god logical debate Dms thread #1

[PLAYER57832]

Does this thread have to degrade into a "let's post the most disgusting pictures I can find".

Come on. We know these things exist, but insisting that we have to look at those pictures because we wish to enter into a discussion of God is childish, insulting and extremely offensive.

I would like to look at a CC thread without risking losing my lunch. You made your point. Move on!

[SultanOfSurreal]

Does this thread have to degrade into a "let's post the most disgusting pictures I can find".

it does if the theists around here insist that the mountains outside their window prove a loving god exists, while ignoring the children who starve daily in countries they've never heard of and the people flayed alive by the same weather phenomena that make the undulating clouds they're so ga-ga over.

if fish prove god exists then harlequin ichthyosis surely proves he's a heartless bastard

[PLAYER57832]

Does this thread have to degrade into a "let's post the most disgusting pictures I can find".

it does if the theists around here insist that the mountains outside their window prove a loving god exists while children starve daily in countries they've never heard of. if fish prove god exists then harlequin ichthyosis surely proves he's a heartless bastard

You don't have to post pictures most of us would rather our kids not see to prove this point.

That aside, most of us have already answered this many times over. You don't agree. That's fine. The debate here is over whether belief in God is logical, probable, etc.

Just to reiterate, in case you truly don't recall the discussions, evil is the result of the fall of mankind. God created the universe and mankind knowing that evil would exist, but still created us for reasons we don't really understand. As a guess, I would say that how we are, even with evil, is better than what would be without it. Three analogies. One comes from the classic stories of the genie(monkey's claw, etc.) -- what we think we want often creates far worse tragedies than what we wish to avert. The other 2 come from raising children. If you knew, without a doubt that your child would die tommorrow, would you still go ahead and have that child? Most parents who have had a child die say "yes", they are glad they had their child, despite the immense pain. (yes, there is a line when the child does not ever have a real life... at some point most parents would also answer "no", but we are also human) The last analogy comes also from raising children. You know that every time you send your child off to school, to a friends house.. even just into the yard, something really, really bad could happen. Yet, you still send them out. Why? Even if you could keep them in a secure vault, where they would be absolutely perfectly safe, it would mean they would not truly have a life. Granted, God knew when he created us that Adam would eat the fruit. Yet, that explanation is as close as I can come in human terms. We don't see what God sees. Christians believe that what God gave us is ultimately good. It does seem trite to compare bombs hitting kids or severe birth defects to eating spinache or wearing a jacket, but with the vast knowledge and greatness of God, the comparison is real. Our knowledge of the entire universe is far more limited than a child's knowledge of the world and dietary needs.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Does this thread have to degrade into a "let's post the most disgusting pictures I can find".

it does if the theists around here insist that the mountains outside their window prove a loving god exists while children starve daily in countries they've never heard of. if fish prove god exists then harlequin ichthyosis surely proves he's a heartless bastard

You don't have to post pictures most of us would rather our kids not see to prove this point.

That aside, most of us have already answered this many times over. You don't agree. That's fine. The debate here is over whether belief in God is logical, probable, etc.

Just to reiterate, in case you truly don't recall the discussions, evil is the result of the fall of mankind. God created the universe and mankind knowing that evil would exist, but still created us for reasons we don't really understand. As a guess, I would say that how we are, even with evil, is better than what would be without it. Three analogies. One comes from the classic stories of the genie(monkey's claw, etc.) -- what we think we want often creates far worse tragedies than what we wish to avert. The other 2 come from raising children. If you knew, without a doubt that your child would die tommorrow, would you still go ahead and have that child? Most parents who have had a child die say "yes", they are glad they had their child, despite the immense pain. (yes, there is a line when the child does not ever have a real life... at some point most parents would also answer "no", but we are also human) The last analogy comes also from raising children. You know that every time you send your child off to school, to a friends house.. even just into the yard, something really, really bad could happen. Yet, you still send them out. Why? Even if you could keep them in a secure vault, where they would be absolutely perfectly safe, it would mean they would not truly have a life. Granted, God knew when he created us that Adam would eat the fruit. Yet, that explanation is as close as I can come in human terms. We don't see what God sees. Christians believe that what God gave us is ultimately good. It does seem trite to compare bombs hitting kids or severe birth defects to eating spinache or wearing a jacket, but with the vast knowledge and greatness of God, the comparison is real. Our knowledge of the entire universe is far more limited than a child's knowledge of the world and dietary needs.

this is great and all but somehow i doubt it's very comforting to the people in those pictures

i wonder how willing you'd be to accept these tragedies as a just and necessary consequence of breaking the magic sky man's apple eating policy if they were happening to you

[PLAYER57832]

this is great and all but somehow i doubt it's very comforting to the people in those pictures

i wonder how willing you'd be to accept these tragedies as a just and necessary consequence of breaking the magic sky man's apple eating policy if they were happening to you

I see, so now this is a game of who can disgust who?

I am not denying anything. But posting pictures like that means I have to look behind my shoulder before clicking on these threads. This is a casual gaming site.

I did forget one answer. It is given in the story of the "imperfect angel" and other variations. Only with tragedy, evil are human beings given the opportunity to act most valiently. You can say all you like "but I would rather have a peaceful, boring life". And certainly I, most people would agree. But that is not our world. Our world exists, with good and bad. I believe it is for a reason. You do not. Posting rude pictures that you know most people will just turn off is a childish tactic. It is not reasoned debate.


P.S. I hope I never have to learn those lessons first hand, but I can point you to many, many, many who have endured much and who did find great strength, courage and reason in their faith. When you trot out that stuff as a knee-jerk reaction, you diminish these tragedies, you don't honor them.

[Simon Viavant]

I can see where this is going, and it's going to turn into a circular argument, but I'll kick it off anyway. God was omniscient, so he knew when he created them that they'd eat the apple because of how he made them. Everything was part of his super plan, everything that happened he already knew about and meant for it to happen for reasons unknown to us. Plus, the apple gave them the knowledge of good and evil, so they wouldn't have known not to trust the serpent, and that disobeying God was evil, so you can't really blame them for eating the apple, it's hardly an excuse to damn them to thousands of years of misery.

[jesterhawk]

I can see where this is going, and it's going to turn into a circular argument, but I'll kick it off anyway. God was omniscient, so he knew when he created them that they'd eat the apple because of how he made them. Everything was part of his super plan, everything that happened he already knew about and meant for it to happen for reasons unknown to us. Plus, the apple gave them the knowledge of good and evil, so they wouldn't have known not to trust the serpent, and that disobeying God was evil, so you can't really blame them for eating the apple, it's hardly an excuse to damn them to thousands of years of misery.

Ok, I will jump in and give a bit of insight on this post.

Does God know all, see all and so forth - YOU BET.

That said, yes, he did know that when he created Adam and Eve they would fall to the lure of sin and disobedience by following the serpent and eating the apple. And that caused them to be expelled from the Garden. And if it stopped there, then you could make a whole lot of arguments about how mean God really is. However, that is the reason that Jesus came and went to the cross to pay the price of our disobedience as a race. The Bible says that for the joy set before him, Jesus endured the cross. What joy? Having great multitudes of people following him to God the father and paradise in heaven. This is one reason why God allowed it all to happen.

The second reason is that God gave us free will and with that He does not stomp on our ability to choose. The reason that God gave us this free will and the ability to make choices is that God wanted to fashion a people who would choose to love and be with him.

So, God created Adam and Eve with free will and set them in the Garden. He basically gave them the freedom to do whatever they wanted EXCEPT eat from this one tree. In other words, he gave them one simple boundary to follow. The devil, knowing all of this and what would happen if they ate from the tree, saw this as a great opportunity to get back at God by turning more of his creation against him. Therefore he came into the Garden and convinced Adam and Eve to eat of the tree, as he would probably be able to convince most of us if we were honest.

So, what happened and what is the deal with the knowledge of good and evil. Remember that humanity is created in the image and likeness of God and nothing special was bestowed upon them after creation. That means that all along Adam and Eve had the ability and freedom to disobey God but did not. When they finally did by eating of the tree, they suddenly crossed a line. It is the same line that gets crossed the first time your child attempts to do something and you say no and they give you that look and try it anyway. Adam and Eve crossed over to having entered into the knowledge of what it meant to sin and disobey God. They had not this knowledge previous because even though they could disobey God (having the free will potential) they had not acted upon that until that moment. Therefore, their eyes were opened and broadened to what it was like to be disobedient and in God's eyes disobeying him is sin and evil.

Now, since God is holy and can not abide or live in the presence of sin, they had to be expelled from the Garden. This is the same reason that the devil had be expelled from heaven. And God needed to have a plan to redeem humanity back to him. This is why Jesus came.

To say that it is God's fault that Adam and Eve sinned is not correct because God gave them everything and asked only one simple task of them. Imagine being given the whole world except Hawaii. Many of us because we were told not to go to Hawaii would want to go. Why? That is the sin nature pulling us towards sin. But even though we may want to go, desire to go, we still have to make the choice to go and therefore the responsibility of the consequences are on us for choosing to go. The same is with Adam and Eve. God gave them a tremendous gift in the ability to have freedom of choice and then left them to live with that ability. The fact that they choose to use the ability for sin and eat of the tree is not God's fault but the one who made the choice.

God gave humanity a wonderful gift that could be used for evil if we choose to do so. Is God at fault for giving us what he knew to be a great and wonderful gift because some, and a minority at that, would choose to evil with it? I don't think so. At best, He is at fault for equipping us with such a potentially dangerous gift. But then where would you be if God did not give us this gift and you were forced without any deviation to serve him. And even then, God did take some responsibility because he sent Jesus (besides tons of prophets) and created a way to be redeemed from using our gift in an evil fashion.

So in the end, humanity damned itself by making this choice. Then God sent Jesus to redeem us from the choice.

JH

[SultanOfSurreal]

Does God know all, see all and so forth - YOU BET.

this is where my eyes glazed over, so i skipped to the end

So in the end, humanity damned itself by making this choice. Then God sent Jesus to redeem us from the choice.

and whew i totally saved 10 minutes of my life

[john9blue]

and whew i totally saved 10 minutes of my life

Cash value: 1/100 of a cent.

[PLAYER57832]

I can see where this is going, and it's going to turn into a circular argument, but I'll kick it off anyway. God was omniscient, so he knew when he created them that they'd eat the apple because of how he made them. Everything was part of his super plan, everything that happened he already knew about and meant for it to happen for reasons unknown to us. Plus, the apple gave them the knowledge of good and evil, so they wouldn't have known not to trust the serpent, and that disobeying God was evil, so you can't really blame them for eating the apple, it's hardly an excuse to damn them to thousands of years of misery.

We were create with free will, which means we had the option to choose evil. Adam chose evil. God created us, with free will knowing this would happen because without free will we would simply not be human.

[Neoteny]

The point with the pictures is, though they were part of an argument of which you do not wish to partake, is that looking around us is not proof of a loving god. It's a simplistic rebuttal to a simplistic statement.

[Gregrios]

That is probably the best arguement a person can make. I refuse to believe all that beauty and perfection just popped out of nowhere. I've actually sat down numberous times and thought about this. I have a very hard time believing that the world came into existence without purpose or a creator. It really does amaze me how some people look at the possiblity of God's existence and still think that everything appearing out of thin air is the more logical answer. It's kinda funny actually

Key word, you refuse.
You don't say i find it logically more likely, you say you refuse to seriously consider any alternative, pretty much says it all.

I'm sure we've discussed many times how evolution works, even how the universe worked after the first seconds. So we don't know what happened in those first seconds yet, hardly a good reason to posit the existence of a undetectable, more complex than the universe being to explain the universe.
Before we knew about germs would it have been logically valid to assume that there's a god that strikes the people he doesn't like and makes them ill? No because it makes no sense to explain one thing by imagining that a unexplained, more complex thing is causing it.

But to resume, do you want me to start posting pictures of baby with birth defects? I've seen some lovely ones, and they're also part of this "perfect universe"

A baby or any human for that matter has nothing to do with the perfection of the universe or more specificly, planet earth.

So then what do you mean by perfect?

Perfect in what sense? Perfect for what purpose?

Perfect in the sense that the earth is self-sustaining. It does not need us and if the earth were without humans then it would stay perfect. We are the only imperfection on this planet but the planet itself is truly perfect.

[Strife]

I can see where this is going, and it's going to turn into a circular argument, but I'll kick it off anyway. God was omniscient, so he knew when he created them that they'd eat the apple because of how he made them. Everything was part of his super plan, everything that happened he already knew about and meant for it to happen for reasons unknown to us. Plus, the apple gave them the knowledge of good and evil, so they wouldn't have known not to trust the serpent, and that disobeying God was evil, so you can't really blame them for eating the apple, it's hardly an excuse to damn them to thousands of years of misery.

We were created with free will, which means we had the option to choose evil. Adam chose evil. God created us with free will knowing this would happen because without free will we would simply not be human.

[This is my opinion(and I took the liberty of correcting a few mistakes in your post PLAYER, I apologize if this offends you)]
As I recall(in the Old Testament), Adam ate the forbidden fruit, forbidden isn't exactly free will. And Humans don't choose evil. I believe when you are born, you're born in sin(correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert theologist). Therefor are you not persuaded in "evil" ways from the moment you are born. So really, I'd say you can choose to be yourself or you choose to "redeem" yourself. There is no evil but that which (wo)man creates for them self.

Keep in mind I'm not really a religious person per-se, just expressing my views on what has been said.

[FarangDemon]

Just to reiterate, in case you truly don't recall the discussions, evil is the result of the fall of mankind. God created the universe and mankind knowing that evil would exist, but still created us for reasons we don't really understand. As a guess, I would say that how we are, even with evil, is better than what would be without it. Three analogies. One comes from the classic stories of the genie(monkey's claw, etc.) -- what we think we want often creates far worse tragedies than what we wish to avert. The other 2 come from raising children. If you knew, without a doubt that your child would die tommorrow, would you still go ahead and have that child? Most parents who have had a child die say "yes", they are glad they had their child, despite the immense pain. (yes, there is a line when the child does not ever have a real life... at some point most parents would also answer "no", but we are also human) The last analogy comes also from raising children. You know that every time you send your child off to school, to a friends house.. even just into the yard, something really, really bad could happen. Yet, you still send them out. Why? Even if you could keep them in a secure vault, where they would be absolutely perfectly safe, it would mean they would not truly have a life. Granted, God knew when he created us that Adam would eat the fruit. Yet, that explanation is as close as I can come in human terms. We don't see what God sees. Christians believe that what God gave us is ultimately good. It does seem trite to compare bombs hitting kids or severe birth defects to eating spinache or wearing a jacket, but with the vast knowledge and greatness of God, the comparison is real. Our knowledge of the entire universe is far more limited than a child's knowledge of the world and dietary needs.

I HIGHLY recommend you to see the movie "Religulous" or "The Root of All Evil". You are obviously a thoughtful person. But when you talk about what god wants it sounds like this to me:

"There was a city called Shurrupak
On the bank of the Euphrates.
It was very old, and so many were the gods
Within it. They converged in their complex hearts
On the idea of creating a great flood.
There was Anu, their aging and weak-minded father,
The military Enlil, his adviser,
Ishtar, the sensation-craving one,
And all the rest. Ea, who was present
At their council, came to my house
And, frightened by the violent winds that filled the air,
Echoed all that they were planning and had said.
Man of Shurrupak, he said, tear down your house
And build a ship. Abandon your possessions
And the works that you find beautiful and crave,
And save your life instead. Into the ship
Bring the seed of all living creatures."

Since it is not my religion, I find it ridiculous to accept it is true simply because somebody else might believe it. Ask yourself, why do I think my version of god is correct and that these ancient Babylonian people were mistaken. Is there a good reason why the Christian concept of god/gods is probably more true than this one?

Is this proof that the flood story of the old testament is true? Or does it make more sense that cultures that experience floods generally attribute floods to gods because floods are one of nature's most tremendous phenomena? If you don't believe the veracity of the story a priori, it makes more sense to believe that the Isrealites incorporated this story because so many other well known religions had a similar story.

"I was overawed, perplexed,
And finally downcast. I agreed to do
As Ea said, but I protested: What shall I say
To the city, the people, the leaders?
Tell them, Ea said, you have learned that Enlil

The war god despises you and will not
Give you access to the city anymore.
Tell them for this Ea will bring the rains."

And this next part, to me, looks like a case being made for the importance of the priest class. Gods can do these terrible things whenever they want, so you better respect the priests because they are the only ones who can intercede on your behalf. I think that it pays to think critically about some of the motivations that ancient religious / secular leaders would have had. The other option is blind acceptance of the veracity of everything written in a book, which Christians value as a positive trait called "faith".

[Haggis_McMutton]

Perfect in the sense that the earth is self-sustaining. It does not need us and if the earth were without humans then it would stay perfect. We are the only imperfection on this planet but the planet itself is truly perfect.

So by us you also mean all animal life i suppose. Because those also have their fair share of birth defects and such.
If you take those out of the equation, what exactly is so special about earth? If it is not "perfect for life" but just "perfect at existing" then it's only as perfect as all the other billions of planets that exist.
You might as well say that a rock is perfect because it's self-sustaining and doesn't need us.

Additionally, about the self-sustaining part. It would be a pretty different earth if there was no sun.

About the universe's perfection, well not really, it's expanding at an accelerating rate, sooner or later it will be too rarefied to form any new stars and will be basically just "dust" spread over unimaginable distances.

[Gregrios]

Perfect in the sense that the earth is self-sustaining. It does not need us and if the earth were without humans then it would stay perfect. We are the only imperfection on this planet but the planet itself is truly perfect.

So by us you also mean all animal life i suppose. Because those also have their fair share of birth defects and such.
If you take those out of the equation, what exactly is so special about earth? If it is not "perfect for life" but just "perfect at existing" then it's only as perfect as all the other billions of planets that exist.
You might as well say that a rock is perfect because it's self-sustaining and doesn't need us.

Additionally, about the self-sustaining part. It would be a pretty different earth if there was no sun.

About the universe's perfection, well not really, it's expanding at an accelerating rate, sooner or later it will be too rarefied to form any new stars and will be basically just "dust" spread over unimaginable distances.

You say it is not perfect for life but I completely disagree. The earth is indeed perfect for habitation. Birth defects of animals or humans do not affect the perfection inwhich the earth provides. I'd also be willing to bet that all defections can be traced back to man's doing. The earth is truly perfect.

[PLAYER57832]

Perfect in the sense that the earth is self-sustaining. It does not need us and if the earth were without humans then it would stay perfect. We are the only imperfection on this planet but the planet itself is truly perfect.

So by us you also mean all animal life i suppose. Because those also have their fair share of birth defects and such.
If you take those out of the equation, what exactly is so special about earth? If it is not "perfect for life" but just "perfect at existing" then it's only as perfect as all the other billions of planets that exist.
You might as well say that a rock is perfect because it's self-sustaining and doesn't need us.

Additionally, about the self-sustaining part. It would be a pretty different earth if there was no sun.

About the universe's perfection, well not really, it's expanding at an accelerating rate, sooner or later it will be too rarefied to form any new stars and will be basically just "dust" spread over unimaginable distances.

You say it is not perfect for life but I completely disagree. The earth is indeed perfect for habitation. Birth defects of animals or humans do not affect the perfection inwhich the earth provides. I'd also be willing to bet that all defections can be traced back to man's doing. The earth is truly perfect.

I agree, but have a slightly different take. It is only throught overcoming imperfections that we are given the opportunities to truly excel.

Think of our greatest achievements, be it in art, science, technology, etc. and you find it spurred by a wish to overcome. That is a facet inherent to humanity.

It is the old paradox of the curse "may you have your every wish granted". People are not truly happy without sorrow.

As to whether the mix could be altered slightly or not, all I can say is that I am not God, but I trust that God really does know better than we human beings.