WWI Ottoman Empire [Quenched]

[oaktown]

• • • • • • Final Forge

---The Ottoman Empire Ma has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. The map has passed rigorous gameplay and graphics examination, and major concerns have been addressed. If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

Post questions and concerns if any.

• • • • • • 

-oaktown

[yeti_c]

I think the Crowns clash a bit - and in Cyprus it almost disappears.

C.

I still think this is a concern.

C.

I still think that this is a concern.

C.

[cairnswk]

I think the Crowns clash a bit - and in Cyprus it almost disappears.

C.

I still think this is a concern.

C.

I still think that this is a concern.

C.

I don't. Now leave alone...you've had three goes at this and i am not going to change it. so.....

[yeti_c]

I think the Crowns clash a bit - and in Cyprus it almost disappears.

C.

I still think this is a concern.

C.

I still think that this is a concern.

C.

I don't. Now leave alone...you've had three goes at this and i am not going to change it. so.....

But - IT LOOKS SHIT - it's totally not upto your usual standard of work... - If I were you I wouldn't be proud of it - come on - you KNOW you can do better.

C.

[cairnswk]

...
But - IT LOOKS SHIT - it's totally not upto your usual standard of work... - If I were you I wouldn't be proud of it - come on - you KNOW you can do better.
C.

No C...i think it looks fine.
You think it looks shit, and it may not be up to your standard, but since this is subjective, and I am happy with it, then leave it go, for God's sake. I've refused three times now. Let it go.

[yeti_c]

...
But - IT LOOKS SHIT - it's totally not upto your usual standard of work... - If I were you I wouldn't be proud of it - come on - you KNOW you can do better.
C.

No C...i think it looks fine.
You think it looks shit, and it may not be up to your standard, but since this is subjective, and I am happy with it, then leave it go, for God's sake. I've refused three times now. Let it go.

There are other people that also mentioned it so you've refused it more than 3 times - which to me means that something needs to be done about it.

C.

[WidowMakers]

...
But - IT LOOKS SHIT - it's totally not upto your usual standard of work... - If I were you I wouldn't be proud of it - come on - you KNOW you can do better.
C.

No C...i think it looks fine.
You think it looks shit, and it may not be up to your standard, but since this is subjective, and I am happy with it, then leave it go, for God's sake. I've refused three times now. Let it go.

There are other people that also mentioned it so you've refused it more than 3 times - which to me means that something needs to be done about it.

C.

Sorry cairns. I have not really been following any maps lately but I just decided to glance through the FF and see what was up. I have to agree with yeti here. The crowns look out of place both due to graphic style and blurred fuzziness.

1) Based on the colors, textures and feel of you map, the crowns seem to be out of place. They are too red and contrasty (if that is a word)
2) They are blurry and blocky. They just look bad

I mean this is your 19th or 20th map. I think you should be making better images than your first map. or at least attempting to make different style look good.
Cairns Coral Coast is one of the best maps you did. Currently you seem to be favoring quantity of maps regardless of the topic or gamplay quality for QUANTITY of maps.

I know you have said in the past that you have lots of time. Spend soem of that time making a map better instead of making 5 maps. Just my 2 cents

Also your legend colors are very similar and I could easily see people getting confused about what goes where.

WM

[cairnswk]

...
But - IT LOOKS SHIT - it's totally not upto your usual standard of work... - If I were you I wouldn't be proud of it - come on - you KNOW you can do better.
C.

No C...i think it looks fine.
You think it looks shit, and it may not be up to your standard, but since this is subjective, and I am happy with it, then leave it go, for God's sake. I've refused three times now. Let it go.

There are other people that also mentioned it so you've refused it more than 3 times - which to me means that something needs to be done about it.

C.

Sorry cairns. I have not really been following any maps lately but I just decided to glance through the FF and see what was up. I have to agree with yeti here. The crowns look out of place both due to graphic style and blurred fuzziness.

1) Based on the colors, textures and feel of you map, the crowns seem to be out of place. They are too red and contrasty (if that is a word)
2) They are blurry and blocky. They just look bad

I mean this is your 19th or 20th map. I think you should be making better images than your first map. or at least attempting to make different style look good.
Cairns Coral Coast is one of the best maps you did. Currently you seem to be favoring quantity of maps regardless of the topic or gamplay quality for QUANTITY of maps.

I know you have said in the past that you have lots of time. Spend soem of that time making a map better instead of making 5 maps. Just my 2 cents

Also your legend colors are very similar and I could easily see people getting confused about what goes where.

WM

thanks Wm for your comments, but i'll treat them with the same contempt that you so arrogantly treated mine with on P9 of your USA 6pack map...you ignored it completely.
your entitled to your opinions, but i've never liked you since the poor experience and railroading time you gave me over the Rail USA map, i know your a good artist and have expressed that many times, but i also think you are so very arrogant, so stick to your territory, and i'll stick to mine.
Over and out.

[oaktown]

crowns... I don't think the basic design is bad, but I agree that something about them doesn't fit the rest of the map. I would first question the color choice; it's a soft pastels map with high-contrast crowns that pop out too much. Second, I would remove the shadows; nothing else about this map is 3-D, so the drop shadows on the crowns just don't make sense, and it completely changes the experience of looking at this map. The color and the shadow make them look like as afterthought that was added by somebody other than the original mapmaker.

As for Wid's comments about quantity vs. quality, I think this is a bigger issue than just you or this map. Yesterday I commented on another map in which the mapmaker clearly just started with his previous map and changed the layout. I've been accused of making three consecutive maps that look the same, and my competition entries are obviously mine. I think that some of the regular mapmakers around here have discovered styles that have worked for us, and those styles are becoming a bit stale. As CC's most prolific mapmaker you are the one most in danger of this. The challenge from here on out is for us to start doing something entirely original and to start exploring new styles, because personally I want each and every one of my maps to look better than my previous one.

[Qwert]

by oaktown » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:54 pm

crowns... I don't think the basic design is bad, but I agree that something about them doesn't fit the rest of the map. I would first question the color choice; it's a soft pastels map with high-contrast crowns that pop out too much. Second, I would remove the shadows; nothing else about this map is 3-D, so the drop shadows on the crowns just don't make sense, and it completely changes the experience of looking at this map. The color and the shadow make them look like as afterthought that was added by somebody other than the original mapmaker.

As for Wid's comments about quantity vs. quality, I think this is a bigger issue than just you or this map. Yesterday I commented on another map in which the mapmaker clearly just started with his previous map and changed the layout. I've been accused of making three consecutive maps that look the same, and my competition entries are obviously mine. I think that some of the regular mapmakers around here have discovered styles that have worked for us, and those styles are becoming a bit stale. As CC's most prolific mapmaker you are the one most in danger of this. The challenge from here on out is for us to start doing something entirely original and to start exploring new styles, because personally I want each and every one of my maps to look better than my previous one.

I think that you talk abouth me.
I think,that you can not say what style is best for map maker,if Cairnswk good with these styles, ofcourse that he will work on these way-every map maker have some specific styles-even WidowMaker have specific style,and people can easy to point with finger what maps he create, so i dont understand why is these now become problem.
I dont want to judge Cairnswk style,its will be to much subjective,because mine style is diferent, like your style Oaktown, and you can not ask that now need to change style.
I belive that every next Cairnswk map become better and better, like mine maps, and Peloponnesian map is much graphicaly better then Imperium romanum.
Also i must say that these is not first time that WM come in last stage and posted first time,when some thing become issue. If he dont have time to visit map for last 3 month,why he even bother to post now.

[cairnswk]

...
I think that you talk abouth me.
I think,that you can not say what style is best for map maker,if Cairnswk good with these styles, ofcourse that he will work on these way-every map maker have some specific styles-even WidowMaker have specific style,and people can easy to point with finger what maps he create, so i dont understand why is these now become problem.
I dont want to judge Cairnswk style,its will be to much subjective,because mine style is diferent, like your style Oaktown, and you can not ask that now need to change style.
I belive that every next Cairnswk map become better and better, like mine maps, and Peloponnesian map is much graphicaly better then Imperium romanum.
Also i must say that these is not first time that WM come in last stage and posted first time,when some thing become issue. If he dont have time to visit map for last 3 month,why he even bother to post now.

Qwert, i don't think they are talking about you, but this was targeted at me.
However i do agree with you on the style comments and about WM.
And i thank you for your support on this style comments

[cairnswk]

On the Crowns....

Postby ZeakCytho » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:36 pm
Just a minor graphical question: why is the port icon a white star in a red circle? Shouldn't it be something that's either port-like, like an anchor, or has some British significance, like a naval ensign or something? Or does the star-circle thing have significance and I'm just ignorant?

Postby oaktown » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:09 pm
And visually I agree with that bit about the star not suggesting ports... maybe instead of making it port-like, you came up with something entirely British looking, since they are British ports? Some kind of British naval insignia? Crown?

by cairnswk » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:26 pm
Port star replaced with British Crown...v15

Postby ZeakCytho » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:03 am
The Akbah port symbol looks significantly smaller than all the other port symbols on the large. The Anglo-Egyptian Sudan one looks too small on the small.

by cairnswk » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:21 am
Akbah was OK. It was Port Sudan that was smaller and missing it's drop shadow. Fixed. Please F5

by ZeakCytho » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:13 am
Are you sure Akbah is okay on the large? It looks so much smaller than the others...

by cairnswk » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:35 am
Yes, it is 18px the same as all the others....and i re-checked for you.

by ZeakCytho » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:43 am
Must be some kind of illusion...or I'm going crazy...
Oh well, nice job on the crowns. I much prefer them to the stars.

by yeti_c » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:03 am
Weirdly - I think the Stars were nicer than the crown...

by cairnswk » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:56 pm
Mmmmm, you are changing you're mind lately. Crowns are a lot nicer now IMHO.


by brandoncfi » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:51 pm

yeti_c wrote:Weirdly - I think the Stars were nicer than the crown...
C.

I would have to agree...but of course you can't make everyone happy

by oaktown » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:19 am
Since there doesn't seem to be any outstanding gameplay concerns being discussed, and mine have all been addressed, I guess there's nothing left for me to do here.

Gameplay Stamp

I like the crowns, but the color doesn't seem to fit the map's overall palette. (Says the colorblind gameplay guy!)

by qwert » Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:32 am
hmm,why you change your previious Stars and put crown? Stars look much better then these crowns.

by cairnswk » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:19 am
Because after putting crowns, i think they look better now.

by The Neon Peon » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:35 pm
If we are keeping the crowns, could you change the constrast between the colors of the crowns slightly to make it a little more? The orange-yellow blends in with the red.
Also, they seem rather jagged round the edges. Possibly smooth them out a little?

by cairnswk » Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:28 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:If we are keeping the crowns, could you change the constrast between the colors of the crowns slightly to make it a little more? The orange-yellow blends in with the red.

Contrast given at 36.

Also, they seem rather jagged round the edges. Possibly smooth them out a little?

They look fine to me.

by asl80 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:01 pm
looking good cairns, good job.
keep the crowns!

by yeti_c » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:44 am
I think the Crowns clash a bit - and in Cyprus it almost disappears.
C.

by Ogrecrusher » Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:47 pm
I also don't like the crowns

by cairnswk » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:05 pm
I am not doing a poll for this one.
Final. The crowns stay.
I believe they are perfectly clear.

by gimil » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:33 pm

Graphics stamp

Well done old buddy.

by yeti_c » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:15 am
I still think this is a concern.
C.

by cairnswk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:20 pm
I don't

by yeti_c » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:19 am
I still think that this is a concern. (the crowns)
C.

by cairnswk » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:22 am
don't. Now leave alone...you've had three goes at this and i am not going to change it. so.....

by yeti_c » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:27 am
But - IT LOOKS SHIT - it's totally not upto your usual standard of work... - If I were you I wouldn't be proud of it - come on - you KNOW you can do better.
C.

by cairnswk » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:38 am
No C...i think it looks fine.
You think it looks shit, and it may not be up to your standard, but since this is subjective, and I am happy with it, then leave it go, for God's sake. I've refused three times now. Let it go.

by yeti_c » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:51 am
There are other people that also mentioned it so you've refused it more than 3 times - which to me means that something needs to be done about it.

and one comments by WM (which i will ignore) and the last one by oaktown above.


1. It was oaktown who convinced me to change to crowns after zeak's comments
2. After some checking of the crowns for zeak (who preferred them to stars) C arrives and prefers the stars.
3. oaktown prefers the crowns but not the colour (from a colourblind guy - his words)
4. qwert prefers the stars
5. Neon Peon asks for alteration to crowns and gets his contrast check done.
6. asl80 says keep the crowns
7. C still not happy with the crowns..he still prefers the stars.
8. ogrecrusher doesn't like the crowns
9. gimil has no issues with the crowns
10. C still has issues with crowns...he didn't like them in the first place.
11. oaktown now backing up behind C. with some excuse about non 3-D

For Crowns:
cairnswk
zeak
gimil (assumption since no comment on crowns and graphic stamp given)
asl80
neon peon
and from the lack of comments, i can assume everyone else who might have viewed the map

Against the crowns:
Yeti_C (who never liked them in the first place preferring stars)
qwert (who preferred stars)
brandocfi (who prefers stars)
ogrecrusher
and oaktown (who likes the crowns but is colourblind and now appears to be backing up C. with comments about contrast)

Honestly, guys. I really don't beleive this.
C. You are the one who is leading this little charge. You've never liked the crowns from the outset and appear set on getting your way, which is something i've noticed about you over my maps that you've commented on....you get hold of something and you don't let iut go until you get your own way. Well that won't happen here. You can say "I'd told you so" again later, it still won't matter to me.You can all on about various issues.
I have stated before and i will state this one last time.

The will be no poll done.
I am happy with the crowns and their appearance as they are.
There will be no changes made to them.
If you don't believe me, then oaktown you can move this map to the junk pile rile now and it will never be quenched.
This map is done as far as i am concerned.
There are maps in this place that have been quenched with far less standard of graphic ability that this one, and since I am the mapmaker on this map and am happy with it, then it goes as is or it doesn't go at all. I have addressed small issues with crowns from commentors and am happy with the result.
And i will also add this, I make maps here because i enjoy doing so. Each of my maps is different in flavour. Some of the style is similar because i use Fireworks and that has limitations.
I do not get paid for the time i put into these maps apart from a paltry membership which now means nothing after so many maps.
I enjoy what i do graphically, and will challenge myself when i deem it is necessary to challenge myself, not when others cannot get their own-way.

Version 15 remains as is.

Click image to enlarge.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... n_V15S.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... n_V15L.jpg

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_WWI_Ottoman_Empire.xml

[Qwert]

Cairnswk-Oaktown is speak abouth me,look hes yesteday post in peloponnesian war.

And one more thing

C. You are the one who is leading this little charge(do you think to Yeti?)

I must say that nobody are leader over mine oppinion,and i just say what im thinking abouth crown.

by qwert » Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:32 am
hmm,why you change your previious Stars and put crown? Stars look much better then these crowns.

by cairnswk » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:19 am
Because after putting crowns, i think they look better now

and after your answer i dont say nothing, so i think that you made little mistake adding me in Yeti charge group.

[oaktown]

and you can not ask that now need to change style.

If you read post my post I think it is pretty clear that I didn't ask cairnswk to change the style of the map - sorry to take this thread off-topic, but I want to be clear that this map looks quite good, and should NOT be redone. If the Foundry felt that this map was bad, it wouldn't be in the Forge right now. The only change I support is making the crowns fit the map better, and my specific suggestions were to make the crowns a color that fit the overall palette and losing the drop shadow. It's just a suggestion, and my suggestions have been ignored before... so be it.

The concern about one's style becoming predictable and, ultimately, stale is, as I said, a bigger concern than any one map, and is for each individual mapmaker to come to terms with. We can have that conversation elsewhere... a newsletter editorial perhaps?

What we have here is a pissing match between mapmakers. On the one hand we have cairnswk, who insists that the crown graphic is as good as it will be. On the other hand we have a handful of Foundry regulars who think that the crowns can be better. At this stage in the process I am inclined to side with the mapmaker - this is cairnswk's map and he has to put his name on it - not me - so if this is how he wants to present the map than let it be so.

Of course, this also brings up larger issues - do we allow mapmakers to publish any old piece of crap so long as it is what they believe in?

[yeti_c]

I'm quite happy for the crowns to stay (Yes I did say that I preferred the stars - but I can see you want crowns - that is fine) - but it's the fact that the colours on them needs changing...

I don't understand what the big deal is - it's a simple change that you could do in seconds that would make the map look a lot better.

C.

[ZeakCytho]

I also think the crowns could be improved. I prefer them conceptually to the stars, but I think the execution could be made better by playing with the colors and the drop shadow.

But honestly Cairns, you have a really rotten attitude about this. You're basically saying "I'll do it my way no matter what, f*ck what other people suggest." You more than anyone should know that this is not how the foundry works. It's a peer review system. By telling the whole foundry that you refuse to take input, you make people less interested in giving feedback on your maps. If a mapmaker do not want to make a certain change but there is a fair amount community pressure in favor of it, any new mapmaker would essentially be forced into making the change. Experienced mapmakers should not be held to a different standard.

[cairnswk]

Click image to enlarge.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... n_V15S.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... n_V15L.jpg

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_WWI_Ottoman_Empire.xml

[Achilles1234]

I like the idea good job.

[Qwert]

Cairnswk, what is situation here,still in ignore stage from CA. Same situation with mine map to.

[oaktown]

Cairnswk, what is situation here,still in ignore stage from CA. Same situation with mine map to.

Ignore? Hey now, I would never ignore one of Cairnswk's maps!



Coordinates look good to me. Thanks as always to ForzaAZ for looking over the code.

My position on the crowns stands - it's cairnswk's map, the crowns are a matter of taste/opinion, so if the mapmaker stands behind them as is and doesn't want to make a change then I say we quench this thing. So Cairnswk - if you say this thing is done and there are no other concerns I will give this map over to the monkey in the big chair.

[cairnswk]

Cairnswk, what is situation here,still in ignore stage from CA. Same situation with mine map to.

Ignore? Hey now, I would never ignore one of Cairnswk's maps!



Coordinates look good to me. Thanks as always to ForzaAZ for looking over the code.

My position on the crowns stands - it's cairnswk's map, the crowns are a matter of taste/opinion, so if the mapmaker stands behind them as is and doesn't want to make a change then I say we quench this thing. So Cairnswk - if you say this thing is done and there are no other concerns I will give this map over to the monkey in the big chair.

Thank-you for the xml stamp Oaktown.
Further to the crown situation, I have tested and tried several other versions and colours but nothing appeases me on these. I could use the simple four point gold crown of the earlier English kings, but this would be out of period. I chose this crown because it fits the period even though it is small i still believe it is fitting the map. It is essentially the very same crown that is on one of players ranks except mine has a slight shadow to it. It is not as though it is not visible.
I am happy with it.
As for the ignore, i think qwert was simply wishing things would go faster, but i have explained that everything is slow at present and for him to have patience. I am sure he will understand.
And yes, thanks Forza AZ

[Qwert]

My position on the crowns stands - it's cairnswk's map, the crowns are a matter of taste/opinion, so if the mapmaker stands behind them as is and doesn't want to make a change then I say we quench this thing. So Cairnswk - if you say this thing is done and there are no other concerns I will give this map over to the monkey in the big chair.

Man, i hope that some day you will support mine map also,and say these words to, that map maker best know what is good for hes map, then i will be most happy here in CC.

[oaktown]

Man, i hope that some day you will support mine map also,and say these words to, that map maker best know what is good for hes map, then i will be most happy here in CC.

Well, cairnswk has a history of treating his fellow mapmakers respectfully, so I try to return that respect. That doesn't mean I like everything he has done - I offered plenty of criticism to the Cairns Metro map when I thought it lacked style - but I trust that when I offer cairnswk criticism it is accepted in the spirit in which it was intended. And cairnswk also understands that the CAs are human, and occasionally take time off for holidays and the like.

I have tested and tried several other versions and colours but nothing appeases me on these. I could use the simple four point gold crown of the earlier English kings, but this would be out of period. I chose this crown because it fits the period even though it is small i still believe it is fitting the map. It is essentially the very same crown that is on one of players ranks except mine has a slight shadow to it. It is not as though it is not visible.

I never had a problem with the shape/style of the crowns, though maybe others did. In fact, I think the style of the crowns are entirely appropriate for CC and the map, especially since they reflect the silhouette of the rank crowns. My hope was that they could be desaturated a touch to fit the color palette of the map, and maybe lose the 3-D effect...

[cairnswk]

.... My hope was that they could be desaturated a touch to fit the color palette of the map, and maybe lose the 3-D effect...

Mmmm, tried that one too, but i don't like it. Sorry.

[cairnswk]

.....
I never had a problem with the shape/style of the crowns, though maybe others did. In fact, I think the style of the crowns are entirely appropriate for CC and the map, especially since they reflect the silhouette of the rank crowns. My hope was that they could be desaturated a touch to fit the color palette of the map, and maybe lose the 3-D effect...

I wonder of this will appease everyone. Crowns are newly worked and have a royal purple background plate behind them.

Click image to enlarge.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... n_V16S.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... n_V16L.jpg

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_WWI_Ottoman_Empire.xml