free will vs omniscience

[jonesthecurl]

If we are assuming "God" to be the Xian god, which most people on this thread seem to have done, then reading the bible will show that he did make mistakes soetimes, or at the very least not know the outcome of some stuff until it happened.

[kagetora]

Did anyone catch the irony of the above?

That is pretty funny What I meant is that I haven't read that particular book. I've read the Chronicles of Narnia, Screwtape Letters, and part of Out of the Silent Planet. I guarantee you it's not in those books. If I had to guess, I would say it was not in a book or in Mere Christianity...

But obviously he was a very charismatic and influential loony...there have been plenty of them in history.

I agree with the second part, but no one has ever been like Jesus. I don't know of anyone who called the status quo leader "broods of vipers", "sons of Satan" and "whitewashed tombs". Jesus wasn't a hybrid. He was both fully God and fully man. I'll just leave the goat part alone...

Correct math?

Christianity hinges on the New Testament
The bedrock of the New Testament is the 4 gospels
Yet you have no real knowledge of 75% of the gospels

Pathetic !

Now dont you think that something as important as Jesus saying he was God might merit a brief mention in the other 3 gospels, oh and incidently the quotes from John are open to question which might explain why half of Christians DONT believe he was God. Best you go away now and actually learn something about both your religion and science because your ignorance of both is shocking and frankly embarassing.

QFT

You may have missed my comment on this one when it came up in an earlier thread:
here's a better question:
If God is omnipotent, cna he create a universe that he cannot interfere with?

Question 2: did he?

Answer to Question 1: No. Being omnipotent, he could "undo" the "barrier" or whatever.
Answer to Question 2: Refer to answer to question 1.

[jonesthecurl]

So he there's somethign he couldn't do:
create a universe he can't affect.
So he's not omnipotent

[Neoteny]

So he there's somethign he couldn't do:
create a universe he can't affect.
So he's not omnipotent

Welcome back, by the way. Haven't seen you in a grip.

[jonesthecurl]

So he there's somethign he couldn't do:
create a universe he can't affect.
So he's not omnipotent

Welcome back, by the way. Haven't seen you in a grip.

Yeah, I was off in Toronto, then the UK - and when I got back I had no internet until Verizon got a new router to me.
Now I've just got to work out what's wrong with the main computer (working from a backup here) and everything's back to normal.

[Neoteny]

So he there's somethign he couldn't do:
create a universe he can't affect.
So he's not omnipotent

Welcome back, by the way. Haven't seen you in a grip.

Yeah, I was off in Toronto, then the UK - and when I got back I had no internet until Verizon got a new router to me.
Now I've just got to work out what's wrong with the main computer (working from a backup here) and everything's back to normal.

That sounds lovely... good luck with that.

[jonesthecurl]

When I get a minute, I'll be posting some stuff about my travels over on "longest thread".

[LocutusofBorg01]

Yet you have no real knowledge of 75% of the gospels

I never said that, I said I don't know as much about Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I didn't say I know nothing about them. When I get more time I'll respond to the rest.

One comment. If someone does not believe Jesus is God, they cannot be a Christian

[Juan_Bottom]

Hold on chief.....

What no one is commenting on is the recent revelation that Jesus may have never actually claimed to be the son of God.

I always bring this up, but no one ever touches it. Calling yourself "son(Daughter) of God" may have just been an expression of the time.

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9
"I and the Father are one" John 10:30
"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

I think you may have miss translated that last one too. From the statement "He who is, I am."

It is a law of science (undebatable) that something cannot come from nothing,

You just did..... Your definition is lacking. Look it up, fur realz. These are Einstein-Atheist your talking to in the Chatter-Box.

Of course...normal people will think this because man-gods are a fantasy.

For some reason, Jesus is the exception. Weird.

What's wrong with John?!?! I know all my examples are from John, but that's just because I know John the best out of the four (not three) Gospels. Also, there are more in John because each Gospel has it's own emphasis. John emphasizes Jesus as God.

Go and learn the others, friend. As a christian you have one job on this earth...

I agree with the second part, but no one has ever been like Jesus.

You're off your rocker. Many, MANY people have gone down in history as more myth than man. Especially in religion. The only thing Jesus has over their heads is you actually worship him, currently... Weirdo...

I don't know of anyone who called the status quo leader "broods of vipers", "sons of Satan" and "whitewashed tombs".

Lot's of people have stood up to leaders. And used all sorts of colorful language.

If we are assuming "God" to be the Xian god, which most people on this thread seem to have done, then reading the bible will show that he did make mistakes soetimes, or at the very least not know the outcome of some stuff until it happened.

I agree... He should have never had to flood the earth, he should have seen it coming before it ever got to that point. Also, he should have stopped satan from hiding all those dinosaur bones in the ground.

So he there's somethign he couldn't do:
create a universe he can't affect.
So he's not omnipotent

[Juan_Bottom]

Yet you have no real knowledge of 75% of the gospels

I never said that, I said I don't know as much about Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I didn't say I know nothing about them. When I get more time I'll respond to the rest.

One comment. If someone does not believe Jesus is God, they cannot be a Christian

THe Jews obviously dont. And they where actually there.

[LocutusofBorg01]

I always bring this up, but no one ever touches it. Calling yourself "son(Daughter) of God" may have just been an expression of the time.

1. It wasn't
2. He said He WAS God (and Son of God), very different things

I think you may have miss translated that last one too. From the statement "He who is, I am."

That's the actual translation. Look it up in any commentary

Your definition is lacking. Look it up, fur realz. These are Einstein-Atheist your talking to in the Chatter-Box.

It would take a lot to make me believe you are an Enstein. Also, I notice no one has actually countered any scientific law I brought up except saying it's not true. Either agree with me or bring up some sort of counter-argument. (In a debate tournament you would have been kicked out a loooooong time ago.)

Go and learn the others, friend. As a christian you have one job on this earth...

What?

Lot's of people have stood up to leaders. And used all sorts of colorful language.

True, but no leader in history has inspired the kind of following Jesus has.

THe Jews obviously dont. And they where actually there.

The Jews aren't Christians

If God is omnipotent, cna he create a universe that he cannot interfere with?

Question 2: did he?

Q1: Yes, he can

Q2: No, He did not.

If God were not actively involved in this universe, it would simply fall apart. To quote a Christian band, "Some things just can't be explained."

Here's a few:
How does an atom not fall apart? If positive charges repel each other, why does an atom not repel itself? Answer that in a scientific way and I'll be impressed.

What about Israel? Israel is the ONLY nation in history to be completely destroyed and become a nation again. Not only that, but Israel is one of the smallest nations in the world and is a major power in the Middle East. Strange, isn't it?

I mentioned this before, but I'll say it again:
Where did it all come from? If there is no God, and creation never happened, where did the original matter that makes up the universe come from? I couldn't have always existed, but it couldn't have appeared out of thin air either.

Closing thoughts:
There is a God, He is in control. The Bible is true, accurate, and authoratative in every area of life. If you are chosen of God, and He has given you the ability to believe in Him and give yourself to Him, you go to heaven. If not, you go to hell.

Cheerio

[Neoteny]

There is a God, He is in control. The Bible is true, accurate, and authoratative in every area of life. If you are chosen of God, and He has given you the ability to believe in Him and give yourself to Him, you go to heaven. If not, you go to hell.

Cheerio

He sounds very pleasant.

[Frigidus]

How does an atom not fall apart? If positive charges repel each other, why does an atom not repel itself? Answer that in a scientific way and I'll be impressed.

Note that until 1911 we didn't even know that the nucleus even existed, let alone was positively charged. We'll probably figure it out, we've come a long way since then already.

What about Israel? Israel is the ONLY nation in history to be completely destroyed and become a nation again. Not only that, but Israel is one of the smallest nations in the world and is a major power in the Middle East. Strange, isn't it?

This isn't the same Israel though, and it was basically given as a token gift by allied forces after WWII. Hardly a gift from God. Before the fall of Hitler the place was still just a legend, and 70 years is a rather short time when stacked up against the thousands that it was missing. Heck, the only reason they weren't quickly quashed is that the US has supplied them with top line weaponry for years.

I mentioned this before, but I'll say it again:
Where did it all come from? If there is no God, and creation never happened, where did the original matter that makes up the universe come from? I couldn't have always existed, but it couldn't have appeared out of thin air either.

But that hardly explains where God came from. If everything needs a creator then he does as well. And if he doesn't then why does the universe?

Closing thoughts:
There is a God, He is in control. The Bible is true, accurate, and authoratative in every area of life. If you are chosen of God, and He has given you the ability to believe in Him and give yourself to Him, you go to heaven. If not, you go to hell.

Cheerio

Hm...well let me make a statement with just as much backing as yours.

There is no God, we are alone. The Bible is a fabrication that has been used to control people for millenniums, and if it hadn't existed there would have been some other religion to take it's place. It doesn't matter who or what you are, when you die you are dead. Read that last bit again. Amazing some people disagree.

[Juan_Bottom]

2. He said He WAS God (and Son of God), very different things

It doesn't appear that way from what you provided me.

1. It wasn't

Yes it was, Christian! Dead Sea Scrolls 11021.

That's the actual translation. Look it up in any commentary

To me, it still appears as though he could have been using the expression "He who is, I am."

It is a law of science (undebatable) that something cannot come from nothing,
You just did..... Your definition is lacking. Look it up, fur realz. These are Einstein-Atheist your talking to in the Chatter-Box.

It would take a lot to make me believe you are an Enstein. Also, I notice no one has actually countered any scientific law I brought up except saying it's not true. Either agree with me or bring up some sort of counter-argument. (In a debate tournament you would have been kicked out a loooooong time ago.)

Your definition of nothing. Energy? Matter? You're hardly qouting scientific law. Look it up, you'll be shocked. And if something cannot come from nothing, then where did God come from? By your definition of "law," you yourself cannot believe in God.
Alls I'm saying is, that that isn't law, and you need to be more specific if you are going to say that it is.

Do they allow broad generalized statements in debate tournements? I've just been giving you an opportunity to correct yourself before someone Atheist-Einstien did. Check out the Evolution VS Creationism thread.... it spiraled into a debate about Black Holes or something.

What?

To be the best Christian that you can be. I'm sure that there is a special place in heaven for those that know their Bible.

The Jews aren't Christians

Yet again, they were the witnesses. But they are still Jewish. They were there, and they didn't buy into it either.

If God were not actively involved in this universe, it would simply fall apart. To quote a Christian band, "Some things just can't be explained."

"Some things cannot be explained...."

Like how you know all that about the universe????

What about Israel? Israel is the ONLY nation in history to be completely destroyed and become a nation again.

No it isn't. But it probably holds the record for being split up the longest.

I couldn't have always existed, but it couldn't have appeared out of thin air either.

How do you know that for surely? For all we know, time is a circle...

If you are chosen of God, and He has given you the ability to believe in Him and give yourself to Him, you go to heaven. If not, you go to hell.

Wow, you're not a very kind person. You were chosen by God to go to heaven, and I was chosen to go to hell? Is that what you are saying?
You sound like a loon. Everyone's own special brand of religion guarantees them entry into heavan, and denys anyone who doesn't agree. It's a retarded scare tactic. Hell is just a tool.

Note that until 1911 we didn't even know that the nucleus even existed, let alone was positively charged. We'll probably figure it out, we've come a long way since then already.

Agreed, that's what science is.

Heck, the only reason they weren't quickly quashed is that the US has supplied them with top line weaponry for years.

And, MONEY TOO!!!!

If God is omnipotent, cna he create a universe that he cannot interfere with?

Question 2: did he?

Q1: Yes, he can

Q2: No, He did not.

If he can create a universe that he cannot interfere in, then he isn't omnipotent. That was supposed to be a stumper for a Christian, I believe.

But at least we are getting the thread back on track.

[joecoolfrog]

Yet you have no real knowledge of 75% of the gospels

I never said that, I said I don't know as much about Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I didn't say I know nothing about them. When I get more time I'll respond to the rest.

One comment. If someone does not believe Jesus is God, they cannot be a Christian

Seriously you do need to educate yourself because its embarassing, im an atheist but seem to know more than you about Christianity. Do you realise that the Catholic church ( the original and by far largest christian group ) do not think Jesus is God, he is part of the trinity and is the son of God. Are you home schooled by any chance ?

[heavycola]

if pissing away time on this forum has taught me anything it is that there is no hope for these brainwashed cretins. As long as they keep their crazy little version of reality to themselves, they're harmless.

It also teaches that faith can be a scary thing. This dude, like jay, will never even try to understand what evolution actually is, no matter how much evidence is presented to them and no matter how much their 6,000 year old desert nomad creation myth is shown to be just that, because their faith - their big, mind-closing comfort blanket - can overcome any inconvenient facts of reality.
There is also fear that the stories taught to them by the pulpit-thumpers might be wrong - and if that's wrong, what else might be? Safer by far to believe unquestioningly. And it's the 'unquestioningly' that is the saddest part. It's the same with the troofers. Troofers and creationists. Welcome to the 21st century. Sheesh.

[joecoolfrog]

if pissing away time on this forum has taught me anything it is that there is no hope for these brainwashed cretins. As long as they keep their crazy little version of reality to themselves, they're harmless.

It also teaches that faith can be a scary thing. This dude, like jay, will never even try to understand what evolution actually is, no matter how much evidence is presented to them and no matter how much their 6,000 year old desert nomad creation myth is shown to be just that, because their faith - their big, mind-closing comfort blanket - can overcome any inconvenient facts of reality.
There is also fear that the stories taught to them by the pulpit-thumpers might be wrong - and if that's wrong, what else might be? Safer by far to believe unquestioningly. And it's the 'unquestioningly' that is the saddest part. It's the same with the troofers. Troofers and creationists. Welcome to the 21st century. Sheesh.

Pretty much my view cola, what is really depressing is the conveyor belt which will soon start churning out generations of homeschoolers...organised ignorance

[Neoteny]

if pissing away time on this forum has taught me anything it is that there is no hope for these brainwashed cretins. As long as they keep their crazy little version of reality to themselves, they're harmless.

True, but we can do things like this:

How does an atom not fall apart? If positive charges repel each other, why does an atom not repel itself? Answer that in a scientific way and I'll be impressed.

JEBONS!

[MeDeFe]

Science! YAY!

[InkL0sed]

You know, Neoteny, I never understood that either...

Your picture doesn't help

[Neoteny]

You know, Neoteny, I never understood that either...

Your picture doesn't help

What, how protons stay in the nucleus? I don't know either. Is current theory still gluons? To me that sounds almost as made up as Jebons, but I'm not the one to judge...

[Juan_Bottom]

Safer by far to believe unquestioningly. And it's the 'unquestioningly' that is the saddest part. It's the same with the troofers. Troofers and creationists. Welcome to the 21st century. Sheesh.

How the heck is being a "troofer" a comfort blanket???
Now if your someone who believes in every conspiracy, then I could see it. But what if you're not?

if pissing away time on this forum has taught me anything it is that there is no hope for these brainwashed cretins. As long as they keep their crazy little version of reality to themselves, they're harmless.

Until they get into groups.

[LocutusofBorg01]

He sounds very pleasant.

I could have made it a lot less pleasant.

But that hardly explains where God came from. If everything needs a creator then he does as well. And if he doesn't then why does the universe?

The definition of God denies that He needs a creator. If He is all powerful, He needs no creator. Therefore, He existed for all eternity. He has no beginning and no end (try to figure that out). The universe needs a creator because cannot eternally exist. The universe will eventually collapse, or at least become so disordered it will no longer function as we know it (Second Law of Thermodynamics).

It doesn't appear that way from what you provided me.

Son of God implies He wasn't God, saying He is God saying He is God

To me, it still appears as though he could have been using the expression "He who is, I am."

To the English, it could. But the next verse says the Pharisees tried to stone Him. They knew He was claiming to be God. Also, an understanding of the Greek/Hebrew text shows He was saying He was God

Yet again, they were the witnesses. But they are still Jewish. They were there, and they didn't buy into it either.

A lot of them did. When Peter spoke, 10,000 were converted at once. Many of the Pharisees became Christians.

No it isn't. But it probably holds the record for being split up the longest.

Name another

Wow, you're not a very kind person. You were chosen by God to go to heaven, and I was chosen to go to hell? Is that what you are saying?

I'm actually a rather kind person. You will notice I've never resorted to the Ad Hominem (to the man, i.e. insulting) argument. However, I say what the Bible says. The Bible says exactly what I wrote, so yes that is what I'm saying (unless you become a Christian, then you were predestined to believe in Christ)

"Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." Romans 9:13
"For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

Seriously you do need to educate yourself because its embarassing, im an atheist but seem to know more than you about Christianity. Do you realise that the Catholic church ( the original and by far largest christian group ) do not think Jesus is God, he is part of the trinity and is the son of God.

I've studied the Catholic church a fair amount, yes. They do believe Jesus is God, they affirm the Trinity. However, contrary to popular belief, Catholics, on the whole, ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is that salvation is both by grace and works. The Bible teaches salvation is only by grace. Thus, the Catholics don't believe the Bible. There are plenty of other contradictions, which I can bring up later.

Pretty much my view cola, what is really depressing is the conveyor belt which will soon start churning out generations of homeschoolers...organised ignorance

FYI, America was built on the foundation of homeschooling. Read a history book.

[Frigidus]

The definition of God denies that He needs a creator. If He is all powerful, He needs no creator. Therefore, He existed for all eternity. He has no beginning and no end (try to figure that out). The universe needs a creator because cannot eternally exist. The universe will eventually collapse, or at least become so disordered it will no longer function as we know it (Second Law of Thermodynamics).

So...you're using the old something absolutely perfect would exist rather than not exist so it exists argument? That was, like, the first attempted proof of God ever, and it's been debunked many times. Defining something into existence makes no sense. Also, if he needs no creator neither does the universe. After all, either everything was created or there is no rule that everything needs a creator.

Pretty much my view cola, what is really depressing is the conveyor belt which will soon start churning out generations of homeschoolers...organised ignorance

FYI, America was built on the foundation of homeschooling. Read a history book.

America was also built on the foundation of genocide and slavery. Doesn't mean we should be proud of it.

[Juan_Bottom]

He has no beginning and no end (try to figure that out). The universe needs a creator because cannot eternally exist. The universe will eventually collapse, or at least become so disordered it will no longer function as we know it (Second Law of Thermodynamics).

It's amazing to me that the Universe needs a creator, but God does not.

And again, you demonstrate your very limited understanding of real science. The Universe may eventually collapse.------

Ok, you acccept thet part, but you don't except the part that the collapse may spawn another cycle of the universe??? Your taking half sciences to support your claim. And it's annoying as hell.
And you never updated your first definition....

The definition of God denies that He needs a creator.

Because then logic may apply?

Name another

Vietnam, Britain--though by a different name... Do you count China??? Ireland??? Poland???

FYI, America was built on the foundation of homeschooling. Read a history book.

And upon the foundation of intolerance towards other faiths, and peoples... so?

A lot of them did. When Peter spoke, 10,000 were converted at once. Many of the Pharisees became Christians.

Seriously..... ....says who?? The Bible???

Catholics, on the whole, ARE NOT CHRISTIANS.

Didn't Catholics coin the term Christian? It's great that Christians have so much infighting. That way, salvation can only be acheived through their version of faith. Scare tactics again.