WWII:Poland [Quenched]

[AndyDufresne]

If you are keen on using something to denote your list, try bullets instead of dashes---it would most likely clear up the - +.


--Andy

[RjBeals]

what a beautiful map! The only thing that I don't like are the one way attack arrows with dotted lines. The black doesn't fit too well, and the whole style in general looks out of place. Is there anything you can do to fix those (maybe scrap the current arrows and try something else)?

[Incandenza]

Not to pile on the legend thing, but in the small map the "deployed" bit of the commander autodeploy instructions is minutely but noticeably overlapped by the legend embellishments.

[Teflon Kris]

The Legend

A number of very salient points raised which I agree could do with addressing:

• The PAF should be explained as "can attack all Commanders except Tadeusz Kutrzeba". Sorry, I should have thought of this point, now that recent versions of the map don't show which areas are actually Poland (oak picks up this point below - I have understood 'Poland' to be the area defined as Poland in earlier versions of the map).
  
  It is also worth maintaining consistency with either 'attack' and 'assault' (in case the odd player gets confused).
  
  And, for absolute clarity, it is worth changing the "-+" to just "+".
  
  You may also wish to address Incandenza's point above.

[oaktown]

Sorry it took me three days to realize this map had been stickied... review call-out sent!

Here are my questions marks...

On the planes and tanks, it seems funny that the legend shows:
-+1
-+3
Which is it, minus or plus?

Why is it that Edward can attack PC03, but not the bordering PC04? You may as well redraw the border to show PC03 next to Edward, because as it stands it's very confusing.

P.A.F. can attack commanders outside of Poland, but since I don't know the Polish borders very well i don't know which commanders those are. This should be noted somehow in the legend.

So I just looked at a Poland map, and most of this map looks to be Poland, which places most of the commanders within Poland. Since they are surrounded by impassables borders that can only be crossed from within, how can they ever be attacked?

Planes... are you saying that the only territories they can bombard are tanks, or that their only move is to bombard tanks? This is an important distinction.

Tanks can attack and conquer, yes? "Assault" could translate into bombard, since you use "attack" elsewhere in the legend.

September 1st 1939 needs a comma: September 1st, 1939. "Contingent" should not be capitalized.

In general the legend would be much nicer looking if you could work on how the text is arranged... many odds breaks and words crammed into corners. And some of your text hits the legend borders.

Visually the arrows don't do it for me... they look like they belong to another map, and don't hit the soft colors you are using.

[barterer2002]

Hey Sam it looks interesting here, a question arises though.

The PAF tert is going to be key since its the only way to take out enemy commanders. In many ways this fact alone makes it the most powerful tert on the map so I have a few questions about it.

1). Is a +5 bonus for holding a tert that is the most powerful wise? It seems to me to be overkill.
2). Are you giving an advantage to Fedor Von Bock and Vasily Chuikov on purpose since he can reach PAF in 2 terts
3). If PAF can attack Commanders out side of Poland what does that do with Edward Rydz Smigly? From a game play standpoint it makes sense for PAF to attack Edward but fro the description it doesn't attack Polish commanders and you probably don't want it attacking the other Polish commanders around.
4). would it make sense for PAF to have an autokill feature on it to take it back to neutral each turn?

On the "planes can only bombard tanks-does this apply to neighboring tanks only or can they bombard any tank or any with a certain area. I'm wondering because the planes are bunched around the edges but if they can't attack tanks, but merely bombard them they are not as useful since they can't really move armies in from the edges except by going through PC04. None of the other planes can get past the tank terts and as such are a bit less useful, particularly if they can't bombard more than adjacent terts.
I also wonder if there is a reason that you're allowing the PC04 armies to advance into the center and not other planes?

[samuelc812]

I'll get to the other questions in the morning. But really most of what has been asked has already been answered in the process of making this map back earlier in the thread, although i know you don't want to go reading 12 pages of discussion.

2). Are you giving an advantage to Fedor Von Bock and Vasily Chuikov on purpose since he can reach PAF in 2 terts

In the next update i intend to make it clearer what commanders that the P.A.F. can and cannot attack. If you look properly the P.A.F. can be accessed in 2 moves from any commander, that's right. i've had to explain that many times and i have a feeling i'm going to be doing it a few more times, but i guess it's all part of the process Tanks can range their attack up to 2 regions away, so no starting commander has the advantage that you speak of.

Thanks for the comments, i'll answer the rest in my morning.

--Sam

[porkenbeans]

Likey, likey
Super cool looking map. The only thing that I would look at fixing is the fuzziness of the planes, tanks and barbed wire.
Very nice job Sam.

[MrBenn]

Hmmm

The map looks good, but there are a couple of bits that feel a bit disjointed (most notably the arrows).

Despite being stamped for both graphics and gameplay I think there is a bit to do to bring this completely up to FF standard, including producing both the large and small versions.

I'm sure you'll get there in due course, as you have shown an excellent attitude during development so far

[whitestazn88]

hey there sam, i'm here for the pre-forge map review

first off, i must say that i'm impressed that you kept up with a map as well as the cc newsletter.

as for the map, the graphics look awesome, although i feel like the left side of the map could be a bit brighter, but if you keep it as is, its still fine.

in terms of gameplay, everything looks good, bonuses seem fairly balanced, although the +1 for only 1 tank seems high. furthermore, the bombarding airplanes confuse me a little bit. are the planes themselves territories? or are those territories only capable of bombarding tank territs? maybe something in the legend could clear it up

anyways good work. forge

[samuelc812]

oaktown

On the planes and tanks, it seems funny that the legend shows:
-+1
-+3
Which is it, minus or plus?

It is a plus, the - were bullet points, they will be gone in the next update

Why is it that Edward can attack PC03, but not the bordering PC04? You may as well redraw the border to show PC03 next to Edward, because as it stands it's very confusing.

One plane and one tank per commander is the gameplay, Pc03 cannot be attacked by territories within Poland so that is why it had to be the territ that Edward could attack.

P.A.F. can attack commanders outside of Poland, but since I don't know the Polish borders very well i don't know which commanders those are. This should be noted somehow in the legend.

Will be noted in the next update

So I just looked at a Poland map, and most of this map looks to be Poland, which places most of the commanders within Poland. Since they are surrounded by impassables borders that can only be crossed from within, how can they ever be attacked?

P.A.F. can attack commanders outside of Poland. You must have looked at a modern map of Poland, back in WWII the borders were very different therefore placing all commander starting positions outside of poland. I will make this more clear in the next update.

Planes... are you saying that the only territories they can bombard are tanks, or that their only move is to bombard tanks? This is an important distinction.

their only move is to bombard tanks

Tanks can attack and conquer, yes? "Assault" could translate into bombard, since you use "attack" elsewhere in the legend.

Yes it will be fixed in the next update.

September 1st 1939 needs a comma: September 1st, 1939. "Contingent" should not be capitalized.

Will be fixed.

In general the legend would be much nicer looking if you could work on how the text is arranged... many odds breaks and words crammed into corners. And some of your text hits the legend borders.

Next update.

Visually the arrows don't do it for me... they look like they belong to another map, and don't hit the soft colors you are using.

I hear ya WM has done some work with arrows for me.

Thanks for the comments.
Sam

[samuelc812]

Hope this is an improvement Had some help from WM on this one, special thanks to him for a few of the major changes most noticeably the new arrows which look a lot better IMO.

Version 13 Small

Click image to enlarge.

Version 13 Large

Click image to enlarge.

Pick away

[bryguy]

I have not viewed this map since it was in the drafting room, and I must say, it went from Very Good to Great!

Yet there are some things that bother me

1) It is hard to see the first letters of the other areas (Baltic Sea, Lithuania, Germany)

2) The barbed wire is blurred slightly it seems. It is not as noticeable on the small version, but on the large it is more noticeable.

[Teflon Kris]

Nice work Sam - the update has dealt with most of the points raised about the legend.

Are you sure you dont want the PAF attacking the territories it borders? The legend states that 2 commanders next door cant be attacked - in which case you would need one-way arrows for consistency.

On a minor note: Perhaps, to totally clarify the point about the planes only move being bombardment, it may be worth capitalising ONLY (as it is with the Waterloo map's legend)?

Thanks for addressing things so quickly, that stamp was starting to lose its credibility.

[MrBenn]

There's nothing on the map to indicate that the PAF is the Polish Air Force - you may wish to add it onto the legend somewhere as I only worked it out by reading the first post!

I really like the commander symbols, but part of me unsure about how well they work - particularly as they are 'truncated' to fit some of the territories... It would be interesting to see how a smaller style icon for them would work (similar to how you had back on v6). The other thing that bugs me with the commanders is that the army number is quite removed from the commander symbol, and my eyes aren;t immediately drawn to the fact that the two go together.

The tanks from either side face towards the middle, while the aeroplanes are all flying upwards. Would it be possible to rotate the planes so that they are facing the same way as the tanks?

On the legend, you could specifically mention that the PAF cannot assault the Polish commanders... you could either add the symbol to the legend, or ghost the flag into the background of the PAF territory?? The language of the instruction also needs to be clarified, and DJ Teflon make a good point about one-way being arrows added if necessary.

The arrow from Semyon Timoshenko to SC01 should be flipped so that it looks less like it's coming from Vasily Chukov.

Since bryguy mentioned the barbed-wire, I think it looks less like barbed-wire on the large than the small map

All in all though, you have a very good map here. Well done

[LED ZEPPELINER]

can you flip the arrow from mikhail Kovalev to SCo6. It bugs me

[mibi]

I wont comment on the gameplay but this map has a good an cohesive aesthetic. well done.

[spiesr]

Gameplay wise, is it really fair that Fredon von Bock is the only starting space without a tank? I know that he can still reach PAF in as many spaces as the others without it, but tanks give +1. So if on the first turn everyone goes and gets thier tank space whoever starts here is at a disadvantage?

[iancanton]

There's nothing on the map to indicate that the PAF is the Polish Air Force

why not call it the polish air force on the map itself? there's enough room even on the small map.

Gameplay wise, is it really fair that Fredon von Bock is the only starting space without a tank? I know that he can still reach PAF in as many spaces as the others without it, but tanks give +1. So if on the first turn everyone goes and gets thier tank space whoever starts here is at a disadvantage?

if we let gc10 start with only 1 neutral, so that von bock loses fewer armies in his first attack, then perhaps this will make up for the disadvantage. obviously, von bock needs to adopt a slightly different strategy from most of the others.

can we have an image in the opening post that shows starting neutrals, so that we don't have to dig to find the latest one?

ian.

[Teflon Kris]

Worth considering that gc10 has had the neutral reduced from 3 to 2 due to the tank situation.

Plus, it is also worth noting that Von Bock has quickest access to the PAF - if we make gc10 1 neutral then that is often going to be first turn access if desired.

From a 'big picture' point of view, maps with starting positions are generally much fairer in game-play to maps where players can drop bonuses, near-bonuses, clusters etc. I would suggest minor inequality between starts is acceptable.

Whether gc10 starts with 1 or 2, it is worth reviewing in Beta as a change can easily be made to starting neutral values without major disruption.

[LED ZEPPELINER]

Ok, i know this is just personal opion, and it is very nitpicky, but i thought that you should flip some of the arrows, just so it flows a little better. I have marked which ones i think should be flipped

[samuelc812]

Update

Version 14 Small

Click image to enlarge.

Version 14 Large

Click image to enlarge.

Version 14 Small-Neutrals

Click image to enlarge.

I have not viewed this map since it was in the drafting room, and I must say, it went from Very Good to Great!

Thanks

1) It is hard to see the first letters of the other areas (Baltic Sea, Lithuania, Germany)

2) The barbed wire is blurred slightly it seems. It is not as noticeable on the small version, but on the large it is more noticeable.

Fixed

Nice work Sam - the update has dealt with most of the points raised about the legend.

Are you sure you dont want the PAF attacking the territories it borders? The legend states that 2 commanders next door cant be attacked - in which case you would need one-way arrows for consistency.

On a minor note: Perhaps, to totally clarify the point about the planes only move being bombardment, it may be worth capitalising ONLY (as it is with the Waterloo map's legend)?

Added barbed wire and one-way arrows into the P.A.F. and capitalised ONLY in the legend.
Thanks

There's nothing on the map to indicate that the PAF is the Polish Air Force - you may wish to add it onto the legend somewhere as I only worked it out by reading the first post!

I really like the commander symbols, but part of me unsure about how well they work - particularly as they are 'truncated' to fit some of the territories... It would be interesting to see how a smaller style icon for them would work (similar to how you had back on v6). The other thing that bugs me with the commanders is that the army number is quite removed from the commander symbol, and my eyes aren;t immediately drawn to the fact that the two go together.

The tanks from either side face towards the middle, while the aeroplanes are all flying upwards. Would it be possible to rotate the planes so that they are facing the same way as the tanks?

On the legend, you could specifically mention that the PAF cannot assault the Polish commanders... you could either add the symbol to the legend, or ghost the flag into the background of the PAF territory?? The language of the instruction also needs to be clarified, and DJ Teflon make a good point about one-way being arrows added if necessary.

The arrow from Semyon Timoshenko to SC01 should be flipped so that it looks less like it's coming from Vasily Chukov.

Since bryguy mentioned the barbed-wire, I think it looks less like barbed-wire on the large than the small map

All in all though, you have a very good map here. Well done

Thanks MrBenn
- Added Polish Air Force to the Legend
- I think the commander symbols are fine the way they are, they were once smaller icons and it was thought that the way they are now would be better so i'd like it to stay that way. As for the Army Numbers for the Commanders, please suggest a way to overcome this otherwise they will remain as they are.
- Added the specific Polish commanders that the P.A.F. cannot assault.
- Flipped the arrow, and turned the planes to face the centre
- Tried my best to fix the blurryness of the barbed wire, can't do much better than that.

can you flip the arrow from mikhail Kovalev to SCo6. It bugs me

If i do this it will look like the arrow goes into the border, i want the arrows to flow into the centre of the territory and i think all of them do that nicely.

I wont comment on the gameplay but this map has a good an cohesive aesthetic. well done.

Thanks mibi

Gameplay wise, is it really fair that Fredon von Bock is the only starting space without a tank? I know that he can still reach PAF in as many spaces as the others without it, but tanks give +1. So if on the first turn everyone goes and gets thier tank space whoever starts here is at a disadvantage?

When we took Fedor von Bock's territory away i don't think we realised a +1 bonus was being taken away. Thanks for that nice catch. I've added the tank bck in and have given Fedor's starting territ back up to 4 neutrals. Instead of taking away his tank to stop his advantage. I have added more barbed wire which now makes it an even field i'm fairly sure.

can we have an image in the opening post that shows starting neutrals, so that we don't have to dig to find the latest one?

ian.

Sure

Ok, i know this is just personal opion, and it is very nitpicky, but i thought that you should flip some of the arrows, just so it flows a little better.

I actually think it flows fine as is and would like to leave arrows as they are with the exception of timoshenko>SC01 arrow which i flipped to avoid confusion.

[gimil]

Hi sam,

I only have one major issue. Everything else I see is nitpicking. Before I give you those nit picks though I will concentrate on the major issue I see.

I believe (in my opinion of course) that the legends table and surrounding border needs to be more refined. The red/gold idea has potential but ultimatly needs more work. I am not really sure as yet how to suggest addressing this so leave it with me. I just wanted to put the concern out there thou.

Cheers,
gimil

[oaktown]

I recognize that the map doesn't need to be perfectly balanced at each start, but given just how powerful the tanks are (+1 for each, with an extra army for holding three), and how key the additional commanders will be (+3 each) I'm concerned about unintended advantages going to some players, especially to those who take their turns early. If Gerd goes before Johannes, Johannes is in deep shit: Gerd takes a tank, Johannes takes a tank, Gerd takes Johannes' tank since they border and forts his bonus of three there, Johannes is quickly trapped in his start territory and can't get out save for the plane, which is a dead end. Same goes for any two commanders who have adjoining first tanks - think I'd like to start in Fedor or Ferdinand who won't be molested by another player to start the game.

Johannes seems like a particularly rough start, since he is a territory farther away than everyone else from that all important second commander, and he has to go through another player to get it. You start in Johannes and your only hope is that everybody else leaves you alone and beats each other up.

The longer I look the more I see some of the logic behind the start pairings. The three players who will have quick access to Wladyslov each do not have access to a second tank, putting them on equal footing. The difference maker up there may be that Fedor doesn't have an unfriendly neighbor.

In the south west Edward has an uncontested second tank, Semyon does not. Advantage Edward (especially if the Edward player gets to go before Semyon).

I think a page may need to be taken from gimil's Feudal map - the conquest style map works because everybody is able to at least get a couple of turns in to at least try and set up a strategy. The +3 auto bonus for the starting position and the fact that you can't immediately get at the starts will allow even the unluckiest player to stick around for a few rounds, but it could be a really frustrating few rounds. If you're the guy who gets trapped, as soon as somebody holds the air force for a turn and colelcts the +5 you're history.

Visually i think that the improved legend does wonders for the overall image - it's finally on par with the graphics on the rest of the map.

[samuelc812]

So perhaps scrapping the +1 for each tank held would be best? and just keep the +4 for 3?