and so I will not support the case. However, having my name brought up again by Pancake frustrates me as anything he brings back up at this point has already been answered at least once and so I really cant defend it.

First of all, you've been given a pass for the past two days because there was always something better, more concrete to go on. It's always been little things, but a lot of little things add up to one big thing. Second, it doesn't matter if you've defended yourself against it, it doesn't mean you've defended yourself to the satisfaction of anyone unless they say so. Again, better cases to follow. Doesn't mean you should keep getting a pass.

...that a slip?

[new guy1]

Sorry, went out to dinner. And I basically see you reviewing what everyone brought up, so I will again state I can in no way, shape or form defend from your acusations, as I have already argued all those points. So though its slips, my point is still valid which is that I have attempted to defend from all the accusations you could bring forth. Until you have more support, I will keep my claim to myself.

[pancakemix]

Sorry, went out to dinner. And I basically see you reviewing what everyone brought up, so I will again state I can in no way, shape or form defend from your acusations, as I have already argued all those points. So though its slips, my point is still valid which is that I have attempted to defend from all the accusations you could bring forth. Until you have more support, I will keep my claim to myself.

Bullshit. I just got done explaining why you having explained it already doesn't mean you've explained it well or sufficiently. There are also things you HAVEN'T explained, so I suggest you actually read my post and try again.

Well, since you've acknowledged that your comment on XenHu was a slip, Vote NewGuy

[new guy1]

I said that I ATTEMPTED to defend from all accusations. I acknowledged they were slips, I did not acknowledge they were scum slips, and I saw nothing new in those posts, only reviews and links which I know lead to more review, so no thank you, I dont think I need to read again, more like you need to stop being so eager. Watch the way you word things and how I word them and you might notice nothing in that post is scummy, you only see it as scummy because you are not looking for my innocence you are only looking for things to condemn guilt.

[soundman]

Unvote. Just wanted to push a little to get an answer. I'm satisfied for the time being. With that said, I still think New Guy is most likely town so I won't be voting him unless something more major comes to light.

Also, wtf was this:

wow night already? I'm not even all caught up yet.

oh well, still can't wait to see how my role affects the night. /)^3^(\

Good night all!

-SG7 ( )

Vote:SG7

You've not only provided zero to the game up until this point, you've also done what I consider mod-kill worthy.


-X

I agree that SG7 has contributed very little; but all he has done is soft-claim a role with a night action - I don't understand what he has done wrong to be worthy of a modkill,

He power-claimed AT NIGHT! That doesn't bother you. Does this?

Hey I haven't forgotten about this game!

I'm catching up (pg 14 so far) it'll be slow but tomorrow I hope to be all caught up. I'll read recent things so is there anything I should be looking for while reading up or should I just take note of general things? thnx

See you later.

-SG7 ( )

It was the last thing he said pre-lynch. This kind of behavior gets a free pass now?

I'm leaving my vote on SG7 for the time being. At this point, it has no better place to go. As I've said before, the amount of people actually playing<the amount of people in the game. So you'll excuse me if I'm less than enthused at this point.

(And frankly, I was hoping to turn up dead today)

-X

Actually that does bother me. I just got caught on Edoc's case and forgot about that. He also says this after your post:

Well I just got a role I don't get everygame. Is it a bad thing to be excited about it? (@mod, i hope this won't get me modkilled)

So? You still shouldn't have power-claimed at all! Vote SG7.

[pancakemix]

I said that I ATTEMPTED to defend from all accusations. I acknowledged they were slips, I did not acknowledge they were scum slips, and I saw nothing new in those posts, only reviews and links which I know lead to more review, so no thank you, I dont think I need to read again, more like you need to stop being so eager. Watch the way you word things and how I word them and you might notice nothing in that post is scummy, you only see it as scummy because you are not looking for my innocence you are only looking for things to condemn guilt.

And I'm telling you your attempts are crap. It's a bunch of cop outs and deflections. I want actual answers, not "I can't because I tried once already."

You're either covering your ass or you're not following my logic here:

-You said "lynch a town" in reference to the XenHu case.
-Since you referenced XenHu as town, you'd have to know that for a fact.
-Provided you aren't hiding privileged info, the only way you could be certain of XenHu's alignment is if you were scum.
-Noting this, I asked if it was a slip, more as a rhetorical question in the hopes of pointing it out to others.
-You stated "there were slips". Given my question, I can only assume you were referencing it, therefore admitting guilt.

It's one or the other or you're still just goddamn skimming my post. Which you should really stop doing.

Apparently, I have to spell it out for you:

1. Your response to /'s case about you sticking to your joke vote and generally not contributing:

Actually now I remember saying very vividly that I dont post much on day one because everytime I do I am called out on it for some reason unseen to me till they point it out. BAM! Whole case shot down by a point that was already there.

Read: I don't want to post because I'll f*ck up. That is a BAD answer. I fail to see what's so difficult about carefully reading/constructing one's post until no fuckups remain. It's a lazy copout answer, and you go on acting like it's the end-all-be-all of responses. So I'll pose /'s question again, in his own words:

I'm saying if you think the submariners are being insincere when they claim they will reread, you should mention it, just mention whatever you notice, that's helpful too if you are unable to construct a complete case alone, otherwise there is no chance to win, the majority refuse to get anything done and we will go to night having accomplished nothing, apathy only helps mafia, cult, and serial killers.

I'll add what he said to clever about the subject:

It is abundantly essential we each make our intentions clear, I have commented on cases and made points of my own, newguy did not, what is it you think? Do you honestly think not one single point made today is valid enough to pursue? That we are completely unable to find anything new? That we shouldn't even go with a gut feeling so we can get new data for later? Are you in favor of not pressuring anyone at this point, if so, why are we even wasting our time with this day?

2.When XenHu called you out for missing the vote count even though you claimed to have read through more than once, your response was this:

Haha, isnt it funny how you BOTH skimmed the part where I said if I finish other obligations that I would go back and look? Christ people, Im seeing an alarming trend of skimming. Should I yell at you for that? And Clever, glad you could make it, mind adding something of substance or do you just feel like echoing?

A very snarky response to a valid complaint. The truth is, it would have taken you only a moment to mentally calculate how many votes were cast and where CM5 stood after that, ESPECIALLY if you've already read through a couple times. That's not an excuse. Pretty much I can only assume that you were caught skimming, unless you have a better response. If you don't, fine. It's perfectly acceptable to not have an answer, it'll just get you lynched.

I'm also going to point out I shouldn't have to be typing up all this info. I clearly outlined all of this not five posts prior. If you would read what I wrote, it'd have been simpler for everyone. So yes, I do think you ought to read over that again. Maybe you'll discover something you missed before.

I'm sorry, but when did refusal to respond to a case stop being scummy? And when did repeating questions that got no answers become "looking only for guilt"? Perhaps, I'm looking objectively at your posts and only finding scummy things?

[new guy1]

Wow... I have no rebuttle for that. I will be going to bed in about 30 minutes, but that is a damn good case that I honestly have no real comebacks for. Not saying Im mafia as I am not and my claim/death will show that, but if you alone ask me to claim before I go to bed then I will claim. But damn... nice.

[new guy1]

Sorry for the double post, but I dont know if its just cause Im tired or what, but after that I can see why I look scummy o.O... It seems pretty overwhelming but I am going to try to respond to it all... for the sake of length I will not quote the post, just respond:

Blue part: My point was that you said I never responded to them and that I gave short ass responses. I was just pointing out the "attempted" part, meaning they may not be good, but I tried to respond.

Green part: I said Xenhu was town because I believe him to be town, I dont think thats a scum slip, it is scummy that I would be so sure about him, but I do not believe it to be a scum slip. I didnt mean to sound so sure that he is town as I know that this is scummy, but I wanted to get my point across that I believe him to be town in this game. I will also add that I am not skimming and that GD is offensive to me and unnessesary, so please just leave it at the damn part. Its a game.

Red part: I dont need you to spell it out, I just believe the accuser should bring the evidence forward as it is the defense's part to defend, not to read through 10 pointless posts to get to the 1 they were talking about.
1st quote- sarcasm, and then my honest answer. Watch all my games and you should see I dont talk much day 1 and the answer is always the same (I hate day 1).
Xenhu's post, cant respond as it makes sense.

Purple part- I was saying that I couldnt respond with different answers and so if your reading for a case on me you might as well read passed answers. You are seeing a biased view as you are reading my posts automatically assuming I am scum, and so you dont see sense in my statements.

[XenHu]

Until you have more support, I will keep my claim to myself.

Thing is, he has support. All PCM is doing is bringing up issues that have been discussed before. I've said many of the same things to you myself. If I had known that all it would've taken for you to finally acknowledge them is colored fonts, I would've done that ages ago.

You are seeing a biased view as you are reading my posts automatically assuming I am scum, and so you dont see sense in my statements.

I'm not seeing sense in this statement. If he is really assuming you are scum, he(nor I) would've gone through all the trouble trying to explain to you why we think the way we do. The fact that we are doing so proves that baseless assumptions are the last thing being made here.


Unvote, Vote: Newguy

FOS: SG7

Seriously SG7, you've got some explaining to do. Especially if you are still alive tomorrow.

-X

[nagerous]

Not buying the XenHu case. Sure, he could have stabbed in the dark with an inactive, but he didn't. So what? As of right now, I think he's been one of the most pro-town players in this game and this case is tenuous at best.

Can I also point out that Wuunferth is not a Stormcloak, he just works in Windhelm? Thanks...

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Wuun ... e_Unliving

Make a case then If you don't like this one. I couldn't find anything better. Also, X has more then enough experience to appear pro town no matter his side.

Like I said, not a Stormcloak. All Holds have a wizard, those wizards don't change with the civil war.

As for a different case, how about the nag/newguy link? It's been noted several times and I don't think it should be overlooked. I'll bring it back more concretely later this evening.

Just catching up here, but that is a bit patronising on my part don't you think?

[nagerous]

Green part: I said Xenhu was town because I believe him to be town, I dont think thats a scum slip, it is scummy that I would be so sure about him, but I do not believe it to be a scum slip. .

Wow, you don't sound very positive there - that is like saying 'well I'm not sure if I just made a scum slip, I don't think I did'

Only scum would make slips in the first place. Regardless, you are playing appallingly and pancake is currently tearing you apart - though I am curious as to this link he seems to think there is between us.

vote new guy

[new guy1]

Green part: I said Xenhu was town because I believe him to be town, I dont think thats a scum slip, it is scummy that I would be so sure about him, but I do not believe it to be a scum slip. .

Wow, you don't sound very positive there - that is like saying 'well I'm not sure if I just made a scum slip, I don't think I did'

Only scum would make slips in the first place. Regardless, you are playing appallingly and pancake is currently tearing you apart - though I am curious as to this link he seems to think there is between us.

vote new guy

Read the surrounding conversation on that line. I acknowledged they were slips. He asked me if it was a slip. He did not say scum slip and I did not acknowledge a scum slip. I acknowledged a slip in speech. You people are making me laugh with your misuse of your own words, pretending to catch something when in all honesty you are making your questions sound different then the answers you are questioning. If you are going to vote me for the slip comment (which I explained already) then you might as well lable yourself bandwagoner. And I also answered to the statement pancake made, didnt read that far?

[new guy1]

I have 3 votes on me by my quick count, so get me to L2 and Ill claim. 2 more people .

[nagerous]

Green part: I said Xenhu was town because I believe him to be town, I dont think thats a scum slip, it is scummy that I would be so sure about him, but I do not believe it to be a scum slip. .

Wow, you don't sound very positive there - that is like saying 'well I'm not sure if I just made a scum slip, I don't think I did'

Only scum would make slips in the first place. Regardless, you are playing appallingly and pancake is currently tearing you apart - though I am curious as to this link he seems to think there is between us.

vote new guy

Read the surrounding conversation on that line. I acknowledged they were slips. He asked me if it was a slip. He did not say scum slip and I did not acknowledge a scum slip. I acknowledged a slip in speech. You people are making me laugh with your misuse of your own words, pretending to catch something when in all honesty you are making your questions sound different then the answers you are questioning. If you are going to vote me for the slip comment (which I explained already) then you might as well lable yourself bandwagoner. And I also answered to the statement pancake made, didnt read that far?

Of course I read everything - this bit stuck out of me as a clear example of dumbassness though. You're making statements like 'so and so is town', 'I don't think I made a scum slip there', you would do terrible in Court if you had been charged with a crime.

[new guy1]

Sorry for the triple post, but also Edoc even said at the beginning of the game (not saying he would back me at this point) that it is common for me to make errors, it is normal for me. Also, Im not egging you on or anything, but you will be disappointed in my claim as I might have played along with suggestions of people. Just saying .
PS- I wouldnt try to decifer that as you wont get it till I claim.

fastposted- I am not saying so and so is town, I am saying I believe so and so to be town. Also, I said I do not believe that (In other words, In my opinion) to be a scum slip, not that I dont think I made a slip. Therefore, you read it the wrong way, because as I said earlier, you people are not looking to prove innocence, only to make a quick lynch. This is another thing that I saw someone go over incorrectly, they were thinking I meant in the terms of a lynch (being no duh we are collecting evidence and making a lynch), which I meant as I have defended from the cases you have brought forth and yet you are trying to get me lynched regaurdless of how well (or bad) I argue and therefore you are not giving me a chance to prove my innocence, since you people want for me to be scum sooooo bad.

[new guy1]

Another point I saw was that "Its not hard to go through, make sure no slips exist, and post". This is something that I do not believe I should need to do, as since Im town I dont feel as though I need to go through the post to make sure no slips exist. Its funny because if I were actually mafia I would make little to no slips but since slips are abundant here obviously my logic would add to a simple conclusion. In conclusion, I see no case but for the players looking for answers and the mindless bandwagonners/innactives it looks like enough to have me lynched, we see different things .

[LSU Tiger Josh]

Another point I saw was that "Its not hard to go through, make sure no slips exist, and post". This is something that I do not believe I should need to do, as since Im town I dont feel as though I need to go through the post to make sure no slips exist. Its funny because if I were actually mafia I would make little to no slips but since slips are abundant here obviously my logic would add to a simple conclusion. In conclusion, I see no case but for the players looking for answers and the mindless bandwagonners/innactives it looks like enough to have me lynched, we see different things .

I won't even bother trying to point out the fail for this entire post you made since it is pointless.

[LSU Tiger Josh]

On second thought I'll go ahead and post it. This is what the former great conquer club member Aimless told me in my very first game of mafia here after I was just lynched as the very last mafia member.

Josh, now that the game is over, there's one thing I wanted to point out :

It is not a guarantteed win b/c with you as scum that would make the scum win. While it would be highly unlikely that all 3 scums would do that on the same day, it would also be a good reason to in fact do it. Nobody would suspect that it would happen. When called on it the person would just easily point out how that would be stupid and nobody is that stupid to do it which would in fact be a good reason to do it.

This argument is called a wifom. It is generally bad form to base an accusation on a wifom, as you are as likely to fool yourself as you are to get things right. When wifom arguments are made, they are a sign that the arguer is scum and trying to confuse people; I've used them a couple of times in the past for sport, but both of those times I was scum.

Furthermore, when making an argument like this, you have to be able to consider the game from the mafia's perspective. As a hypothetical, assume that Exile, nagerous and I were all scum, and that we were the only remaining scum in the game. Further, let's assume that the game is going badly for scum - scum has lost a couple of people in the first couple of days, and the numbers have swung against them.

So, scum's goal - make at least one member of scum look town. How to do this? A cop claim is a good way to pull it off, but requires sacrificing a scummate. Fortunately, one of the scummates is a terrorist - perfectly made for sacrificing. So, one scum claims cop, goes after the terrorist, the terrorist explodes to seal the deal - mission accomplished, two scum are still alive.

Now, let's consider the other scenario - scum one outs scum two as part of a cop claim. Scum two counter-claims scum one, and outs scum three (the terrorist). The terrorist blows himself up. Scum one gets lynched, but scum two looks like town. So, the final score - mission accomplished, but only one scum remains; ergo, a bad play compared to the above. It won't happen.

About the only time anything like this could happen is in a fight between a Godfather and an Usurper; however, if something like this does happen, the town should cry for joy, since the mafia is suiciding itself. Plus, if it does happen, one of the players involved will be revealed as Godfather or Usurper on death, which is a dead giveaway.

At any rate here, the point I'm trying to make is that you should be able to tell based upon my actions that I wasn't mafia; furthermore, assuming that you were town, and that I was lyncher, you should realize that the scenario I was pushing actually was the correct play for the town (well, it's possible that spin could have been scum, but if that were the case this discussion is unimportant). So, I was rather surprised you were arguing against it.

He later discovers that I was actually scum which was why I made that argument to begin with

[pancakemix]

Just catching up here, but that is a bit patronising on my part don't you think?

Yes, looking back, that connection was more tenuous that I recalled.

Another point I saw was that "Its not hard to go through, make sure no slips exist, and post". This is something that I do not believe I should need to do, as since Im town I dont feel as though I need to go through the post to make sure no slips exist. Its funny because if I were actually mafia I would make little to no slips but since slips are abundant here obviously my logic would add to a simple conclusion. In conclusion, I see no case but for the players looking for answers and the mindless bandwagonners/innactives it looks like enough to have me lynched, we see different things .

That makes no sense. Say you're town and do leave in slips. Anyone who's hunting scum will catch it and follow the trail. If all your posts are that sloppy they'll have a whole case to present. What this ultimately leads to is:

-A town lynch/claim
-A waste of time, because it's your fault that your posts are full of slips, not the person who saw them for latching onto them.

You could interpret clean posts as scum play, or you could interpret it as good play in general. Up to you.

While I'm at it, why do you keep hanging your claim in front of our faces like a carrot in front of a donkey's?

@LSU: God, I miss Aimless.

[new guy1]

Pancake: It would make sense to clean up my posts, but then I would feel like I wasnt completly expressing my opinions the way I wanted them heard. And also, in case you dont play many games with me, I always hang my claim in front of your faces and often the people arent bold enough to question the motives behind it, so I dont really know why I do, its more of a strategy that has proven its efficiency of detering people from questioning my role.

[edocsil]

Just catching up here, but that is a bit patronising on my part don't you think?

Yes, looking back, that connection was more tenuous that I recalled.

Another point I saw was that "Its not hard to go through, make sure no slips exist, and post". This is something that I do not believe I should need to do, as since Im town I dont feel as though I need to go through the post to make sure no slips exist. Its funny because if I were actually mafia I would make little to no slips but since slips are abundant here obviously my logic would add to a simple conclusion. In conclusion, I see no case but for the players looking for answers and the mindless bandwagonners/innactives it looks like enough to have me lynched, we see different things .

That makes no sense. Say you're town and do leave in slips. Anyone who's hunting scum will catch it and follow the trail. If all your posts are that sloppy they'll have a whole case to present. What this ultimately leads to is:

-A town lynch/claim
-A waste of time, because it's your fault that your posts are full of slips, not the person who saw them for latching onto them.

You could interpret clean posts as scum play, or you could interpret it as good play in general. Up to you.

While I'm at it, why do you keep hanging your claim in front of our faces like a carrot in front of a donkey's?

@LSU: God, I miss Aimless.

Shit, I wish I had been here a few years earlier. Anyhow, I tire of newguy's continued failure to process before he posts. It is a townies to appear as town to avoid wasting days with their pointless lynch. If you cannot grasp that you will continue to be useless this game. Meta only stretches so far.

Unvote vote newguy.

[new guy1]

Thats cool. I guess Im at L3 and have nobody helping me out, so I will just claim. Ralof, Stormcloak Remnant Survivor, I am obviously part of the stormcloaks and since I am a survivor role I actually believe the Thalmor to be the mafia, but that is just my opinion. I was talking about following along with someone's assumption that not VT meant power role, and that they did not include survivor. Im actually suprised that with my terrible defense and horrible sarcasm that you didnt think I was a jester . But either way, I did not let you know that I was not a powerrole because I know how survivors are viewed on this site and so it would have been bad to claim it. Either way, Im sure I will be lynched because I have not helped much this game and I have wasted alot of time and I am a survivor non the less. I obviously will ask that I am spared as I am no harm to either faction, but I know this will most likely be denied since I am the best choice for a lynch candidate. Thanks for the game guys, and Im sorry that I played with so much sarcasm and slips.

[edocsil]

Thats cool. I guess I'm at L3 and have nobody helping me out, so I will just claim. Ralof, Stormcloak Remnant Survivor, I am obviously part of the stormcloaks and since I am a survivor role I actually believe the Thalmor to be the mafia, but that is just my opinion. I was talking about following along with someone's assumption that not VT meant power role, and that they did not include survivor. I'm actually surprised that with my terrible defense and horrible sarcasm that you didn't think I was a jester . But either way, I did not let you know that I was not a power role because I know how survivors are viewed on this site and so it would have been bad to claim it. Either way, I'm sure I will be lynched because I have not helped much this game and I have wasted a lot of time and I am a survivor non the less. I obviously will ask that I am spared as I am no harm to either faction, but I know this will most likely be denied since I am the best choice for a lynch candidate. Thanks for the game guys, and Im sorry that I played with so much sarcasm and slips.

Yeah, you probably are going to get hung. Is there anyone else in your faction? If you are telling the truth it may help your allies to make us aware of their existence if not their identity.

[new guy1]

There is nobody else in my faction. I am a survivor of the civil war. I just want to survive. I have a just have a really really huge feeling that the thalmor are the bad guys. I am trying to live through the great war, I do believe.