Lightbulbs

[BigBallinStalin]

There is something seriously fucking wrong with you people.

How so?

[PLAYER57832]

There is something seriously fucking wrong with you people.

Must be the mercury from the CFL bulbs.

[Woodruff]

There is something seriously fucking wrong with you people.

I don't think there's any question of that. What took you so long to figure it out?

[keiths31]

There is something seriously fucking wrong with you people.

Cool. Thanks.

[jimboston]

No one is talking about renters... people who rent.

So people who rent are generally lower income than people who own, right?

So a renter is in a house... a light bulb blows. Now he has to buy an expensive bulb to replace the regular one that blew. That's cool though, cause he'll recoop the cost in electricity savings over the next 5 years. Right?

Wrong.

Sometimes electricity is included... so the landlord will see the extra $$$.

Oh and what if he has to move... is he gonna take those light bulbs with him?

[PLAYER57832]

No one is talking about renters... people who rent.

So people who rent are generally lower income than people who own, right?

So a renter is in a house... a light bulb blows. Now he has to buy an expensive bulb to replace the regular one that blew. That's cool though, cause he'll recoop the cost in electricity savings over the next 5 years. Right?

Wrong.

Sometimes electricity is included... so the landlord will see the extra $$$.

Oh and what if he has to move... is he gonna take those light bulbs with him?

Speaking as a former landlord (I have rented my own property out, but also managed my folks' property). You install CFL and they will take them out when they leave, and will only replace them with the cheapest bulb they can find, if that.. unless you specify the kind the must use in your rental agreement.

Many renters will take incandescent bulbs, switch plates... anything not nailed down and a few things that are. That's why so many landlords require pretty hefty security deposits.

[jimboston]

Speaking as a former landlord (I have rented my own property out, but also managed my folks' property). You install CFL and they will take them out when they leave, and will only replace them with the cheapest bulb they can find, if that.. unless you specify the kind the must use in your rental agreement.

Many renters will take incandescent bulbs, switch plates... anything not nailed down and a few things that are. That's why so many landlords require pretty hefty security deposits.

A Landlord? You must be part of the elite ultra rich we hear so much about!

Now... if you are responding, don't respond to a completely different point. Respond to the light bulb question. If the tenants suck the landlord loses because of the mandate. If the landlord and tenant are both normal... the tenant loses. Who wins? GE?

[PLAYER57832]

If the landlord and tenant are both normal... the tenant loses. Who wins? GE?

The next tenant. And.. its likely the old tenant will get the same benefit in his new apartment. Or.. well, them's the breaks in renting.

[jimboston]

If the landlord and tenant are both normal... the tenant loses. Who wins? GE?

The next tenant. And.. its likely the old tenant will get the same benefit in his new apartment. Or.. well, them's the breaks in renting.

The next tenant gets no benefit if the apartment includes electricity.

So your cool with GE getting rich at the expense of people who can only afford to rent???

[PLAYER57832]

If the landlord and tenant are both normal... the tenant loses. Who wins? GE?

The next tenant. And.. its likely the old tenant will get the same benefit in his new apartment. Or.. well, them's the breaks in renting.

The next tenant gets no benefit if the apartment includes electricity.

So your cool with GE getting rich at the expense of people who can only afford to rent???

If the apartment has electricity, its unlikely the tenant has to replace the bulb. If he/she does, it still costs less overall to replace one bulb than several incandescents.

But, per the "OK" bit.. not sure where I said I agreed with this rule anywhere. I have merely explained why it came about and various ramifications.

[jimboston]

If the apartment has electricity, its unlikely the tenant has to replace the bulb.

Not true... possibly, but not even 50%. Not all bulbs are in fixtures anyway. And if you do take bulbs with you they are more likely to break... they don't travel well.

If he/she does, it still costs less overall to replace one bulb than several incandescents.

Huh?

[Snorri1234]

This is the bestest thing ever. Good old Night Strike.

1. It's not the government's job to pick and choose which products get sold in a free market. They make those choices in a socialist market.

Aside from it obviously being the government's job to pick and choose what gets sold in their fucking country (not that I'm not willing to sell you some asbestos), you really don't seem to know what socialist and capitalist mean. Socialism says that people (The People, the folks, the honest workers or whatever name you give them) control the means of production and therefore what gets made/sold. It is up to the people directly to decide what gets sold.

I think the word you're looking for it authoritarian. (I think, i do not know)

2. Since the ban was passed in 2007 (I think), the 2 major US plants that manufactured CFLs have closed and GE (Obama's good pals) have moved their plant to China. Incandescent bulbs are manufactured in the US.

Cool beans.

3. It's not that big of an improvement in the environment because whatever it cuts down in emissions, it provides in mercury to landfills (because you aren't going to have 100% of them taken to a hazardous waste plant).

People are lazy fucks so best not change anything?

Anyway, if you don't believe we can cause the environment any harm what do you care?

4. Speaking of mercury, have you read the EPA's guidelines for cleaning up one of these broken bulbs? It's a 2-column, page-long guide on doing things such as turning off central air, opening all the windows, not using the vacuum, wearing thick gloves, using tape to pick up the pieces. Not to mention the mercury and mercury vapors are highly toxic, especially to young children.

This is a point.

I can tell because it has a number and not because any part of it has even the slightest relevance to this thing.

5. Some families can't afford the up-front higher costs of paying for the CFLs. Plus some of the large dollar savings they taught are based on replacing all of your bulbs, which is an expensive endeavor.

If they can't afford it they need to consider eating just one rat at dinner and not two.
Point being: they can afford it because it is not that expensive.

6. Some people have complained about not being able to read as easily with the new bulbs because they have slightly different light intensities at different wavelengths.

OH THE POOR READERS!

Seriously, wtf? What is this nonsense? People have trouble reading because this is a different kind of VISIBLE LIGHT than the one they were used to? Well I guess we must not do this then because of all the poor people without human eyes.

7. There is at least one study linking the frequency used to light the bulb to increased rates of cancer for those that sit too near them

Yes. Full circle to getting right wing theocrats to adopt the arguments more commonly employed by left-wing environmentalists.

Aside from light obviously not causing cancer, (seriously, how would it?), the irony of using AT LEAST ONE STUDY to give your argument force is delicious. I could tell a doctor that I don't need any iron-supplements because the irony of this will last me a life time.

Remember, these operate on the same principle as tubed fluorescent lights that are in most companies, so they also have a "Hum" that is produced.

No they don't.

[Phatscotty]

they are putting mercury in the environment.

[Symmetry]

they are putting mercury in the environment.

Where was it before?

[patrickaa317]

Socialism says that people (The People, the folks, the honest workers or whatever name you give them) control the means of production and therefore what gets made/sold. It is up to the people directly to decide what gets sold.

Is this guy serious?

Maybe he can share with us what a free market economy is?

[john9blue]

There is something seriously fucking wrong with you people.

welcome to the forums!

speaking of which, is snorri here to stay?

[PLAYER57832]

7. There is at least one study linking the frequency used to light the bulb to increased rates of cancer for those that sit too near them

Yes. Full circle to getting right wing theocrats to adopt the arguments more commonly employed by left-wing environmentalists.

Aside from light obviously not causing cancer, (seriously, how would it?), the irony of using AT LEAST ONE STUDY to give your argument force is delicious. I could tell a doctor that I don't need any iron-supplements because the irony of this will last me a life time.

Good post, but for the sake of honesty, I have to step in here, even though I am partially playing "devil's advocate" (not arguing a point I truly believe).

There are suggestions that exposure to electric light at night, particularly while sleeping, can increase the chance of cancer. Its a tenuous link at best, but the basic idea is twofold. First, we are weakened by exposure to electricity. Second, light can interfere with deep sleep. There might be other reasons -- or brains are of course very complex. However, that much does actually make sense. Its not enough to prove a link.. but enough that we can't simply say light obviously doesn't cause cancer. (not to mention some possibiliites regarding certain parts of the visible light spectrum)

[thegreekdog]

Why not just tax incandescent bulbs until they cost almost the same as CFL ones? Taxes are a better way to exert government control over the markets than quotas are. At least then, the market decides the best way to deal with it, based on cost, rather than just having numbers mandated centrally.

Because then the government would have a vested interest in ensuring that incandescent light bulbs continue to be used (i.e. they get revenue from their taxation). Thus, they would not want to replace them with CFL bulbs.

Also... if someone would be kind enough to answer my perfectly reasonable questions regarding the costs associated with this regulation (and the necessity of such costs), that would be just peachy. Alternatively, you can call keep going round and round as to whether CFL bulbs save the environment or not, when we all know that CFL bulbs result in cheaper electric bills which is why they should be used in the first place.

In the interest of time, here is the correct answer:

(1) CFL bulbs result in energy cost savings for users as compared to incandescent bulbs.
(2) Mercury is not a big deal. No one gives a shit about this except for Republicans. Also, Democrats and Republicans are both being hypocrits. On the one side we have "Mercury is not a big deal for the environment" from the "OH NOES GLOBAL WARMING" folks and on the other side we have "MERCURY WILL KILL ALL" from the "global warming doesn't exist" crowd.
(3) The government is going to spend money for something that they shouldn't spend money on because people are going to do it anyway. It's a waste of money and yet another reason why the government sucks and people are morons.

[PLAYER57832]

(2) Mercury is not a big deal.

Had to stop you right there. Mercury is a VERY big deal for young children, even in small quantities. (Seriously!)

[Woodruff]

(2) Mercury is not a big deal.

Had to stop you right there. Mercury is a VERY big deal for young children, even in small quantities. (Seriously!)

If those children are eating much ocean fish at all (salmon, etc), then the mercury in CFL's is not a big deal, no.

[PLAYER57832]

Why not just tax incandescent bulbs until they cost almost the same as CFL ones? Taxes are a better way to exert government control over the markets than quotas are. At least then, the market decides the best way to deal with it, based on cost, rather than just having numbers mandated centrally.

Because then the government would have a vested interest in ensuring that incandescent light bulbs continue to be used (i.e. they get revenue from their taxation). Thus, they would not want to replace them with CFL bulbs.

Not if the taxes were even or skewed in favor of CFLs.

per the rest... I have never been convinced this was good legislation.

[PLAYER57832]

(2) Mercury is not a big deal.

Had to stop you right there. Mercury is a VERY big deal for young children, even in small quantities. (Seriously!)

If those children are eating much ocean fish at all (salmon, etc), then the mercury in CFL's is not a big deal, no.

Not true.. at least when it comes to Pacific Salmon, most Pacific Fish. Farm-raised salmon can be contaminated, though my reading says that other things are of more concern than mercury (however, that can change depending on the location).

Swordfish naturally has high mercury levels.


I won't get into the whole litteny here.

[Symmetry]

(2) Mercury is not a big deal.

Had to stop you right there. Mercury is a VERY big deal for young children, even in small quantities. (Seriously!)

As is bleach. Don't feed your kids broken lightbulbs or bleach. If you're doing so now, stop!

[Woodruff]

(2) Mercury is not a big deal.

Had to stop you right there. Mercury is a VERY big deal for young children, even in small quantities. (Seriously!)

If those children are eating much ocean fish at all (salmon, etc), then the mercury in CFL's is not a big deal, no.

Not true.. at least when it comes to Pacific Salmon, most Pacific Fish. Farm-raised salmon can be contaminated, though my reading says that other things are of more concern than mercury (however, that can change depending on the location).
Swordfish naturally has high mercury levels.
I won't get into the whole litteny here.

Perhaps you had difficulty with the phrase "ocean fish", and that caused your reaction of "not true" (which, by the way, absolutely IS NOT TRUE).

[PLAYER57832]

(2) Mercury is not a big deal.

Had to stop you right there. Mercury is a VERY big deal for young children, even in small quantities. (Seriously!)

If those children are eating much ocean fish at all (salmon, etc), then the mercury in CFL's is not a big deal, no.

Not true.. at least when it comes to Pacific Salmon, most Pacific Fish. Farm-raised salmon can be contaminated, though my reading says that other things are of more concern than mercury (however, that can change depending on the location).
Swordfish naturally has high mercury levels.
I won't get into the whole litteny here.

Perhaps you had difficulty with the phrase "ocean fish", and that caused your reaction of "not true" (which, by the way, absolutely IS NOT TRUE).

I would be happy to take this up with more specifics if you wish to begin a new thread on it.