England Map [Quenched]

[Merciless Wong]

I think you could easily confuse East Anglia with

[the.killing.44]

I think you could easily confuse East Anglia with

I wholeheartedly agree with the quoted comment in its entirety.

.44

P.S. In a real comment, just grow up. Seriously, you're mad at Benn because he posted in your map only somewhat negatively — more constructively at that. Now you complain about this not being unique? Have you checked the bonus system? I challenge you to find a quenched map with that kind of bonus system (sans Berlin, and conquest style maps of course). I suggest you take a step back, get over your (pseudo-)anger (more a form of bitterness/jealousy IMO) at Benn here, and stop making things up.

Oh, and re: your comment on "just a simple geographical map." It's not officially written down, but I guarantee you if a the community likes a type of map, they will keep coming no matter the uniqueness, save something nearly exactly the same, of course. I bet if I took a day (not gonna happen) and compiled all the comments in the foundry saying "another plain, straightforward geographical map — just the kind I like!" it would go beyond the character limit.

That is all. I still have nothing to add to the actual map. And sorry for venting

[Merciless Wong]

I mean North West and South East.

[Merciless Wong]

You can accuse me of bias or you can answer the question; what makes this map unique? I agree its beautiful but is the minor tweak to the bonus really something that will make it unique.

If forum popularity overides all, that just sets the stage for a clique to approve of maps of other members in the clique without real variety.. Plus you risk the intimidation principle where no one critiques a cartographer map because they might find themselves having trouble with their maps.

Unique in Conquer Club at present is largely a different location not a different theme. Or a map with a really strange rule kit that gets used once. You could call this Geography Club at the rate we are just producing more and more regional maps. Admittedly, of great beauty but in some ways very, very similar.

We have the following maps in the region
Scotland - has cities
Wales - has cities but the cities are a separate terit
British Isles - Has Hadrians's wall
Ireland - Plain Vanilla

And now this. Which sounds fancy but isn't all that different. I mean, the districts aren't that big so 3 terits in 1 district, is usually a +1 maximum and a +2 maximum for a couple of districts (SouthWest, SouthEast, East Anglia). If you actually played the thing, it would play a lot like any vanilla map made up of largely uniform territories with no chokepoints and a lot like Ireland and British Isles 2. You would end up trying to set up a defensive front (a line across the island) in the North or the South West and expand from there. It looks like a token rule change to satisfy the uniqueness rule.

Secondly, I have to question the balance of the same continent bonuses for continents varying in size. The +1 per 3 helps a little but I would argue that this map would in random placement give a big advantage based on starting position. A good drop in a small continent or a continent with lots of fronts blocked by water is great. If you insist on the current bonus structure then make the continents closer in size (NorthEast is 2 terits for +2, Yorkshire, 3 terits for +2). You could erode the value of a coastal continent a bit by linking them up with sea routes so the coastal continents are less defensible.

On clarity- Line to isle of wight, make Scotland and Wales non-green. They confused me until I worked out they weren't terits.

On theme- Again "a green and pleasant land" for a wargame? Does that speak to you? The bigger quotation would work better.
I am going to be abused personally again but I have had to draft a mini-essay on politics, Machiavelli and war on my Prince in the City project and its still a draft. Am I not allowed to question theme at the same level of detail because the map is pretty?

I don't like the uniqueness rule as currently applied and I think its used to discourage amateurs who aren't photoshop gurus. But I do think that the rule should stand for pretty maps as well as amateurs or be scaled back for everyone.

[the.killing.44]

You can accuse me of bias or you can answer the question? What makes this map unique?

The bonus system. Why don't you get it's unique when only one (right?) non-conquest map uses it?!

You can claim that forum popularity overides all, but that just sets the stage for a clique to approve of maps of other members in the clique without through varitety.

Uh … doesn't this forum fit your description?

…
Wales - has cities but the cities are a separate terit
…

So that's Wales's gameplay. Well, you're the expert. I mean you've played no games on it, so you should know.

.44

[saaimen]

I mean North West and South East.

Oh, would you seriously confuse those two for being one region?
Great argument man.

[Merciless Wong]

I'm just saying that a slight tweak to rules doesn't make it play differently.
Feel free to ignore me then, I have no say in this forum and stamps.
I just think the map will be happy-claps-cheers with the graphics crowd and not be played heavily after the initial period.

The most common maps I've seen in play are Greece, Artic, Classic Shapes, World 2.0, Archipelago, USA and Tamriel. They are vanilla with chokepoints introuced by water, mountains or attack line designs, careful continent bonus balance and some incentives to actually fight in the form of forward defenses (like the Ukraine-Middle East territories in Risk)

Ireland is the best UK map so far partly from a repeat play viewpoint because of some impassibility in the middle.
Do a find games and do a brief count of the first 10 pages of active maps. Its a statistically significant result when you have 50+ maps to choose form and the same 10 or so are the only ones that repeat.

[Merciless Wong]

Yorkshire and North East then. Can't read the district names in a rush. So I can't assume similar colors separated by other terits are not one district.

Like I said, I have no authority but if I'm totally off-base, it should be easy to clarify why my objections are invalid. Or just ignore me.

[the.killing.44]

Yorkshire and North East then. Can't read the district names in a rush. So I can't assume similar colors separated by other terits are not one district.

Like I said, I have no authority but if I'm totally off-base, it should be easy to clarify why my objections are invalid. Or just ignore me.

How do you find those easily confusable? You can't read the names in a rush? None of your arguments make any sense.

.44

[yeti_c]

Also have to dispute the balance of the game. +2 for all districts mean really small (2-3 terit) districts do very well? Also +1 per 3 in same district means because of rounding, 4 and 5 terit districts are shortchanged because they can nver get to +2 on terits in district.

This has been balanced already - the fact that some districts are shortchanged is actually part of the plan.

Also... where are the chokepoints and impassability? Not much strategy if everything is indefensible other than by garrisoning every territory in the district.

I see no need for chokepoints - the idea of the map is for it to be open - the bonus and the gameplay have been developed around this ideal.

I don't mean to dispute that the mpa is graphically beautiful but apparently the criteria is on multiple fronts. Unique in terms of looks, theme and gameplay?
I don't see the theme and gameplay uniqueness other than the fact its England... which is just UK with areas blocked out when there are no thematic components.

Unique Looks = No other map looks like this on CC.
Unique Theme = England
Unique Gameplay = Unique Bonus structure.

The game would play almost exactly like the Ireland game.

No it won't - in fact you contradict yourself here...

Ireland is the best UK map so far partly from a repeat play viewpoint because of some impassibility in the middle.

The "green and pleasant land" is very England and fits with the shades of green. But
how is that consistent with a wargame? Try the full quote from Blake.

The simple short quote makes me think of the full quote - in fact it makes me think of the whole song - and that sends a shiver down my spine - the short quote is doing it's job - perfectly.

You can accuse me of bias or you can answer the question; what makes this map unique? I agree its beautiful but is the minor tweak to the bonus really something that will make it unique.

Yes.

If forum popularity overides all, that just sets the stage for a clique to approve of maps of other members in the clique without real variety.. Plus you risk the intimidation principle where no one critiques a cartographer map because they might find themselves having trouble with their maps.

Forum popularity has nothing to do with this map - in fact this map isn't as popular as many others - it only has 13 pages to it.

Unique in Conquer Club at present is largely a different location not a different theme. Or a map with a really strange rule kit that gets used once. You could call this Geography Club at the rate we are just producing more and more regional maps. Admittedly, of great beauty but in some ways very, very similar.

People like playing in their own backyard - the members of CC are all around the earth - there will be the want for more geographical maps on this site until every possible combination of square inches of the worlds surface is mapped - on another note: why are you labelling this specific map with this problem - there are many more geographical maps in the foundry at the moment.

We have the following maps in the region
Scotland - has cities
Wales - has cities but the cities are a separate terit
British Isles - Has Hadrians's wall
Ireland - Plain Vanilla

Sounds like we need an England map then.

And now this. Which sounds fancy but isn't all that different. I mean, the districts aren't that big so 3 terits in 1 district, is usually a +1 maximum and a +2 maximum for a couple of districts (SouthWest, SouthEast, East Anglia). If you actually played the thing, it would play a lot like any vanilla map made up of largely uniform territories with no chokepoints and a lot like Ireland and British Isles 2. You would end up trying to set up a defensive front (a line across the island) in the North or the South West and expand from there. It looks like a token rule change to satisfy the uniqueness rule.

How you play the game is upto you - I reckon your tactics sound a bit flawed - good luck.

Secondly, I have to question the balance of the same continent bonuses for continents varying in size. The +1 per 3 helps a little but I would argue that this map would in random placement give a big advantage based on starting position. A good drop in a small continent or a continent with lots of fronts blocked by water is great. If you insist on the current bonus structure then make the continents closer in size (NorthEast is 2 terits for +2, Yorkshire, 3 terits for +2). You could erode the value of a coastal continent a bit by linking them up with sea routes so the coastal continents are less defensible.

The different size of the continents provides balance - otherwise we could just play CC on graph paper.

On clarity- Line to isle of wight, make Scotland and Wales non-green. They confused me until I worked out they weren't terits.

I disagree with this point.

On theme- Again "a green and pleasant land" for a wargame? Does that speak to you? The bigger quotation would work better.
I am going to be abused personally again but I have had to draft a mini-essay on politics, Machiavelli and war on my Prince in the City project and its still a draft. Am I not allowed to question theme at the same level of detail because the map is pretty?

Answered before - more rehashing.

I don't like the uniqueness rule as currently applied and I think its used to discourage amateurs who aren't photoshop gurus. But I do think that the rule should stand for pretty maps as well as amateurs or be scaled back for everyone.

I still stand by this map being unique (FWIW - "Uniqueness" doesn't have different levels - it is either "unique" or not - something cannot be more or less unique than something else.)

C.

[the.killing.44]

on another note: why are you labelling this specific map with this problem - there are many more geographical maps in the foundry at the moment.

Because he's mad/jealous of Benn because of the fact "Prince of the City" is still a draft …
Wong stop going over and over what you've said times before. Your arguments are the same weak ones, and you're not winning. Suck it up, and work on Prince of the City, unless you feel those are your final images.

.44

[Merciless Wong]

Actually, the issue of a wargame being played in a map titled "a green and pleasant land" has never been answered.

Why does the map look different? Its all green, Iceland is all blue. Does this mean an all red Russia map is automatically unique.

Does the bonus structure really make that much of a difference? Its a tweak. A 6 territ district gets +4, a 3, 4 or 5 territ gets +3 and a 2 territ gets +2 and there are some minor bonuses for partial acquisition.

Does unique theme mean any geography that has not been covered? If so I'll do a map of Sabah or Sarawak and get automatic uniqueness.

Plus I don't see how my theme objection to "green and pleasant land" as a wargame has been answered.

Delibrately open is a good idea.. but if so, I would take away the +2 for the districts. And add some sea routes between coastal territories so they don't get a 'back to the wall' advantage.

Gameplay wise, someone gettting lucky and getting good random placement on the small territories or the rare one will do very well.

[Merciless Wong]

on another note: why are you labelling this specific map with this problem - there are many more geographical maps in the foundry at the moment.

Because he's mad/jealous of Benn because of the fact "Prince of the City" is still a draft …
Wong stop going over and over what you've said times before. Your arguments are the same weak ones, and you're not winning. Suck it up, and work on Prince of the City, unless you feel those are your final images.

.44

Attack the person, doesn't answer the questions.

[Merciless Wong]

I understand the impetus behind the map, but personally this seems like an extraordinarily well-represented part of the world in CC maps. Now, if you were to pick up Hastings again, that would be different, but this seems like it would be a pretty ho-hum addition to the canon: classic gameplay, 42ish terits, ultra-familiar geography... sorry, MrB, but it's kinda meh.

I'm not the only one with this view. I just don't have a group of buds to shout down objections.

[the.killing.44]

Actually, the issue of a wargame being played in a map titled "a green and pleasant land" has never been answered.

How does this have any value for an argument? Canada says "A Mari Usque ad Mare". Is that a problem? It's something for England! Why don't you get these maps aren't just war boards.

Why does the map look different? Its all green, Iceland is all blue. Does this mean an all red Russia map is automatically unique.

I'm interested to see what Iceland you're looking at.

Does the bonus structure really make that much of a difference? Its a tweak. A 6 territ district gets +4, a 3, 4 or 5 territ gets +3 and a 2 territ gets +2 and there are some minor bonuses for partial acquisition.

Yes. It does. It's not the overall scheme of things, its the structure. +1 for two territories is unique.

Plus I don't see how my theme objection to "green and pleasant land" as a wargame has been answered.

How many times are you going to say this?
quote="Merciless Wong"]Gameplay wise, someone gettting lucky and getting good random placement on the small territories or the rare one will do very well.[/quote]

I understand the impetus behind the map, but personally this seems like an extraordinarily well-represented part of the world in CC maps. Now, if you were to pick up Hastings again, that would be different, but this seems like it would be a pretty ho-hum addition to the canon: classic gameplay, 42ish terits, ultra-familiar geography... sorry, MrB, but it's kinda meh.

I'm not the only one with this view. I just don't have a group of buds to shout down objections.

lol. Thats from page 1. He was going to do classic gameplay then. Verrry different now.

.44

[yeti_c]

Rehashed old rubbish.

Did you read my post?

Or did you fancy just repeating what you've already said in slightly different form?

Delibrately open is a good idea.. but if so, I would take away the +2 for the districts. And add some sea routes between coastal territories so they don't get a 'back to the wall' advantage.

One minute you're talking about unpassables and choke points - the next you're talking about adding sea routes - which is it you would rather have?

C.

[yeti_c]

I understand the impetus behind the map, but personally this seems like an extraordinarily well-represented part of the world in CC maps. Now, if you were to pick up Hastings again, that would be different, but this seems like it would be a pretty ho-hum addition to the canon: classic gameplay, 42ish terits, ultra-familiar geography... sorry, MrB, but it's kinda meh.

I'm not the only one with this view. I just don't have a group of buds to shout down objections.

And to add to .44's point - it's not only a very old comment - but one that wasn't fair - the USA is the MOST represented area of the world at CC - it's only fair that people who live in the UK & England get to have maps of where they live.

C.

[RjBeals]

Why does the map look different? Its all green, Iceland is all blue. Does this mean an all red Russia map is automatically unique.

I'm interested to see what Iceland you're looking at.

I can only assume he means Greenland.

But each map doesn't have to be completely different. Classic gameplay can only go so far. But the variety of the maps is what keeps the game fresh.

[bryguy]

I seriously love this map. Cant wait for it to get quenched. Only a few small things:

1) The sideways text is a little annoying...
2) Why, on the small, is there an 88 right on a 3 way border?

[Merciless Wong]

I agree that not any map has to be different but when we look at say Mr. Benn's review of the Rio's Slums map, 'like Classic' seems to be a stopper of maps in drafts. Just curious how come we can argue for a relaxed standard here?

My comments on gameplay aren't out of line. Early on impassability was discussed but Mr Benn chose to keep it open. Moody called out some balance issues on the South East and someone called for the 2 territory +2 bonus to be made default neutral to be a lucky drop.
Do analysis of number of border terits, total bonuses and number of terits. Clearly some inconsistency. I would change the bonuses to a table or add paths so territories of similar sizes have the same number of vulnerable points. Either would restore balance.

I think the comment on the district name not visible was made before, but Benn left it as is for graphical reasons. I'm just saying it confuses me.

Again on theme: "green and pleasant land" = wargame? Ignore it if you want, I don't get it. Maps have been challenged in draft on far less by Mr Benn.

Simply using forum support as a proxy is limited. No one wants to be critical to someone who then hands stamps out on his own projects. And plenty of people will criticise the motives of anyone challenging a map by someone who approves drafts.

Feel free to ignore me, if you think the comments are worthless, why does it matter?

[yeti_c]

Feel free to ignore me, if you think the comments are worthless, why does it matter?

I'm not ignoring you - I've replied to every one of your points - yet you are ignoring me.

C.

[Merciless Wong]

I'll stick with the "historic counties" theme

so that leaves only yorkshire with non-traditional post-1974 borders instead of the original ridings! any chance of finishing the job?

http://www.yorkshire-ridings.org.uk/
http://www.chromavision.co.uk/yt/map.htm

I think I'm settled with the three lions now - I'm also planning to keep the 'Green and Pleasant Land' subtitle. The eagle-eyed may notice the opening lines of Land of Hope and Glory skirting along the western edge of the map

good decision on the lions! the rousing, flag-waving land of hope and glory conveys a completely different picture of england from the peaceful green and pleasant land tagline. how would it look with the following four lines on the left instead?

I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

The bonus system is hard to understand - could it not be simplified to a straight "hold the region - get the bonus"?

this is a good point. in particular, the "receive 2 armies for holding a region" bonus will tend to send players scurrying to the corners to seek out the easiest regions to hold, with the midlands being neglected.

ian.

Look Incanton raised the objections I raised not that long ago. I guess these are dated because of the inset addition then removal but with the inset gone, how are these objections out of date.

Stop trying to railroad a reasonable objection by personal attacks which the mapmaker should be responding to.

[yeti_c]

Feel free to ignore me, if you think the comments are worthless, why does it matter?

I'm not ignoring you - I've replied to every one of your points - yet you are ignoring me.

C.

[Merciless Wong]

yeti c :

Not sure what the historical standards are, but I am applying uniqueness criteria, clarity objections, thematic objections precisely at the high level Mr Benn is applying on drafts and even cited the draft.

Don't want to get in a "yes it is","no I'm not fight with you". I have responded where
have seen anything substantiative to respond to. I will cite the exchange below as an example. I argued I am applying the uniqueness criteria as applied elsewhere. You said you disagree because unique is unique and the map is unique without a reason. I have nothing substantiative to respond to.

Where you cited something substantiative e.g. Mr Benn intends for the map to be open
I have acknowledged that eg "Delibrately open is a good idea.. but if so, I would take away the +2 for the districts. And add some sea routes between coastal territories so they don't get a 'back to the wall' advantage."

I think the "green and pleasant" theme is off and balance is still lacking and I have quoted others earlier of this view.

I have constructively suggested altering the balance equation, dumping the fixed bonus or adding sea routes.

Feel free to ignore it, I don't retract it because of personal attacks or rhetoric.

----------------------------------------------------
Merciless Wong wrote:
I don't like the uniqueness rule as currently applied and I think its used to discourage amateurs who aren't photoshop gurus. But I do think that the rule should stand for pretty maps as well as amateurs or be scaled back for everyone.

you wrote:
I still stand by this map being unique (FWIW - "Uniqueness" doesn't have different levels - it is either "unique" or not - something cannot be more or less unique than something else.)

---------------------

[saaimen]

I think the "green and pleasant" theme is off

Really, dude...
Ever seen Doodle Earth?
"My name is Wit and I'm 7 and I think everybody in the whole world can get along."
I don't see that map getting ignored for being non-warfare-promoting.
It's irony. Obviously something you need to look up.