[Abandoned] - Trench Warfare!

[yeti_c]

Yeah - which is why we're in this weird kinda limbo - like Maze Craze!!

C.

[Meditron]

Alright first off I want to say I love the idea of a World War 1 style trench war map, as a history major the world wars are are probably my favorite parts of history to study, though there are others up there but that's really irrelevant at present.

I don't know if this has been said yet or not (I really didn't want to read all 12 pages in full) but I feel you could expand this map more and allow the German side the addition of the in-depth elastic defenses, create more of a system of trenches to work with. I don't really have any XML experience or programming knowledge to draw anything at all, but I the majority of machine guns on the German side especially were usually layered in the rear in front of the artillery so that the front trenches could be abandoned quickly to lure the enemy into heavy machine gun fire.

Additionally you could potentially have your machine guns with a certain bombard range, and then add artillery in with a longer one, since artillery played a huge roll in trench offenses up until the Germans developed new tactics (based on Russian design) at wars end.

I mean of course this is all just suggestion and feel free to ignore it, or maybe sometime someone could make a larger World War 1 trench war style map based on this that could include more aspects of the trench system but anyway that's my suggestion for the map.

[Incandenza]

I don't know if this has been said yet or not (I really didn't want to read all 12 pages in full) but I feel you could expand this map more and allow the German side the addition of the in-depth elastic defenses, create more of a system of trenches to work with. I don't really have any XML experience or programming knowledge to draw anything at all, but I the majority of machine guns on the German side especially were usually layered in the rear in front of the artillery so that the front trenches could be abandoned quickly to lure the enemy into heavy machine gun fire.

We've kept the trench system pretty clean and simple, especially since this is supposed to be somewhat of an abstraction of WWI trench warfare, and not a specific scenario like Verdun or the Somme. Plus the way it is now keeps the gameplay balanced, we wouldn't want a situation where the player that drops in strength on, say, the German side has a distinct advantage. Besides, there's not a lot more room to fit additional gameplay elements.

Additionally you could potentially have your machine guns with a certain bombard range, and then add artillery in with a longer one, since artillery played a huge roll in trench offenses up until the Germans developed new tactics (based on Russian design) at wars end.

Actually, that's the way it works now. Machine guns reach to the end of No Man's Land, then the mortars bombard the opposing front, so combined operations will be key to victory on this map.

Much obliged for the comments!

[Meditron]

Awesome, I'm not horribly familiar with the bombard feature as I typically don't play maps that feature it, but that's great that it works that way.

I wasn't trying to imply that the German side should be substantially stronger by any means, just the differences between the two sides style of trenches and tactics would be more accurately expressed in combat. I totally respect the concept of making it an abstraction though, hopefully someone can make a Somme, Ypres, or Verdun style map in the future to satisfy my insatiable history nerd hunger lol.

I'm pretty excited for this map though, so keep up the good work.

[oaktown]

Here's a thought that might improve legend/play clarity... what if the legend info about the "orders" (mortars and the like) were moved up to the top of the column, directly under the territories? It seems like that would just make more sense, and perhaps draw needed attention to them as territories.

[mibi]

Here's a thought that might improve legend/play clarity... what if the legend info about the "orders" (mortars and the like) were moved up to the top of the column, directly under the territories? It seems like that would just make more sense, and perhaps draw needed attention to them as territories.

This could work.... the legend is currently in a loose order of importance or "what will likely be used in the game" trenchs, machine guns, etc... all the way down to artillery which is the least likely scenario.

The thing about the orders is that they will definetly look like territories when they have actual army numbers on them.

[Incandenza]

And just to augment mibi's point: the legend as it stands basically aligns with how a game will go: in the early going you secure trenches, then move forward and take a machine gun, then hit the bunker and start chipping away at the orders... plus none of the orders are likely to come into play in the first couple of turns, giving people time to become acclimated on the map.

No matter what, people are going to make mistakes. People will misread the legend, they won't understand a certain instruction, whatever. But like I said before, the most comprehensive legend in the world won't entirely eradicate user error.... and experience is always the best teacher. Ask anyone that's marooned a huge army on an artillery in waterloo, I guarantee they'll never make the same mistake.

[blue sam3]

Ask anyone that's marooned a huge army on an artillery in waterloo, I guarantee they'll never make the same mistake.

providing they aren't me anyway

[mibi]

I wonder if there is a timeline on any xml update...it's been a while since we have had one.

[Incandenza]

Well, I'm not exactly holding my breath, but who knows?

Meanwhile, here's Version 5 again:

[bigimg]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9868/trenchdraft8eh6.jpg[/bigimg]

[TaCktiX]

This is a nitpick in the purest sense, but the G on the grid is a little too destroyed, and a quick glanceover could mistake it for a C (even though there's a C column higher up) Perhaps a little less grime on that section?

[Androidz]

Another nittypick the corner in 1 and A is a bit destroyed. unfilled with colours (black line. in the other area...

[Hopscotcher]

I have to admit I haven't read the entire log, but have you considered adding landmines somewhow? Perhaps if you take a space adjacent to a machine gun, you lose one extra troop or somesuch? just an idea.

[Incandenza]

I have to admit I haven't read the entire log, but have you considered adding landmines somewhow? Perhaps if you take a space adjacent to a machine gun, you lose one extra troop or somesuch? just an idea.

Thanks for your interest. Landmines were discussed and ultimately rejected. It's hard enough getting across No Man's Land as it stands.

Tac and Androidz, I think we're at a point where further graphic touch-ups will be waiting on the needed xml update. But we'll definitely keep your comments in mind.

[Blitzaholic]

whoa Incandenza with a map, awesome

does it seem a little dark or hard to see?

[Incandenza]

whoa Incandenza with a map, awesome

does it seem a little dark or hard to see?

Thanks, blitz, but all credit should go to mibi. His concept, his graphics, his baby... I'm just the adviser and logistical technician.

And it's dark, but intentionally so, and everything will be quite clear once all the army numbers are laid down.

[LED ZEPPELINER]

maybe try putting the numbers on the bottom too, that way people can see them easier when they are reinforcing/attacking

[saaimen]

maybe try putting the numbers on the bottom too, that way people can see them easier when they are reinforcing/attacking

I completely second that.

BUT... No size limitation issues then?
Maybe just move the whole grid up a bit. Then you could have the numbers be partially inside the squares, like the letters. Cause now, the numbers on top do take quite some space...

[mibi]

maybe try putting the numbers on the bottom too, that way people can see them easier when they are reinforcing/attacking

I completely second that.

BUT... No size limitation issues then?
Maybe just move the whole grid up a bit. Then you could have the numbers be partially inside the squares, like the letters. Cause now, the numbers on top do take quite some space...

Yeah the whole grid could get moved up. And the numbers can come down in size too.

Great map! Can't wait to play!

[Incandenza]

Great map! Can't wait to play!

Yeah, you and me both.

[cairnswk]

I had licked this map for graphics, but i had better check first otherwise i will get in trouble from up top.

[wcaclimbing]

The terrain texture is broken up at the top of the map. Directly under where the territory letters are.
It just breaks from one texture to another and doesn't look very good. A straight line all the way across the map, directly under the territory numbers.
Could you smooth that out a bit so it looks like one whole texture, not two different parts copy-pasted on top of eachother?

EDIT: I'm not completely sure how to explain what I'm seeing. If you don't get what I'm saying, I could try to explain it differently.

[Incandenza]

The terrain texture is broken up at the top of the map. Directly under where the territory letters are.
It just breaks from one texture to another and doesn't look very good. A straight line all the way across the map, directly under the territory numbers.
Could you smooth that out a bit so it looks like one whole texture, not two different parts copy-pasted on top of eachother?

EDIT: I'm not completely sure how to explain what I'm seeing. If you don't get what I'm saying, I could try to explain it differently.

Oh, yeah, I see it too. It'll go on the to-do list, which brings me to my next point:

Let's not get carried away with graphics stamps. There's a small graphics to-do list, and we're still waiting on the xml update that would make this map possible. Certainly, and I hope I speak for mibi, we'd be obliged to get a graphics stamp as part of a reasonably swift induction into the forge when the aforementioned xml update occurs, but again, let's not get carried away.

[wcaclimbing]

Awesome.

The same thing is visible (but not nearly as much) along the right side of the map. Just in a few places. Not very noticable. But that could be fixed also.

For the boundary between the Map Legend and the Terrain texture, right now it just switches from one brown texture to another. Could you do either:
A. add a border or shadow or something to separate the two.
B. gradually blend the two together along that edge so there isn't much of a noticeable change between the two sides.

My vote would be for A, but either would work, I think.
If you need an idea for the border/shadow, I think what I did on Oasis would work well here. click here if you want to see the map.
I just did a one pixel black border along the entire thing. And a small shadow behind it to make the legend stand in front of the map.
I think that'd work for this map.

[mibi]

Awesome.

The same thing is visible (but not nearly as much) along the right side of the map. Just in a few places. Not very noticable. But that could be fixed also.

For the boundary between the Map Legend and the Terrain texture, right now it just switches from one brown texture to another. Could you do either:
A. add a border or shadow or something to separate the two.
B. gradually blend the two together along that edge so there isn't much of a noticeable change between the two sides.

My vote would be for A, but either would work, I think.
If you need an idea for the border/shadow, I think what I did on Oasis would work well here. click here if you want to see the map.
I just did a one pixel black border along the entire thing. And a small shadow behind it to make the legend stand in front of the map.
I think that'd work for this map.

the texture behind the legend is actually a photo of some WW1'ers jumping out of a trench. Obviously it's very obscured.