Wanda Sykes...

[KLOBBER]

True.

Thank God he's gone.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Were he using personal attacks to refute arguments, he would indeed be guilty of ad hominems. But he isn't, he merely adds insults to rile up the other party to post stupid things. A hostile tone is not the same as an ad hominem argument.

I do think that if he were more confident in his arguments or his ability to argue, he would not use personal attacks. The problem with Sultan is that while most people use things like "urgay" and "suck it," Sultan likes to use an extensive vocabulary. While I love well-thought-out flames as much as the next person, I think a lot of people refuse to call him out because he uses an extensive vocabulary. Oh well, it doesn't really matter, except that GabonX is wrong. I wish I had the wherewithal to search through all of Sultan's posts to find some ad hominems, but I don't care enough.

i wish you did have the wherewithal to look because i don't use ad hominem attacks. i dispute points, sometimes without substantiation because f*ck trying to explain to someone as stupendously retarded as, say, targetman, the 10,000 ways he's wrong on a specific issue. the insults are free of charge and separate from my concerns over the insulted's awful and wrongheaded opinions

[SultanOfSurreal]

All right, riddle me this..

..If the purpose of an insult when included in the context of a debate is not to discredit the person, what is the purpose of the insult?

to make you really angry

mission accomplished

[mpjh]

It is not an insult to tell someone they are stupid, if they are stupid.

[b.k. barunt]

Strangely enough, the white population did ok, probably because the only police to be found were on the Mississippi Bridge, the Causeway Bridge, and a couple points on the parish line manning armed barricades that kept the negroes contained in New Orleans and out of the white folks hoods.

Wow... that's freaking nuts. Why didn't the police let everyone into the safe spots? You'd think the police wouldn't barricade hungry, thirsty people whose homes were just washed away. I don't think there's enough of an outcry about that shit.

Honibaz, were you there when the levee broke? What was it like where you were?

I was at my parents' in Northern Calif. at the time. My father had a stroke and i had to go there and help out. My son went to Texas for the evac and my wife worked at the hospital so i knew she was safe, but i felt helpless watching it on TV and seeing those elderly blacks and the women and children wandering in the heat on the interstate (you gotta know New Orleans heat in early September - like a fooking blast furnace) made me want to kill that little sonofabitch. They get on the interstate and figure they'll be able to walk somewhere eventually, but they're met with a washed out bridge in the east, and armed troops and cops simply turning them away when they go west. So all these people can do is wander on the fooking interstate for 5 days.

Nobunga, i'm 57 and that was the most out and out case of racism by our government that i've seen in my lifetime. Armed troops keeping the negroes from reaching food, water and shelter in the white neighborhoods and you question whether or not it was racist? What do you call apartheid? Inept zoning practices?


Honibaz

[mpjh]

Yes, that is racism, that is it.

[Nobunaga]

... Were those national police directed by George Bush? (to stay on point) You say "troops". National guard? (state, not national troops?)

... Sounds more like a Ray Nagin problem to me, if they were local cops.

... I am arguing simply because so many are so ready to label GW a racist when consistent evidence just isn't there in my mind and while at the same time his White House was truly a racial and ethnic mix. Tell me GW was giving orders to keep Blacks away from food / water and I will at least partially agree with you. Class issues have to be considered as well.

... Am I wandering off topic to point out that Robert Byrd, Democratic Senator and Exalted Cyclops (had to look that up)in the KKK is still there serving? .... Immune it seems to attack from the left.

... A much more open & shut case of racism in our national government if you ask me. This guy is 3rd in line for the Presidency, should Biden and Pelosi fall aside. Yet not a peep of criticism. Odd, that.

...

[thegreekdog]

Yes, that is rascism... ridiculous. I hope all those bastards were fired (but I doubt it).

Bush is stupid, classless, and let his religion cloud his judgment, but I'm not sure he's rascist. Maybe he is, I just don't know and nothing anyone has reported about has lead me to believe he's rascist.

[mpjh]

Your logic is pathetically inadequate. This area has a long history of racial segregation with violent enforcement. These guys were local cops keeping blacks out of white areas. On one bridge several black men were shot down, unarmed, for trying to cross the bridge into a white area. If you can't see the racism in that, well you are blinded by your own racism. Also, you are stupid.

[lgoasklucyl]

Your logic is pathetically inadequate. This area has a long history of racial segregation with violent enforcement. These guys were local cops keeping blacks out of white areas. On one bridge several black men were shot down, unarmed, for trying to cross the bridge into a white area. If you can't see the racism in that, well you are blinded by your own racism. Also, you are stupid.

I spoke to a police officer from the town I live in who had a good number of his fellow officers (and himself) sent down to New Orleans during the ordeals.

He told me that they were specifically directed to 'Shoot first, ask questions later, regardless of probable cause'.

While that may not be a direct order from the almighty Bush himself, the government was blatantly overusing their powers in order to exercise blatant classism. While it was not directed directly at African-American or other minority populations living in New Orleans and affected by the tragedy, residential segregation existed enough between upper and lower New Orleans that it could very well be perceived as such.

Anyone arguing a lack of racism here would probably be the same person to defend police in the disturbing cases of Rodney King, Akbar, or Amadou Diallo.

[Nobunaga]

Your logic is pathetically inadequate. This area has a long history of racial segregation with violent enforcement. These guys were local cops keeping blacks out of white areas. On one bridge several black men were shot down, unarmed, for trying to cross the bridge into a white area. If you can't see the racism in that, well you are blinded by your own racism. Also, you are stupid.

... I am bright enough not to claim Bush is a racist while having nothing whatsoever to support the claim.

... Evidence - we're waiting. BK is on board trying to help you out with actual events that transpired... what have you got?

... (Progressive classic: When you're cornered in an argument and you've made unsupportable claims, hurl personal insults to distract onlookers).

... MPJH: "Yeah, now everybody knows Nobunaga is stupid... Haha! I win! Bush is a racist because Nobunaga is stupid!"

... You crack me up.

...

[b.k. barunt]

I see Nobunga's still trying to play down Bush's role and blame it on local politicians. Another typical right wing pushthisbuttonwhenallelsefails - quick point a finger at a racist democrat (Byrd). Does Byrd's racism negate the racism of George Bush? Wtf?

Bottom line, no other group of Americans (well, maybe Indians) would have been left without food and water and forced to wander a highway in the Louisiana summer heat like that. 5 fooking days! Bush showed his utter disdain for these people by his halfassed response, and my respect for nobunga's political savvy just dropped a good bit. This isn't about right and left, it's about common human decency.


Honibaz

[Timminz]

Also, you are stupid.

....because Nobunaga is stupid!

"Also", and "because" are two completely different words, with two completely different meanings.

For further reference, please see yesterday afternoon's portion of this thread.

[lgoasklucyl]

Nobunga, perhaps instead of replying to MPJH's personal insults and playing his game you could reply to BK or myself instead of beating around the bush and ignoring a plethora of viable statements.

I understand it would be a lot easier to ignore sensible statements and replies.. but all you do is make your defense look that much weaker.

No offense to you personally, but even I admitted a few posts back that proving Bush's racism isn't easy through statements he personally made. Big whoop.

Look at his policies and track records. While he never made a policy or (lack of) a decision directed at African Americans or other minorities, he expressed blatant classism. If you REALLY want me to get into statistics regarding said residential discrimination in relation to the race/ethnicities of the individuals who typically reside in these areas I would be more than happy to provide you with pages upon pages of them- I've spent the past four years of my life delved into research on such statistics.

Saying 'Bush is a racist because he said 'x'' is impossible.

Saying 'Bush isn't racist, he never did anything that adversely affected a minority' is similarly impossible.

In this country, classism is pretty much directly (and very strongly) correlated with racism.

[lgoasklucyl]

Bottom line, no other group of Americans (well, maybe Indians) would have been left without food and water and forced to wander a highway in the Louisiana summer heat like that. 5 fooking days! Bush showed his utter disdain for these people by his halfassed response, and my respect for nobunga's political savvy just dropped a good bit. This isn't about right and left, it's about common human decency.
Honibaz

I wouldn't give the US government so much leighway regarding Hispanic or Latino Americans either, if I were you

[GabonX]

Not to change the subject, but Gabby, can you please share with us how it feels to be repeatedly lambasted, trounced, and crushed into the ground by multiple debate opponents? I imagine it must suck!

By the way, you're wrong.

You don't need me to tell you about that Klobber
and only one of them (snorri) was actually debating.

My thoughts on the matter is that if you include an insult which is unrelated to a debate in the dialouge, the only possible reason for this is to discredit a person so in my eyes, Sultan is guilty of many ad-hominem attacks.

It seems that the general consesnsus is that this is not the case which is fine.

Regardless of whether or not the term ad-hominem is applicable here, the criticism of Sultan (that instead debating people on the merrits of their arguments he chooses to discredit them through insults) is still valid!

It's a gutter tactic and it reflects a weak position on the actual issues.

[GabonX]

I see Nobunga's still trying to play down Bush's role and blame it on local politicians. Another typical right wing pushthisbuttonwhenallelsefails - quick point a finger at a racist democrat (Byrd). Does Byrd's racism negate the racism of George Bush? Wtf?

Bottom line, no other group of Americans (well, maybe Indians) would have been left without food and water and forced to wander a highway in the Louisiana summer heat like that. 5 fooking days! Bush showed his utter disdain for these people by his halfassed response, and my respect for nobunga's political savvy just dropped a good bit. This isn't about right and left, it's about common human decency.


Honibaz

Bush's response to the Katrina debacle was in step with every other catastrophe of his administration (bad).

The man was generally incompetant, hence a poor response to this event, when coupled with a long history of other poor responses, is not indicative of racism.

We do however have strong evidence which indicates he was not racist in that he was chose to work with a number of African Americans and people of other races in his administration.

[mpjh]

Compare two responses, 911 and Katrina. One group victims got millions in cash. free psychiatric care, and almost hero status. The other is still living in temporary housing, while perfectly good low income housing is vacant. One group is largely middle class and white, one is largely black and poor. I look to results to determine racism. Our federal government headed by Bush was racist in how it acted.

[GabonX]

Compare two responses, 911 and Katrina. One group victims got millions in cash. free psychiatric care, and almost hero status. The other is still living in temporary housing, while perfectly good low income housing is vacant. One group is largely middle class and white, one is largely black and poor. I look to results to determine racism. Our federal government headed by Bush was racist in how it acted.

So I suppose the Democrat controlled Congress is racist as well.

There was a lot of money put towards the victims of Katrina as well as the 9/11 victims families. If you want to use this as evidence you need to find the figures which indicate exactly who got what, and whether it was the federal government or the state that gave it to them, otherwise there is no weight to this argument.

Also worth noting is that there were many more people in New Orleans than families that were affected by 9/11.

Just out of curisosity, if Bush was racist how do you explain his choice to work with African Americans, Latinos, etc. and how do you explain his friendly relationship with the current President?

[lgoasklucyl]

There was a lot of money put towards the victims of Katrina as well as the 9/11 victims families. If you want to use this as evidence you need to find the figures which indicate exactly who got what, and whether it was the federal government or the state that gave it to them, otherwise there is no weight to this argument.

-Have you read the book on Feinberg's policy? The ONLY reason the administration awarded the families such great sums was to avoid law suits with the airlines. Otherwise, they would have been left out in the cold like the Victims of the Oklahoma City Bombing were.

Just out of curisosity, if Bush was racist how do you explain his choice to work with African Americans, Latinos, etc. and how do you explain his friendly relationship with the current President?

-If you were the leader of a country who had gotten their through half-assed means and knew the greater percent of the country did NOT want you in office, do you think you would elect and entirely white cabinet?

Do you seriously think he elected/holds relationships with minority individuals through a lack of racism? No. He HAS to employ these individuals to save his own pathetic image.

It's not his cabinet choices that express his ideology, it's his action re. Katrina and AIDs funding.

Like Bush is in ANY position to start a negative relationship with our current president? He left him the biggest freaking mess Obama could have possibly asked for. Being a dick to him at that point would be superfluous.

[GabonX]

There was a lot of money put towards the victims of Katrina as well as the 9/11 victims families. If you want to use this as evidence you need to find the figures which indicate exactly who got what, and whether it was the federal government or the state that gave it to them, otherwise there is no weight to this argument.

-Have you read the book on Feinberg's policy? The ONLY reason the administration awarded the families such great sums was to avoid law suits with the airlines. Otherwise, they would have been left out in the cold like the Victims of the Oklahoma City Bombing were.
There you go. It was to avoid lawsuits, not a sign of racism.

Just out of curisosity, if Bush was racist how do you explain his choice to work with African Americans, Latinos, etc. and how do you explain his friendly relationship with the current President?

-If you were the leader of a country who had gotten their through half-assed means and knew the greater percent of the country did NOT want you in office, do you think you would elect and entirely white cabinet?
As evidenced by his record of political sensitivity?

He appointed these people because they worked with his father. His father was not racist and neither was he.
Do you seriously think he elected/holds relationships with minority individuals through a lack of racism? No. He HAS to employ these individuals to save his own pathetic image.

It's not his cabinet choices that express his ideology, it's his action re. Katrina and AIDs funding.
If he was really so worried about public opinion it's pretty dense to think that he would appoint African Americans to senior positions but would intentionally not respond to New Orleans. Your position is just not logical.

There's nothing to indicate that Bush was pandering other than your own bias towards the man. Also, what are you referring to when you talk about aids funding? Isn't it racist for you to associate aids with black people?

You've yet to explain his friendly relationship with Obama.

[StiffMittens]

There was a lot of money put towards the victims of Katrina as well as the 9/11 victims families. If you want to use this as evidence you need to find the figures which indicate exactly who got what, and whether it was the federal government or the state that gave it to them, otherwise there is no weight to this argument.

-Have you read the book on Feinberg's policy? The ONLY reason the administration awarded the families such great sums was to avoid law suits with the airlines. Otherwise, they would have been left out in the cold like the Victims of the Oklahoma City Bombing were.
There you go. It was to avoid lawsuits, not a sign of racism.

Just out of curisosity, if Bush was racist how do you explain his choice to work with African Americans, Latinos, etc. and how do you explain his friendly relationship with the current President?

-If you were the leader of a country who had gotten their through half-assed means and knew the greater percent of the country did NOT want you in office, do you think you would elect and entirely white cabinet?
As evidenced by his record of political sensitivity?

He appointed these people because they worked with his father. His father was not racist and neither was he.
Do you seriously think he elected/holds relationships with minority individuals through a lack of racism? No. He HAS to employ these individuals to save his own pathetic image.

It's not his cabinet choices that express his ideology, it's his action re. Katrina and AIDs funding.
If he was really so worried about public opinion it's pretty dense to think that he would appoint African Americans to senior positions but would intentionally not respond to New Orleans. Your position is just not logical.

There's nothing to indicate that Bush was pandering other than your own bias towards the man. Also, what are you referring to when you talk about aids funding? Isn't it racist for you to associate aids with black people?

You've yet to explain his friendly relationship with Obama.

I think these are the sorts of things lgoasklucyl is referring to:
http://www.bushwatch.com/condoms.htm
http://archive.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Bush%20Racism
http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-2001/UN%20challenges%20Bush%20on%20racism.htm
http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/index.php/2009/01/13/unabashed-racism-in-the-bush-doj-_civil-rights_-division/

On the other hand, there's this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/jensen10052005.html

[mpjh]

What

Compare two responses, 911 and Katrina. One group victims got millions in cash. free psychiatric care, and almost hero status. The other is still living in temporary housing, while perfectly good low income housing is vacant. One group is largely middle class and white, one is largely black and poor. I look to results to determine racism. Our federal government headed by Bush was racist in how it acted.

So I suppose the Democrat controlled Congress is racist as well.

What democrats who are racist -- Noooo -- Really. Let's see the party of the south, until the civil rights bill was passed. Bull Connor's party. The party that prevented the anti-lynching laws from ever being passed -- EVER. Oh, and we still have the Blue Dog Democrats in the party. So what, how does that relieve Bush of his racist actions?

[GabonX]

The democrats also host a sitting member of the Senate who is a (perhapse) former member of the KKK, one Robert Byrd.

There is no need to relieve Bush of "racist actions" as he committed no "racist actions." You are claiming that his "lack of action" was racist when it is actually in step with his general record of incompitance.

Depite there being nothing conclusive to indicate that the man was racist there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

[mpjh]

Incompetence is no cover for racism. Bush's administration did what it did not from incompetence, but from a total lack of empathy for citizens who are poor, working class, and particularly for those of color. There is no getting around the racist impact of his administration -- witness how people of color voted against his party in droves once given a real choice.