Iran Elections

[thegreekdog]

Nobunaga, what would you have preferred the president do? The only realistic option I could see is that he makes some rhetoric-filled speech like the French president made. Then he looks like a jackass.

[Nobunaga]

Nobunaga, what would you have preferred the president do? The only realistic option I could see is that he makes some rhetoric-filled speech like the French president made. Then he looks like a jackass.

... Like it or not, the United States has been the "top dog" on this planet for quite some time, our President seen as the "Leader of the Free World". For a man in such a position to dodge confrontation on this demonstrates an absurd degree of irresponsibilty.

... The President must denounce the fraud as well as the violence (how many are dead now?) and look to somehow embrace the Iranian people, not the despots in power in Iran and the surrounding nations. Hell, Obama could win a groundswell of support in Iran for the Democratic cause if he did this right and took a stand.

... The repurcussions are rather irrelevant. Iran still pursues nukes, regardless of our efforts. Embargoes mean nothing so long as Iran has Russian and Chinese support.

... Obama is too concerned with America's image (and certainly his own) to do what he must. During the campaign he mocked those who belittled his rhetoric as "just words." Well, what he's offered up so far is less than just words. He's put a fresh coat of whitewash on Iran's sham "democracy." I'm not saying we should send in troops. I'm saying we send a message.

... To the point, Obama should quote a much better man than himself and speak the words loudly:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
...

[thegreekdog]

Okay, all your points are well-taken, and I sort of agree with them. Except that unless President Obama is ready to go to war with Iran, it's all empty rhetoric. Therefore, it's not really going to help anything. Assuming the president says all the "right" things, if the Iranian populace rises up and revolts (or something of that nature), are they doing so because they think the US is going to militarily assist? I think the choices are: (1) Wait and see (what the president is currently doing), (2) Spout off some rhetoric and not do anything militarily (the real coward's way out in my opinion), or (3) Spout off some rhetoric and assist militarily (which the American populace would not support). So, of all those choices, #1 seems the best option.

[Snorri1234]

... Obama is too concerned with America's image (and certainly his own) to do what he must. During the campaign he mocked those who belittled his rhetoric as "just words." Well, what he's offered up so far is less than just words. He's put a fresh coat of whitewash on Iran's sham "democracy." I'm not saying we should send in troops. I'm saying we send a message.

Yeah dude the Iranians are totally gonna love it if Obama speaks about this. Ahmadinejad will totally not use it as an excuse to point at the US as the bad guy who wants to dictate how other countries work.


I think you forgot that Iran doesn't like you. A lot of the protesters don't like you and the still relatively large amount of supporters of the current regime really don't like you. Obama knows that him saying anything condemning about it will only be bad for Iran. He is not concerned with his image, he's concerned for the protesters in Iran.

At the moment the only way to solve it is by letting the people and the journalists handle it.

[Nobunaga]

Okay, all your points are well-taken, and I sort of agree with them. Except that unless President Obama is ready to go to war with Iran, it's all empty rhetoric. Therefore, it's not really going to help anything. Assuming the president says all the "right" things, if the Iranian populace rises up and revolts (or something of that nature), are they doing so because they think the US is going to militarily assist? I think the choices are: (1) Wait and see (what the president is currently doing), (2) Spout off some rhetoric and not do anything militarily (the real coward's way out in my opinion), or (3) Spout off some rhetoric and assist militarily (which the American populace would not support). So, of all those choices, #1 seems the best option.

... I understand your argument, but unfortunately the rest of the world is looking at us, waiting to see what we will do, if anything. If we do not stand for democracy why would any other nation? Sure, I know it's rhetorical, but it is not, imho, meaningless.

... It was an opportunity for a real Reaganesque, or Kennedy-like moment... and he dropped the ball completely.

...

[Night Strike]

I'll grant the administration some leeway concerning whether or not the electron was a fraud. Pushing for international election observers should be the strongest comments they give. That being said, they should be very forceful in denouncing the governmental violence and media blackout that has happened. That can safely be denounced without "meddling" in their elections.

[joecoolfrog]

Okay, all your points are well-taken, and I sort of agree with them. Except that unless President Obama is ready to go to war with Iran, it's all empty rhetoric. Therefore, it's not really going to help anything. Assuming the president says all the "right" things, if the Iranian populace rises up and revolts (or something of that nature), are they doing so because they think the US is going to militarily assist? I think the choices are: (1) Wait and see (what the president is currently doing), (2) Spout off some rhetoric and not do anything militarily (the real coward's way out in my opinion), or (3) Spout off some rhetoric and assist militarily (which the American populace would not support). So, of all those choices, #1 seems the best option.

... I understand your argument, but unfortunately the rest of the world is looking at us, waiting to see what we will do, if anything. If we do not stand for democracy why would any other nation? Sure, I know it's rhetorical, but it is not, imho, meaningless.

... It was an opportunity for a real Reaganesque, or Kennedy-like moment... and he dropped the ball completely.

...

The rest of the World was simply hoping that the USA would be diplomatic and pragmatic as opposed to stirring up trouble with empty gung ho rhetoric. Why do you feel the need to try to demonstrate how big and powerfull the USA is, a truly great nation,or president, does not need to.

[Nobunaga]

Okay, all your points are well-taken, and I sort of agree with them. Except that unless President Obama is ready to go to war with Iran, it's all empty rhetoric. Therefore, it's not really going to help anything. Assuming the president says all the "right" things, if the Iranian populace rises up and revolts (or something of that nature), are they doing so because they think the US is going to militarily assist? I think the choices are: (1) Wait and see (what the president is currently doing), (2) Spout off some rhetoric and not do anything militarily (the real coward's way out in my opinion), or (3) Spout off some rhetoric and assist militarily (which the American populace would not support). So, of all those choices, #1 seems the best option.

... I understand your argument, but unfortunately the rest of the world is looking at us, waiting to see what we will do, if anything. If we do not stand for democracy why would any other nation? Sure, I know it's rhetorical, but it is not, imho, meaningless.

... It was an opportunity for a real Reaganesque, or Kennedy-like moment... and he dropped the ball completely.

...

The rest of the World was simply hoping that the USA would be diplomatic and pragmatic as opposed to stirring up trouble with empty gung ho rhetoric. Why do you feel the need to try to demonstrate how big and powerfull the USA is, a truly great nation,or president, does not need to.

... We are in the business of assisting nations struggling to gain or preserve their own liberties. You of all people should understand this. We are not New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, the UK or Spain. We do not sit on the sidelines to watch others act, placing bets and hoping to win by virtue of our chosen alliances.

... Words are powerful. Your Churchill uttered quite a few, moving the masses to courage and strength. Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy, (arguably) Reagan on this side of the Atlantic have moved many as well, at home and abroad, moved them to courage, to action and to strength.

... Don't send in the tanks, but send a message. Send it to a nation shooting its own citizens in the street for fear of true democracy. Send it to the Mullahs who cheer as girls are stoned to death for the sin of being raped. Send it to the man who seeks nothing less than the annihilation of Israel. yada yada yada ... you get my point even if you disagree.

... We are meant to act, not to watch, even if that action entails nothing more than taking a stand.

...

[Snorri1234]

... We are in the business of assisting nations struggling to gain or preserve their own liberties. You of all people should understand this. We are not New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, the UK or Spain. We do not sit on the sidelines to watch others act, placing bets and hoping to win by virtue of our chosen alliances.

... Words are powerful. Your Churchill uttered quite a few, moving the masses to courage and strength. Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy, (arguably) Reagan on this side of the Atlantic have moved many as well, at home and abroad, moved them to courage, to action and to strength.

... Don't send in the tanks, but send a message. Send it to a nation shooting its own citizens in the street for fear of true democracy. Send it to the Mullahs who cheer as girls are stoned to death for the sin of being raped. Send it to the man who seeks nothing less than the annihilation of Israel. yada yada yada ... you get my point even if you disagree.

... We are meant to act, not to watch, even if that action is nothing more than taking a stand.

...

Nice words but you're still forgetting that THEY HATE YOU! Telling them that what they're doing is wrong won't help in any way. In fact, it will probably damage the struggle of the protestors because A.) The protesters don't like you and B.) The iranian president will get mad at the US and instead of a focus being put on the election the focus is now on the fact that the USA can't keep his fucking mouth shut and tell others what to do.

[Nobunaga]

... We are in the business of assisting nations struggling to gain or preserve their own liberties. You of all people should understand this. We are not New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, the UK or Spain. We do not sit on the sidelines to watch others act, placing bets and hoping to win by virtue of our chosen alliances.

... Words are powerful. Your Churchill uttered quite a few, moving the masses to courage and strength. Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy, (arguably) Reagan on this side of the Atlantic have moved many as well, at home and abroad, moved them to courage, to action and to strength.

... Don't send in the tanks, but send a message. Send it to a nation shooting its own citizens in the street for fear of true democracy. Send it to the Mullahs who cheer as girls are stoned to death for the sin of being raped. Send it to the man who seeks nothing less than the annihilation of Israel. yada yada yada ... you get my point even if you disagree.

... We are meant to act, not to watch, even if that action is nothing more than taking a stand.

...

Nice words but you're still forgetting that THEY HATE YOU! Telling them that what they're doing is wrong won't help in any way. In fact, it will probably damage the struggle of the protestors because A.) The protesters don't like you and B.) The iranian president will get mad at the US and instead of a focus being put on the election the focus is now on the fact that the USA can't keep his fucking mouth shut and tell others what to do.

... The Iranian people do not, generally speaking, hate us. I have known Iranians, and though there are the usual issues, they certainly did not hate us.

...

[thegreekdog]

I wonder if the women who may get stoned to death like us.

[Snorri1234]

... The Iranian people do not, generally speaking, hate us. I have known Iranians, and though there are the usual issues, they certainly did not hate us.

...

Hell, even if they didn't hate you but just strongly disliked you it would still be bad to say something. You can't ignore that when the president of the USA says something it's really the USA as an entity speaking. And it's the USA of Waging War Against Muslims And Loving The Jews So Much, not the USA of Democracy.

That's why european political leaders can express their criticism about this, because they're not the opressing force.


Seriously though, Iran really dislikes you. Even though the election-results were tampered with, Ahmadinejad still has quite a lot of support. Especially from the real leaders.

[Night Strike]

The Iranian soccer team came out in today's friendly game wearing arm bands that supported the opposition movement. And the game was already being shown on their national television. Quite a brave statement by those players, and an embarrassment for the government.

[comic boy]

The Iranian soccer team came out in today's friendly game wearing arm bands that supported the opposition movement. And the game was already being shown on their national television. Quite a brave statement by those players, and an embarrassment for the government.

Yes that is very brave indeed,I salute their courage

[Nobunaga]

... Student (?) shot to death on video.

... Lovely.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

[HapSmo19]

He shoulda hadda gun.

[Timminz]

He shoulda hadda gun.

I like parody.

[spurgistan]

The Iranian soccer team came out in today's friendly game wearing arm bands that supported the opposition movement. And the game was already being shown on their national television. Quite a brave statement by those players, and an embarrassment for the government.

To be fair, Mousavvi's supporters tend to come from the new urban middle class, which would probably include professional athletes. Still, very brave considering what's going on back home. I applaud them for that, and pray nothing bad happens to them.

Anyways, you can (predictably) put me down as another who thinks that the absolute worst thing for Obama to do know would be to publicly side with the opposition. Hell, it may not even be the best as a pure US Foreign Policy play; looking at Mousavvi's past, his hands are not clean, who knows what he would do as President. But yes, in a region where distrust of the USA runs deep (And in a country where in at least one case Team America has come down against the decidedly democratic side) the worst thing we could do would be to publicly endorse one side. Do all Iranians hate America? Of course not. Iranian-Americans obviously aren't. But it gives the theocracy the boogeyman they need to survive.

[jonesthecurl]

You know, I really don't think the Iranian people are going to just let this one go.
I don't know what comes next, but Iran will change.

[spurgistan]

I guess the question is, is this Tiannamen Square, 20 years later and a few countries to the west? Not saying the situations are at all alike, but they're not separate, either.

[jonesthecurl]

I guess the question is, is this Tiannamen Square, 20 years later and a few countries to the west? Not saying the situations are at all alike, but they're not separate, either.

Closer, I think, to the beginning of the English Civil War.

[Pedronicus]

Neda Agha-Soltani (Warning - Graphic Images of Death)

Only 26 years old.

[karelpietertje]

a rather strange pattern emerged.

why is this a strange pattern though? to me it seems to be exactly what it would be if a majority of the population would support ahmedinejad...

[thegreekdog]

He shoulda hadda gun.

I like parody.

Or parity?

[pmchugh]

a rather strange pattern emerged.

why is this a strange pattern though? to me it seems to be exactly what it would be if a majority of the population would support ahmedinejad...

It's very strange that the government won by the same margain in every area, in some places there is a strong ethnic supprot for the ahmedinejad yet he won by the same margain here as he did in places where he had a significant ethnic disadvantage.