free will vs omniscience

[joecoolfrog]

Well like it or not the Holy Roman Church is the bedrock of Christianity,they put the New Testament together, without the Catholics the evangelical loonies would not exist. Secondly there is a difference between getting educated at home, because there were no available schools, and being deliberately isolated from modern scientific knowledge. One is a result of logistics the other an exercise in brain washing, they are not comparable and no history book will suggest they are. Incidently im still waiting for the quotes you promised from Luke, Mark or Mathew, if 3 gospels say it aint so then I reckon you will concede that the 75% wins the goldfish
I love debating with creationists because they are so one dimensional that they always end up flat on their faces, the more they bang on the bigger hole they dig for themselves, must be awful for proper Christians to be associated with them

[Jenos Ridan]

Well, we will probably always bicker over definitions, but it's valiant of you to try and avoid that. I'd give you a tentative green light to go ahead and make any point you're trying to make.

Ok, now that I have some time to get back to this........

It has been established already by HeavyCola and Frigidus that nothing is predestined; people have complete freedom of choice.

Therefore, I find it impossible to believe that Homosexuals can be born that way. What they do cannot be predetermined because it involves actions. Actions are preceded by thoughts, all conscious actions in fact. Since it begins in the mind, it cannon be predetermined because nothing with regard to the mind can be predetermined. Therefore, it is a lifestyle that is chosen. And why this lifestyle is said to be born out of predetermined factors is odd since it seems to be alone in the wide range of human behaviour. Is murder predetermined?

I rest my case.

[Juan_Bottom]

I rest my case.

Wow, are you a wingnut. At least I know that you won't return to this thread, so I need not reply.

[Frigidus]

Well, we will probably always bicker over definitions, but it's valiant of you to try and avoid that. I'd give you a tentative green light to go ahead and make any point you're trying to make.

Ok, now that I have some time to get back to this........

It has been established already by HeavyCola and Frigidus that nothing is predestined; people have complete freedom of choice.

Therefore, I find it impossible to believe that Homosexuals can be born that way. What they do cannot be predetermined because it involves actions. Actions are preceded by thoughts, all conscious actions in fact. Since it begins in the mind, it cannon be predetermined because nothing with regard to the mind can be predetermined. Therefore, it is a lifestyle that is chosen. And why this lifestyle is said to be born out of predetermined factors is odd since it seems to be alone in the wide range of human behaviour. Is murder predetermined?

I rest my case.

I won't pretend to know whether things are pre-destined assuming I'm right, I'm only asserting that things are destined assuming you are. Despite that, even assuming free will exists, that only means we are free to make choices, not that things are so radically free that our personalities are virtually chosen. We are free, for instance, to choose to kill someone. We are not free to choose to have schizophrenia, or taking it further if you want to go past just the mind, to be a teacup.

On a side note, whether being gay is determined or chosen, I still see nothing wrong with it. Creeps me out a bit, but hey, spiders creep me out and I don't condemn them.

[Neoteny]

Well, we will probably always bicker over definitions, but it's valiant of you to try and avoid that. I'd give you a tentative green light to go ahead and make any point you're trying to make.

Ok, now that I have some time to get back to this........

It has been established already by HeavyCola and Frigidus that nothing is predestined; people have complete freedom of choice.

Therefore, I find it impossible to believe that Homosexuals can be born that way. What they do cannot be predetermined because it involves actions. Actions are preceded by thoughts, all conscious actions in fact. Since it begins in the mind, it cannon be predetermined because nothing with regard to the mind can be predetermined. Therefore, it is a lifestyle that is chosen. And why this lifestyle is said to be born out of predetermined factors is odd since it seems to be alone in the wide range of human behaviour. Is murder predetermined?

I rest my case.

Ah. A fair enough conclusion, I suppose. I can't speak for Heavy and Frigid, but I can give you my opinion (as I do so often). The main issue is that predestination assumes not just a single path, but also a conscious driving force down that path. If we take that force out of the equation, it leaves us with the position that there is no driving factor. The issue we are left with is determinism, which is rather common as well. Determinism is a bit harder to argue against. The easiest way for me to visualize it is through genetics. Most of us have the urge to procreate with a member of the opposite sex. This is likely genetic, regardless of how the alternatives spring up. It is, after all, the "natural" way of doing things right? It could be said for most people nowadays that they are predetermined to have sex at some point in their life. It's what people do. However, some people do not. This is achieved in different ways, and it usually results from social constraints, not genetic, but each indicates that we have a say in the matter, rising above a deterministic viewpoint.

It's a terrible analogy, I think, but probably the best you'll get out of me at 3:30 in the morning. I might try again later if clarification is needed.

Fastposted by Frigid. Also, in defense of spiders, they are awesome. Leave them alone. Gays too, for that matter.

[Juan_Bottom]

Oh yeah, gays and spiders are both awesome. They can both shoot silk out of their butts, from what I gather...

Yup, gays and spiders....

[Frigidus]

Fastposted by Frigid. Also, in defense of spiders, they are awesome. Leave them alone. Gays too, for that matter.

Spiders are awesome assuming they're at least 20 feet away from me.

[Juan_Bottom]

Ok, that health bars thing was hilarious . R.E. in real life....

Gays have health bars too right?

[Frigidus]

Ok, that health bars thing was hilarious . R.E. in real life....

Gays have health bars too right?

Why do you think the Christians are going at them so hard?

[Neoteny]

Just think of them as happy animals and you'll be ok.

Ok, that health bars thing was hilarious . R.E. in real life....

Gays have health bars too right?

Gays have gay bars.

[Juan_Bottom]

His ass is happy to see you.

A gay's ass is happy to see you too, right?

[Frigidus]

His ass is happy to see you.

A gay's ass is happy to see you too, right?

Thread derailed. Fear the power of the non sequitur.

[Neoteny]

His ass is happy to see you.

A gay's ass is happy to see you too, right?

Thread derailed. Fear the power of the non sequitur.

All forums have ADD. It's true.

[MeDeFe]

non sequitur is win.

[jonesthecurl]

Only because it was preplanned from the instan of creation that all threas would be derailed.
Oops, I've put us back on track.

("Oops," says God, "I hadn't thought of that...")

[Neoteny]

Only because it was preplanned from the instan of creation that all threas would be derailed.
Oops, I've put us back on track.

("Oops," says God, "I hadn't thought of that...")

My head just asploded.

[HourofPower]

Assuming there is a god, there is NO way that he could think on a level entirely impossible for us.

I mean, if a being could create the universe, we'd probably be able to understand every aspect of it.

Like, we have some omnipotent people around right, so we know exactly what omniscience is in the flesh.

I'm glad that we have the intuition and mental capacity to firmly define the state of God, The Universe, The Meaning of Life, and all the other great questions.

Secondly,

Since I choose to drink Crush Soda, I must have chosen to like that beverage. Everything is choice right? But do you really choose to enjoy a certain soft drink? Like a gay person chooses to like other men/women. Couldn't it be argued that you were born with an inherent enjoyment for that beverage, scientifically? yes.

However, homosexuality is an oxymoron. Sexual reproduction is designed to facilitate reproduction. Homosex does not facilitate reproduction. Therefore homosex is meaningless and asinine, scientifically.

If the human race was gay from the start we wouldnt of got past the first humans.

Thirdly,

Just because I read a history book, and know what happened at a certain time, doesn't mean that the people of that time didn't choose their own actions.

Sure, there is only ONE outcome, but they chose it.

Think of god as having a giant book, the Entire History of the Universe. (making it simple for you guys) In it is every event ever. So why couldnt of those events have been decided by human choice, then recorded after and viewed by the omnipotent (everywhere/when at once) God.

What makes you think you can outline and define something that no human will ever understand.

[jonesthecurl]

Please only ride your hobby horse in one direction at a time - I'm getting dizzy.

[PLAYER57832]

Invisible mystery gods aren't real and Men are men...even ancient ones.

Jesus was a man...just like you and me. No magical powers...other than the powers of persuasion. Did he believe his own rhetoric? Who knows.

Can you prove this? No, you cannot... not really, not imperically and unequivocably.

So, you are welcome to not believe in God, but not to claim that anyone who does is an idiot.

(of course, some individuals on BOTH sides are truly idiots ... but that's another story )

(and, interestingly, some of those who have lower IQ's are most definitely not "idiots" in any meaningful sense of the word. ... along the lines of "out of the mouths of babes" )

[Backglass]

Can you prove this? No, you cannot... not really, not imperically and unequivocably.

Can you prove that Fire Breathing Dragons aren't real?

Can you prove that Zues is not the one true God?

<wait for it>
.
.
.
.

Can you prove that LEPRECHAUNS DO NOT EXIST? YOU CANNOT! HALLELUJAH!

[Snorri1234]

I know enough about evolution and genetics to know they don't go together

[MeDeFe]

Please only ride your hobby horse in one direction at a time - I'm getting dizzy.

Thanks jones, I thought it was just me because I'd been drinking.

Try this: peel a Kiwi fruit and cut it into pieces, put the pieces into a glass, pour on vodka, stir vigorously for a minute or a half to bring out the Kiwi aroma, fill up with orange juice. Watermelon works well too, bananas not so well, you need some fruit that contains a lot of juice.

[Frigidus]

However, homosexuality is an oxymoron. Sexual reproduction is designed to facilitate reproduction. Homosex does not facilitate reproduction. Therefore homosex is meaningless and asinine, scientifically.

If the human race was gay from the start we wouldnt of got past the first humans.

There are lots of things we humans do that don't make sense scientifically. Why are we on this forum for example? Seems like a waste of time from a strict scientific perspective.

Thirdly,

Just because I read a history book, and know what happened at a certain time, doesn't mean that the people of that time didn't choose their own actions.

Sure, there is only ONE outcome, but they chose it.

Think of god as having a giant book, the Entire History of the Universe. (making it simple for you guys) In it is every event ever. So why couldnt of those events have been decided by human choice, then recorded after and viewed by the omnipotent (everywhere/when at once) God.

What makes you think you can outline and define something that no human will ever understand.

But the thing is, God doesn't just know what's happening, he made it that way. It would be like me writing the history book and then reading it. Sure, I'm looking at it from an outside standpoint but I still created it. It couldn't have been any different from what I wrote.

[LocutusofBorg01]

That's a lot of ground to cover...here we go...

So...you're using the old something absolutely perfect would exist rather than not exist so it exists argument? That was, like, the first attempted proof of God ever, and it's been debunked many times. Defining something into existence makes no sense.

I'm not using that argument as a proof of God, only that He needs no creator. That's assuming God exists.

It's amazing to me that the Universe needs a creator, but God does not.

It's amazing you seem to not grasp the concept of definitions. Evolution denies God, so we must be able to understand everything using natural processes. The First Law of Thermodynamics states "Matter cannot be created or destroyed" (speaking in terms of natural processes). Therefore, the universe has the same amount of matter as it did when it began. Matter cannot come from energy or anything else. Matter cannot be created naturally. Therefore, without a Creator, the universe could not exist.

Ok, you acccept thet part, but you don't except the part that the collapse may spawn another cycle of the universe??? Your taking half sciences to support your claim. And it's annoying as hell.

Yeah, I thought of that later. My bad...

Vietnam, Britain--though by a different name... Do you count China??? Ireland??? Poland???

China never fell, Ireland retained it's culture (unlike Israel), we aren't counting Eastern Europe through WWII. Britain and Saxony are not the same.

Didn't Catholics coin the term Christian?

No. The term Christian was coined in the 1st century AD in Syria Antioch. The Greek translation is "Little Christ". It was meant as an insult, kind of like Yankee Doodle.

That way, salvation can only be acheived through their version of faith. Scare tactics again.

Not exactly. There are Christians who I seriously disagree with in terms of certain doctrines of Christianity, but I don't say they are not Christians, because they believe the core of the Bible.

they put the New Testament together

Wrong again. There was actually a split when the Bible was put together. The Catholics (which at that point were still right in their beliefs) and the non-Catholics disagreed on six books (I think it is) called the Apocrapha. The non-Catholics kept them out of the Bible, while the Catholics put them in.

Secondly there is a difference between getting educated at home, because there were no available schools, and being deliberately isolated from modern scientific knowledge. One is a result of logistics the other an exercise in brain washing, they are not comparable and no history book will suggest they are.

Really? I agree there are some amazingly isolated homeschoolers, but that's not the whole (by the way, yes I'm homeschooled, though I haven't always been). I consider science to be one of the most important things man could pursue. Science is great, as long as it isn't mis-applied (which it often is). Believe me, if science ever finds ET, I'll be the first in line to meet him.

I mean, if a being could create the universe, we'd probably be able to understand every aspect of it.

That's like us building an aquarium for a guppy and saying the guppy would be able to understand the workings of the water filter.

On the whole God-controlling thing-

Let's just drop it for now. I believe He dictates everything (but man is still responsible), you believe man is in control. Let's leave it at that for now.

[MeDeFe]

So you believe in an oxymoron, ok.

And I don't think we created an entire "kind" of guppies in our image, did we?