Coleman wrote:Well a noob should stay away from Moderate too...
You already won Bamboo Jack, it's in the updated list on the bottom of page 8.
I think we may need a general forum poll. Is King of the Mountains confusing? You want to draft one with me to help eliminate influencing them one way or the other?
I'm still going to fight for Moderate on Iwo Jima. It may be the upper half of that, but it's not that bad... If you're interested in horse trading consider my shutting up on my Bamboo Jack thoughts is a trade for you to let this be Moderate?
What's now back up is Europe and BeNeLux. I just don't see them as Moderate.
Draft One: Is The King of the Mountains Map Confusing? Nah, it's easy. Took me a bit... I'm not sure I completely get it. I have nightmares about it...
i'm leaving for work in 20 minutes so i won't be here for long.
basic idea is this:
benelux. 2v1 you need more opinions but i guess you could go with simple.
kotm clearly complex for reasons stated above.
bamboo i win (extreme)
iwo jima you win (moderate)
europe moderate for reasons above
btw i don't think polls in the GD are needed.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
benelux. simple
kotm complex
bamboo extreme
iwo jima moderate
europe moderate
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Classic Africa Ancient Greece Arctic Asia Australia Battle For Australia BeNeLux Brazil British Isles Cairns Coarl Coast Canada Caribbean Islands Doodle Earth France Germany Hong Kong Iberia Indochina Ireland Middle Earth Middle East Montreal North America Portugal Puget Sound Scotland South America USA U.S. Senate
2) Moderate
Alexander's Empire CCU Chinese Checkers Circus Maximus Discworld Europe Extreme Global Warming Feudal Wars Great Lakes Italy Madness Malta Midkemdil Mongol Empire Philippines San Francisco Space Tamriel World 2.1 WWII Eastern Front WWII Iwo Jima
3) Complex
American Civil War Berlin 1961 Crossword Duck and Cover D-Day: Omaha Beach! Siege! Solar System USApocalypse WWII Western Front 8 Thoughts
4) Extreme
Age of Merchants Age of Realms: Magic Age of Realms: Might Bamboo Jack Battle of Actium Conquer Man Pearl Harbor Rail USA Valley of the Kings
Too Close King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex)
On iowa jima the only game i played on it was nooffence on the map maker one of the most boring games i ever played based on the game below which im refering to it really lends itself to grab a continent and sit back and watch the world go by. I don't think thats reason enough to make it complex.
europe and benelux are both simple to call them moderate will draw public ridicule i suspect
king of the mountains has to be complex seriously calling that moderate makes no sense *heads off to get evidence to back up this claim*
Last edited by rebelman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't now why people on here don't like being cooks, remember under siege: A former SEAL, now cook, is the only person who can stop a gang of terrorists when they sieze control of a US Navy battleship.
Coleman wrote:If it's just cities for BeNeLux I don't see it as Moderate. The only reason I agree with your Italy assessment is it has cities and is in Italian. (I take it we assume english users.)
Edit: Actually even if we don't the rest of the interface is in English...
Benelux should be moderate cos not all the borders are actually borders...
Coleman wrote:Too Close BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate) Europe (Simple or Moderate) King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex) WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex)
I'm going with BeNeLux as Simple because the capitals bonus is clearly labeled on the map. Plus the fact it's a very hard bonus to hold in any game that's more than 2 players (especially for only a +1)
Europe should also be Simple. Everything is self-explanatory to the point that just because someone overlooks the arrow and makes a mistake in one game doesn't mean it's confusing enough to be moderate. Besides, that one-way is better marked than the Alaska/Kamchatka border on Classic.
King of the Mountains should just be Moderate. The text is clearly stated and the territories are labeled clearly enough to tell which territories belong to which shape/color bonus.
I would go with Moderate for WWII Iwo Jima. The borders are marked pretty well, and the only confusing part is that fact that the one continent is split across the map via the middle territory.
I guess this comes down to King of the Mountains provided somebody doesn't reopen debate for one of these...
On the moderate side:
Player Behavior. If you look at the blatant purists they often play (or have played this map quite a few times anyway) in the past without much trouble.
The interface is really user friendly. Rules have nice pictures and the text is very easy to read. It looks kiddish and bright which encourages more positive thought which has scientifically proven to help facilitate learning and understanding.
On the complex side:
Compare it to the other maps in moderate. It has a lot more going on then them. A lot more.
Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.
For me
For me my counter to the complex side of player behavior is our moderate definition says you need to read a line or two... I agree it doesn't seem to fit in with the other maps for Moderate well. I can't come up with a good argument for that one except that I think my moderate ones overrule it.
Last edited by Coleman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The map really isnt that complicated, and the stuff is explained really well. not that confusing.
all the maps have clearly explained legends but that still doesn't stop people from complaining they are too complex. look at aom very clear legend. and yet it's in extreme category.
so no matter how well you make a legend people still won't bother reading and trying to understand, remember the list above is for people with little or no experience and bellow average iq.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Coleman wrote:If it's just cities for BeNeLux I don't see it as Moderate. The only reason I agree with your Italy assessment is it has cities and is in Italian. (I take it we assume english users.)
Edit: Actually even if we don't the rest of the interface is in English...
Benelux should be moderate cos not all the borders are actually borders...
C.
Explain?
A lot of people are saying Europe is simple DiM... I'm tempted to move it down.
Last edited by Coleman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I guess this comes down to King of the Mountains provided somebody doesn't reopen debate for one of these...
On the moderate side:
Player Behavior. If you look at the blatant purists they often play (or have played this map quite a few times anyway) in the past without much trouble.
The interface is really user friendly. Rules have nice pictures and the text is very easy to read. It looks kiddish and bright which encourages more positive thought which has scientifically proven to help facilitate learning and understanding.
On the complex side:
Compare it to the other maps in moderate. It has a lot more going on then them. A lot more.
Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.
For me
For me my counter to the complex side of player behavior is our moderate definition says you need to read a line or two... I agree it doesn't seem to fit in with the other maps for Moderate well. I can't come up with a good argument for that one except that I think my moderate ones overrule it.
play it safe and mark it complex. the people that understand it well will be glad to have mastered a complex map.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Coleman wrote:If it's just cities for BeNeLux I don't see it as Moderate. The only reason I agree with your Italy assessment is it has cities and is in Italian. (I take it we assume english users.)
Edit: Actually even if we don't the rest of the interface is in English...
Benelux should be moderate cos not all the borders are actually borders...
C.
Explain?
A lot of people are saying Europe is simple DiM... I'm tempted to move it down.
a lot of people aren't taking graphics into consideration.
hard to see army numbers and impassables that are hidden behing terit labels draw a lot of confusion.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
I'll throw my 2 cents in for the ones that are confusing as someone who is an intelligent person who hasn't played most of these maps, but have watched people play most of the maps and have read the rules for each of them. I also tend to not like the maps with a lot of different rules or situations (I like those types of games in live play but for some reason not online).
Alexander's Empire: Simple. The difference between this and CCU is that Alexander's Empire clearly states that the Seas are not worth anything. Really that isn't more confusing then the mountains and seas blocking territories from attacking each other on other boards (which does confuse some people) that have already been labeled simple.
American Civil War: Complex. It's on the lower end of complex, but it has a lot of different types of bonuses (for ships, generals, cities, full union bonus, and capitals). People are used to having different continent bonuses, but that's a lot of different types for them to get their head around on. You throw in the Maryland one way attack at the bottom, and it's definitely one that would have to be played once for many newcomers to get a true grasp of the rules and even very basic strategy.
Bamboo Jack: Extreme. It may not be as hard as it looks by the end of it, but it's a very intimidating looking map. A quick read through of the rules and a quick glance at the board will still leave you confused. This simply doesn't fit with the complex maps as far as somebody willing to try it for the first time.
Benelux: Simple. I don't see very many people not trying this map because of its rules (the cities combined with other strange rules would be a problem, but by itself it's an easy thing to add on). I also think any possible difficulties with what borders a person can cross will be easily resolved with a turn or two of play.
Duck and Cover: Moderate. Sure, newcomers will make mistakes with the bombardments. It's still not a very intimidating map to come in and try, and after a mistake or two on the bombardments I think most people would learn quickly. This map only stays somwhat complicated for a short time for each player, so I don't think it deserves a complex.
Europe: Simple. One of my favorite boards. The one way border would have to be explained once to less than half the people who play if for the first time. Everybody would get it after the very first time though, and it's perfectly normal otherwise. It's definitely a simple board.
Italy: Moderate. It's really a moderate for the same reason Great Lakes is a moderate. It has a legend that makes the board seem slightly intimidating, but in gameplay it is really easy. Should the legend be hard? No, if you really read it it's not hard at all. That doesn't mean that some people wouldn't reject it before even reading it, and that makes it a very low moderate.
King of the Mountains: Moderate. This is probably the hardest one to grade in the whole group. I'm going to put it as a high moderate. It may have a decent amount of rules, but it's so bright and so different that people are drawn to play it anyway. The one way attacks are made easier by the mountains themselves (it's easier for a newcomer to understand they can only attack down the mountain and not up, and also not attack other mountains. Plus attacking the top of the mountains from the helipads is very logical). I do think that some people will make a lot of mistakes on this map, and the variability on understanding is probably more than most maps. However, I think most people would give it a shot and would understand halfway through their first game what to do. I honestly think this could go in moderate or complex.
Mongol Empire: Simple. If they took the words trade route out it would be even easier, but really this isn't a hard map at all. Not very hard to join, and even if many people make one mistake not understanding the dotted line they would quickly learn. I think most people could jump in and play immediately.
Philippines: Moderate. I don't believe it belongs in simple because it looks very confusing to the eye with the colors and all the lines. Add to that the naval bases rule and people might be afraid to try it. Gameplay is very easy though. That makes it a low moderate.
Rail USA: Complex. This is one that a person will very likely not try for the first time, but will more likely try this than Bamboo Jack. It's one of those maps that if somebody gives you a 1 minute explanation of what to do most people would grasp pretty immediately. I don't think it fits in the extreme category.
Siege: Complex. The bonuses are hard to distinguish from each other for a person who has never played it before. Some arrows are very clear, and some are not so clear (especially by the tunnel). It's a map that I think a fair amount of people would try. They probably don't completely get the eccentricities until the 2nd time though, and that's what makes it complex.
USApocalypse: Complex. It's design makes it tricky. I don't think most players reading the rules would still have a clear idea what's going on when they start. It's on the low end of complex, but it's definitely complex.
WWII Iwo Jima: Moderate: It's just really cluttered. The only reason it's a moderate is that people who didn't read the writing on the map would think there's a lot of rules and wouldn't play. I don't see anything that could justify a complex rating.
WWII Western Front: Complex. Bombardments, and the colors of this particular one make it hard to concentrate for the newcomer, and if a newcomer can't concentrate on a map it seems more confusing then it really is. I think a decent amount of people would try it initially, but I see a lot of mistakes being made the first time around.
8 thoughts: Complex. A new player would have to be very brave to play this one for the first time. It's not as hard as it looks, but the rules and atmosphere of the map make it seem very, very intimidating.
CubColtPacer wrote:King of the Mountains: Moderate. This is probably the hardest one to grade in the whole group. I'm going to put it as a high moderate. It may have a decent amount of rules, but it's so bright and so different that people are drawn to play it anyway. The one way attacks are made easier by the mountains themselves (it's easier for a newcomer to understand they can only attack down the mountain and not up, and also not attack other mountains. Plus attacking the top of the mountains from the helipads is very logical). I do think that some people will make a lot of mistakes on this map, and the variability on understanding is probably more than most maps. However, I think most people would give it a shot and would understand halfway through their first game what to do. I honestly think this could go in moderate or complex.
This is some of the best logic I've seen regarding why KotM should be moderate. I second the opinion.
Coleman wrote: Too Close Alexander's Empire (Simple or Moderate) American Civil War (Moderate or Complex) Bamboo Jack (Complex or Extreme) BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate) Duck and Cover (Moderate or Complex) Europe (Simple or Moderate) Italy (Simple or Moderate) King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex) Mongol Empire (Simple or Moderate) Philippines (Simple or Moderate) Rail USA (Complex or Extreme) Siege! (Moderate or Complex) USApocalypse (Moderate or Complex) WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex) WWII Western Front (Moderate or Complex) 8 Thoughts (Moderate or Complex)
I would make:
A's empire - moderate
american civil war - complex (I'm still trying to get it down:-\)
Bamboo Jack - extreme
Benelux - Simple
Duck and Cover - Moderate
Europe - Simple
Italy - simple
KotM - moderate
Mongol Empire - simple
Philippines - simple
Rail USA - extreme
Siege! - complex
USApocalypse - moderate
WWII Iwo Jima - moderate
WWII Eastern Front - moderate
8 Thoughts - moderate
Last edited by ParadiceCity9 on Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CubColtPacer wrote:King of the Mountains: Moderate. This is probably the hardest one to grade in the whole group. I'm going to put it as a high moderate. It may have a decent amount of rules, but it's so bright and so different that people are drawn to play it anyway. The one way attacks are made easier by the mountains themselves (it's easier for a newcomer to understand they can only attack down the mountain and not up, and also not attack other mountains. Plus attacking the top of the mountains from the helipads is very logical). I do think that some people will make a lot of mistakes on this map, and the variability on understanding is probably more than most maps. However, I think most people would give it a shot and would understand halfway through their first game what to do. I honestly think this could go in moderate or complex.
This is some of the best logic I've seen regarding why KotM should be moderate. I second the opinion.
remember we're talking about people with little or no experience with risk that aren't too bright either
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
How do you feel about the King of the Mountains map?
It's pretty simple.
I wouldn't say it's simple, but it isn't complex either.
It's quite complex.
I don't get it at all.
I mean, I am going to have to post our final list in General anyway for public scrutiny, and I'll need to defend it with our collective arguments.
Coleman wrote:Are you sure we don't want a general poll?
How about this?
How do you feel about the King of the Mountains map? It's pretty simple. I wouldn't say it's simple, but it isn't complex either. It's quite complex. I don't get it at all.
I mean, I am going to have to post our final list in General anyway for public scrutiny, and I'll need to defend it with our collective arguments.
1) Simple Classic Africa Ancient Greece Arctic Asia Australia Brazil Cairns Coral Coast Canada Caribbean Islands Discworld Doodle Earth Europe France Germany Great Lakes Hong Kong Iberia Indochina Ireland Italy Malta Middle Earth Middle East Montreal Philippines Portugal Puget Sound San Francisco Scotland South America Tamriel USA U.S. Senate
2) Moderate Alexander's Empire American Civil War Battle For Australia BeNeLux British Isles CCU Chinese Checkers Circus Maximus Crossword Duck and Cover Extreme Global Warming King of the Mountains Madness Mongol Empire North America Space World 2.1 WWII Eastern Front
3) Complex Battle Of Actium Bamboo Jack Conquer Man D-Day: Omaha Beach! Midkemdil Rail USA Siege! Solar System USApocalypse Valley Of The Kings WWII Western Front 8 Thoughts
4) Hardcore/Extreme Age of Merchants Age of Realms: Magic Age of Realms: Might Berlin 1961 Feudal Wars Pearl Harbor WWII Iwo Jima
Coleman wrote:Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.
its not our fault if people dont read the rules. Unless the rules are complex to read for this map (which they arent) then the player is at fault. I dont know what to say about the categories though (leaning towards moderate)...when i first played it, i didnt realize that the tops of the mts. can attack eachother and that they had a bonus.
Coleman wrote:Are you sure we don't want a general poll?
How about this?
How do you feel about the King of the Mountains map? It's pretty simple. I wouldn't say it's simple, but it isn't complex either. It's quite complex. I don't get it at all.
I mean, I am going to have to post our final list in General anyway for public scrutiny, and I'll need to defend it with our collective arguments.
I think it is Moderate. By reading the definition below. KOTM is a moderate map. There are three lines of text and that is it.
2) Moderate - If you understand risk you can understand this, but you'll need to read a rule or two in the legend first to get it. You could probably still jump in and play and be alright though
Coleman wrote:Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.
its not our fault if people dont read the rules. Unless the rules are complex to read for this map (which they arent) then the player is at fault. I dont know what to say about the categories though (leaning towards moderate)...when i first played it, i didnt realize that the tops of the mts. can attack eachother and that they had a bonus.
Coleman wrote:Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.
its not our fault if people dont read the rules. Unless the rules are complex to read for this map (which they arent) then the player is at fault. I dont know what to say about the categories though (leaning towards moderate)...when i first played it, i didnt realize that the tops of the mts. can attack eachother and that they had a bonus.
this post proves its complex imho
Don't now why people on here don't like being cooks, remember under siege: A former SEAL, now cook, is the only person who can stop a gang of terrorists when they sieze control of a US Navy battleship.
