Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

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Neoteny
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Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by Neoteny »

Parents' rights vs childrens' rights: where do we draw the line, and why?

It is generally accepted that we want to raise our children to be moral, well-adjusted, contributing members of society. It is not difficult to fathom why this is. However, the processes that different parents use to achieve this goal vary widely across the world, and even within particular societies. All of these different processes, of course, provide different results. Many modern societies have come to a general consensus on the different factors that contribute to the proper upbringing of a child: basic shelter and food, a secular education (math, science, history, literature, and other subjects that do not deal directly with any particular worldview), nutrition and physical health, ethical guidance, and religious instruction, to name a few. I would like to examine this last factor and open up for discussion the appropriateness of childhood indoctrination.

Blood tends to boil when such topics are discussed, and for good reason. For many of us, our children are the world, if not more. To challenge one's judgment on the proper way to raise her child is to challenge her reason, her integrity, and her capability (why is this the case? I can think of a reason or two). I do not take such feelings lightly, but I do not believe that these emotions should limit our unbiased inquiry into the subject, for it is in defense of the health of these children that I wish to discuss this topic, and any argument with such intentions I see as no less than noble, and I am certain that both sides of such a discussion will have the same intentions. I shall try my best to avoid offending, and I ask that you try your best to not be offended.

Young children are extremely impressionable. They are programmed, for good reason, to accept anything and everything that is expressed to them by their parents. This allows for easy inculcation of concepts essential for life (you have to eat your vegetables, don't jump off the house, etc). It also allows for the introduction of supernatural beliefs.

The problem that I see with the latter concepts, but not for the former, is that most of these beliefs are not obviously beneficial, and many are quite harmful to some children. Take as an example teenage suicide bombers, female circumcision, etc. Perhaps your religious beliefs are not as harmful, but how can you, as a practicing member of that religion, look at such things objectively? Are you sure that all the doctrines you are introducing to your children are harmless? I bet there are people of other faiths (or of no faith) who will disagree with you, and can provide evidence to support that opinion.

Do we not have the right to raise our children the way we want to? The answer to this question should be obvious: a resounding "NO!" To give in to such a thought process is what allows people to train their children to be walking bombs, to sabotage their secular education, to destroy their objective faculties, and to cripple their sense of right and wrong. Put simply, if it comes down to a conflict between the rights of our children to avoid damaging religious doctrines, and the right of parents to expound their religion, then we should err on the side of the safety of our children. This may be difficult to hear, as we all hold dear the founding principles of modern democracy, but we need a standardized process that eliminates the destructive habits of all religions, and this is to protect the rights of children, perhaps at the expense of yours. Does this not interfere with our concept of the freedom of religion? I would answer that it does not, as you, as an adult, are free to practice whatever religion you choose, and that your children are, for the first time, able to reap the fruits of that modern concept, without fear of ostracization from the family and the effects of societal punishments. Indeed, they may be the first generation to realize those benefits.

So, how do we decide what to do? Do we just carry on the way we have, self-assured that we are teaching our children the right things? That is a dangerous path, and it should be apparent that such a thing would require investigation. I propose that we cut religion out of our children's lives entirely, at least until it is determined that all of the effects of each religion are harmless. Let them make up their own minds, when they are capable of doing so. I don't think this will have a negative effect on religion either. Those who accept the religion will do so under the full power of their reason, who can defend their faith with reason and poise, and cannot be accused of being puppets of the worldview of their parents. What stronger adherents could a god want? We have seen the beginnings of this transition in the ethical progress our societies have made since the overwhelming prevalence of theocracies in the Middle Ages. I feel this will lead to the most rational possible majority of those who are religious, and will reduce the atrocities committed in the name of god, or other supernatural agents.
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Lev306
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by Lev306 »

Neoteny wrote:Do we not have the right to raise our children the way we want to? The answer to this question should be obvious: a resounding "NO!" To give in to such a thought process is what allows people to train their children to be walking bombs, to sabotage their secular education, to destroy their objective faculties, and to cripple their sense of right and wrong. Put simply, if it comes down to a conflict between the rights of our children to avoid damaging religious doctrines, and the right of parents to expound their religion, then we should err on the side of the safety of our children. This may be difficult to hear, as we all hold dear the founding principles of modern democracy, but we need a standardized process that eliminates the destructive habits of all religions, and this is to protect the rights of children, perhaps at the expense of yours. Does this not interfere with our concept of the freedom of religion? I would answer that it does not, as you, as an adult, are free to practice whatever religion you choose, and that your children are, for the first time, able to reap the fruits of that modern concept, without fear of ostracization from the family and the effects of societal punishments. Indeed, they may be the first generation to realize those benefits.


Then what is proper to teach children? Some may argue that systems of government and economics may not be proper to teach children and that they should let themselves decide what they want. Eg. Americans may not want their children raised and taught under a communist system. On a similar note, what about moral values. Like religion, not everyone shares the same moral values and there will be heated debated regarding what is the "right" set of value to teach. Who gets to decide what is moral and what is not? By extension, the question is now, who gets to decide by what is proper to raise and teach children?
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by golilox »

You bring up some very interesting points. And I could have agreed to a point with what you are trying to put across.

As you will notice from my banner I am from the Christian Faith. I was though, not brought up a Christian and choose it for myself. So you could say that I am a good example of what you think should happen. I was a firm atheist and rebelled and argued endlessly against religion and what they stand for. I vowed never to let my kids go to a church but think for themselves. I views religion as a brainwashing tool to make people dance like robots. But.......then I became a Christian and found a church that let me think for myself.

What you don't understand and you can't unless you become a believer is realizing what you were missing. Once you have found that and experienced it in the flesh you cannot watch your children grow up without it because you KNOW that it is the most important thing to helping them grow into an upstanding person.

It is purely what you perceive right and wrong to be. You perceive religion to be wrong so you will not teach it, fare enough! I would not expect you to teach something you do not believe to be true because then you be just telling a lie. You believe but you cannot force all others to believe that same thing though.

In a perfect world yes we would all believe the same thing and all live happily ever after. But I am sorry this is not the case. What you are actually saying is "teach the children nothing about religion" but isn't that a religion in itself? Yip its called being an atheist. Also you cannot make an informed decision to join a religion because, hey you havn't been taught about them.

There will always be different opponents in this world so you will have to choose your side. There isn't really a way around it. You just have to hope and believe that the good will win out at the end of the day.
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by Megadeth666 »

golilox wrote:
In a perfect world yes we would all believe the same thing and all live happily ever after. But I am sorry this is not the case. What you are actually saying is "teach the children nothing about religion" but isn't that a religion in itself? Yip its called being an atheist. Also you cannot make an informed decision to join a religion because, hey you havn't been taught about them.

There will always be different opponents in this world so you will have to choose your side. There isn't really a way around it. You just have to hope and believe that the good will win out at the end of the day.


Atheist? MMMM , If I don't believe in a certain god, am I an Atheist?...I do pray that certain things will happen, but who/what am I praying to?

Does a Big Bang theory make sense?
Everything is made from atoms, and if there was some sort of huge explosion and atoms got spread all over the universe, would that not explain why or how a living organism be created?
Apparently, you can not believe in heaven and not hell...Maybe we all live in Hell, and Heaven is some where you go if you fail, not surviving living the life you were chosen to live?
Seems to me the Evil is conquering over the Good, but the Good will prevail, only because we will not rot in a jail cell for life.
Just take a simple Union for example...they tell you what to do, who to pay, when to strike, how to take your breaks, where to work...that is a religion in itself, now being sooo greedy, Hell takes over and says F,uck you , we will close up and make you all suffer :-$

I am gonna get slammed here for my opinion, but oh well ....My God will provide me with something, like play games on the internet, and provide food for my family =D>

Click here(x) not to copy my post :twisted:
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by KoolBak »

Well goli...I submit that the idea WAS NOT "teach them nothing", but rather, "teach them objectively" which to me sounds like agnoticism, not atheism. AND..to address the original post, what numbers comparatively do the children of said whack-jobs (bombers / mutilators) represent in the world as a whole?

I am not supporting anyones views here as I dont get involved in these pointless arguments (sorry..."discussions" lol), but I believe your faith has forced you to the other exrteme.

I was raised agnostic and attended a Brothers of the Holy Cross private catholic college, by the way, as it afforded the best education in my area. I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 years of theology I took...especially watching the die hard bible thumpers consitantly fail their courses as they cannot differentiate between FAITH and FACT....lol.

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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by jesterhawk »

Neoteny wrote:The problem that I see with the latter concepts, but not for the former, is that most of these beliefs are not obviously beneficial, and many are quite harmful to some children.
As you might be able to tell from my signature line as well, I am a Christian. I was raised Catholic and then converted to a non-denominational Charismatic Christian (those crazy types that speak in tongues and hang from the rafters). My children go to public school and we teach them at home about the Bible and our faith. There is no teachings about bombing, jihads (that is Muslim and Islam by the way), teenage circumcision or any of those type practices. In school, they are taught about Muslim, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and a few other religions all as part of an initiative to teach the children to about religions of the world. When I asked why they didn't include Christianity, I was told by the superintendent of the school, "Everyone already knows about Christianity." But when I asked him about a few basic concepts of the faith, he didn't have the correct answers. Did I have lobby to make a change? No. I left it be. Why am I telling you this? Because I think you need to know that schools already give students a broad understanding of most of the religions of the world right now in which they can then choose to make their own choice. In fact, my kids came home and told me that the Muslim person they had visit them actually asked who would be interested in learning more and took names and addresses to send information. While this is not an absences of religion which is what you are supporting, I think this achieves the same goal because it is also now required for homeschoolers as well in order to pass and have an equivalent degree. My only issue would be that they draw a line at presenting the facts and not actually use the time to proselytizing the children and that is fine with me. However, I would have great issue with imposing on me or anyone else that they could not raise their children to know about their faith.


Neoteny wrote:Do we not have the right to raise our children the way we want to? The answer to this question should be obvious: a resounding "NO!"
I don't know where you think you are coming from but you are wrong. As parents we are charged with the care and upbringing of our children and the includes the education and religious education of our children. Just because there are a few nut-jobs out there does not mean that we should stop all parents from doing what they are good at doing. It is like saying some people have been strangled to death by bare hands so from now on all people have to have their hands tied behind their back. That would be absurd and so would it be to take the extreme cases that you mentioned that were very sick and unfortunate and use them to propel an agenda to remove religion from our youth.

Yes, parents do have the right to raise our children the way we want. And if you are a parent then you know what I mean. I can say that the ones that strapped bombs on those kids and sent them into places didn't really love them because how could you do that to a child. No. But I can speak as a parent that I love my children more then I love myself and would do whatever I could for them including giving them the best and that includes what I believe in.


But there is another side of this. Do you really think that you could take a child that is in a loving home and convince them not to want to be like their parents (at least until the teenage years). I mean, I have three kids and until they got to be teenagers where they really began to assert their own personalities, they wanted to be just like dad or just like mom and that included doing everything we did with our faith. There would be no way short of taking my children away, which by the way you would have to do over my dead body and only after a fight, that you could have them raised with absolutely no influence of my faith on them. So, I don't think your proposition is practical.


Megadeth666 wrote:Atheist? MMMM , If I don't believe in a certain god, am I an Atheist?...I do pray that certain things will happen, but who/what am I praying to?
An atheist is one who believes there is no god. So, if you pray and believe that somewhere out there there is some kind of divine entity of some form, then you are not an atheist.


KoolBak wrote:AND..to address the original post, what numbers comparatively do the children of said whack-jobs (bombers / mutilators) represent in the world as a whole?
This is a very good question because without these numbers you could not really make the initial assertion because I would put forth that it is most likely that it is a significantly small number of "whack-jobs" that are out there then good people raising kids.


KoolBak wrote:I was raised agnostic and attended a Brothers of the Holy Cross private catholic college, by the way, as it afforded the best education in my area. I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 years of theology I took...especially watching the die hard bible thumpers consitantly fail their courses as they cannot differentiate between FAITH and FACT....lol.
Interesting. While I understand the difference between faith and fact, isn't theology supposed to be the bridge between the two. I mean, isn't it supposed to the list of doctrines (facts) that one believes and puts faith in? I guess I don't know why they would fail. I know sidebarring and derailing the initial post.
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by MeDeFe »

jesterhawk wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Do we not have the right to raise our children the way we want to? The answer to this question should be obvious: a resounding "NO!"
I don't know where you think you are coming from but you are wrong. As parents we are charged with the care and upbringing of our children and the includes the education and religious education of our children. Just because there are a few nut-jobs out there does not mean that we should stop all parents from doing what they are good at doing. It is like saying some people have been strangled to death by bare hands so from now on all people have to have their hands tied behind their back. That would be absurd and so would it be to take the extreme cases that you mentioned that were very sick and unfortunate and use them to propel an agenda to remove religion from our youth.

I'd say you actually agree with Neoteny here. Notice that Neo is not saying that parent's should be prohibited from raising their own children, he's saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to teach their children whatever they want to just because they're parents, regardless of how dumb what they teach their children is.
You just said that there are nut-jobs out there, I presume that means you think they aren't doing the best job of raising their children and that they should be doing it differently. Is that so different from what Neo said?
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by KoolBak »

Jester - I agree with you on the assumed very small numbers, comparatively, of the problematic...how does one find a reliable number?

RE: bridging the issues.....not neccessarily....the required 4 years' study enciompassed ALL major religions in the history of the world, completely OBJECTIVELY. Part of this was examining the role of FAITH (99%), but the course study was fact only. Very entertaining...I managed straight A's and learned a great deal ;o) The problem with the folks that failed was that they assumed FAITH as FACT, and it simply is not so.

oh....and I know.....Don't Mess With Texas :D

Back to the thread-
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by jesterhawk »

KoolBak wrote:RE: bridging the issues.....not neccessarily....the required 4 years' study enciompassed ALL major religions in the history of the world, completely OBJECTIVELY. Part of this was examining the role of FAITH (99%), but the course study was fact only. Very entertaining...I managed straight A's and learned a great deal ;o) The problem with the folks that failed was that they assumed FAITH as FACT, and it simply is not so.
I see what you are saying.

KoolBak wrote:oh....and I know.....Don't Mess With Texas :D
That's right! You know, I moved to Texas eight and half years ago. I had heard the phrase and thought it was like the state motto. It is actually a state campaign to help clean up the state and stop littering. Kind of ironic how it is used and how it was meant to be used.

KoolBak wrote:Back to the thread-
Um, yes, now back to the thread.
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by Downey »

...my parents told me to jump off the house and eat only pepsi products.
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by Neoteny »

Sup kids. I've got this posted in a few places, in case some of you didn't notice. I just replied to the first, and it was a hell of a post, so I don't have time right now to answer this one or one other. I'll have replies up as soon as I can.

I appreciate the thoughtful posts, and I'm enjoying the read. Don't wait up for me.
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by static_ice »

My mother would read this and reply with an ad-hominem insult.
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by luns101 »

Downey wrote:...my parents told me to jump off the house and eat only pepsi products.


...but obviously that was within their rights to do so
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Re: Parents' rights vs childrens' rights...

Post by CrazyAnglican »

MeDeFe wrote:I'd say you actually agree with Neoteny here. Notice that Neo is not saying that parent's should be prohibited from raising their own children, he's saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to teach their children whatever they want to just because they're parents, regardless of how dumb what they teach their children is.
You just said that there are nut-jobs out there, I presume that means you think they aren't doing the best job of raising their children and that they should be doing it differently. Is that so different from what Neo said?



Perhaps, but "who decides what's too stupid for a parent to teach his children" would really be the operant question. I think JH and Neo would really disagree on that. ;)


Not to mention, what about the counter claim? Religion is consistently and empirically shown to enhance believers' health, longevity, and overall outlook. Neglect is also abusive. For the sake of argument couldn't the counter claim be made that witholding something that I know would enhance my child's quality of life would actually be the more serious abuse. If I withold something as unnecessary to life, but vital to it's quality, as a basic education I'd be guilty of abuse. I would consider it neglect and abuse to withold something so vital as a spiritual education.
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