ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Nobunaga]

... You little island dwellers are too prideful.

...

[PopeBenXVI]

Your wasting your time No......You can cite and paraphrase all the sections you want from the bill itself and they will support it because Obama says its all reform. He can lie by saying you can keep your doctor, the finance dept says it's budget neutral, money will fall from the sky, whatever. They can go to a number of places to find a summary of the crap in the bill outlining and suggesting certain questionable things but they will go to the government website for their propaganda. The same government website that is trying to push it through cuz there is NO TIME to read it and if we don't do it this month the sky will fall. DO IT NOW like the stimulus that has not created anything but waste and more Gov jobs and union bailouts. What a joke.

Obama was right yesterday when he messed up and said "UPS & FedX are fine - It's the post office that has the problem." Which is Govt run again? There is a difference in not making a profit and being in a big hole 2-4 billion each year.

I hope we can have real healthcare reform in lowering cost. Lets start by limiting what Lawyers can sue doctors for so the unnecessary tests are lessened in fear of lawsuits. Then lets make the illegals pay something when they come in.

This President is an utter failure in his first year and if you don't see it I am not going to try to convince you anymore. The American people are telling them they don't want THIS Bill....not what Gov keeps saying which is that we don't want reform. People are not saying they don't want reform they don't want this "remaking" in the name of reform.

[Phatscotty]

never let a phony crisis go to waste

[PLAYER57832]

Out of curiosity, what lies, specifically, are you referring to? I find it difficult to believe that you have had enough exposure to hold an informed opinion regarding the things of which you speak. It is impossible for you to hold a rational opinion on Rush Limbaugh for example, without having ever listened to his show. Sadly, I suspect you form your opinions based on filtered sources, not unlike most people within the United States.

Obviously Universal Health Care would be a great thing, but such a thing can not be achieved without paying a price. Many of us believe that the price being asked (for some it is the money, for others the invasion of privacy, and most importantly to me the infringement on personal liberty) is not worth it. In addition, the idea that it is, or should be the role of government to care for all citizens is contested in and of itself.

I'm curious, what underlying principle causes you to think that this is the case?

"Infringement on personal liberty" is one lie I can think of. "Invasion of privacy" is another. Under this plan, no one will be forced into a specific type of healthcare, if he or she can afford something else. For me, who has no healthcare through work, I can hardly consider it an invasion of my privacy for the government to realize that even those people who no longer benefit from employer-provided health care, might require a doctor's care. How does it infringe my personal liberty to have some sort of insurance against injury or illness? How does it infringe YOUR personal liberty to have medicaid/medicare type plans extended?

The only leftover is "money". Will it cost more in the long run, or will it cost less? Depending on which side of the issue you favor, you may say yes or you may say no, but the point is, that's debatable. Some economists, even economists who are not pro-Democrat, indicate that our current healthcare system requires Americans to pay too much for far too little. The weblinks I provided below show how in international ratings, we spend the most of our gross national product for healthcare, by dollars AND by percentage; to achieve only the 37th greatest benefit, less than some third world countries.

Given that gross overexpenditure for little return, "No change" is foolish.

Capitalism is based on competition. Currently, the insurance companies band together to establish their own rates. It's a grand old "buddy-buddy" system that, left uncheck as it has been, has resulted in Americans paying far too much and getting far too little in exchange, with quite a chunk of our population getting nothing at all in exchange. In that perspective, Obama's plan isn't "socialist" it's government-aided capitalism; the government will step in to provide insurance companies some competition so that they will be required, by the laws of supply and demand that Capitalism works with, to lower their rates in order to keep clients.

There is even an indirect precedence. Launching of satellites is now a combination of government and private business. Government influence keeps competition honestly working to reduce costs, while the private sector still profits.

In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.

However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.

Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.

Of course, every nurse knows everyone's complete medical history just about in this town, every drop out that goes to work for bill collectors is given free access to both your records AND your phone numbers, no matter how many times you prove that THEY goofed... (I am definitely not talking hypothetical here).

sorry, but this is just a mute point unless you happen to be independently wealthy. If you are, you don't need health reform .. you don't need much of anything.

[stahrgazer]

In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.

However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.

Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.

Ah, yes; I also had difficulty obtaining medical records for use in a lawsuit against the person who hit my vehicle; it got straightened out, but they still would not release my records to me, only to my attorney (go figure!)

However, as to the "electronic records," a few months back, on some TV ad, GE was advertising their innovative electronic program for health recordkeeping.

The computer age is coming, with or without every American citizen having healthcare coverage.

Personally, I'd rather have healthcare so I have some records, even if they are going to be on computers. Plus.. if they're on computers, it won't cost me a dollar a page to get them to my attorney or next care provider.

Plus.. the only reason to hide my records from my next provider is because pre-existing conditions are so often excluded with current insurance providers. Obama's plan eliminates exclusions for pre-existing conditions; therefore, it only makes sense that my healthcare providers are able to be aware of my full medical history.

[PLAYER57832]

In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.

However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.

Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.

Ah, yes; I also had difficulty obtaining medical records for use in a lawsuit against the person who hit my vehicle; it got straightened out, but they still would not release my records to me, only to my attorney (go figure!)

However, as to the "electronic records," a few months back, on some TV ad, GE was advertising their innovative electronic program for health recordkeeping.

The computer age is coming, with or without every American citizen having healthcare coverage.

Personally, I'd rather have healthcare so I have some records, even if they are going to be on computers. Plus.. if they're on computers, it won't cost me a dollar a page to get them to my attorney or next care provider.

One added part, a biggie is that by allowing collection of all this data in one area, it will be far easier to track wich treatments are effective under which circumstances. Right now, all that sort of information is collected seperately by each insurer and is "proprietary".

[Phatscotty]

In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.

However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.

Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.

Ah, yes; I also had difficulty obtaining medical records for use in a lawsuit against the person who hit my vehicle; it got straightened out, but they still would not release my records to me, only to my attorney (go figure!)

However, as to the "electronic records," a few months back, on some TV ad, GE was advertising their innovative electronic program for health recordkeeping.

The computer age is coming, with or without every American citizen having healthcare coverage.

Personally, I'd rather have healthcare so I have some records, even if they are going to be on computers. Plus.. if they're on computers, it won't cost me a dollar a page to get them to my attorney or next care provider.

One added part, a biggie is that by allowing collection of all this data in one area, it will be far easier to track wich treatments are effective under which circumstances. Right now, all that sort of information is collected seperately by each insurer and is "proprietary".

the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap

[PLAYER57832]

the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap

Oh, gee, yep... we live in a war torn country with no schools, no water, , only dirt tracks for roads, no mail service, no parks or forest, no ...


hmmm, I guess that "failure rate" is not quite 100%.

[GabonX]

Well what about Governments in general then, how is the record in that regard?

It comes down to whether or not you think you are better off caring for yourself, or having someone else care for you...

[Phatscotty]

the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap

Oh, gee, yep... we live in a war torn country with no schools, no water, , only dirt tracks for roads, no mail service, no parks or forest, no ...


hmmm, I guess that "failure rate" is not quite 100%.

wtd do you live? i have to wait in traffic every single F'ing day cuz there is road work everywhere, and the water smells funny, and my post office closed. Welcome to reality. read a fucking newspaper dude

[Phatscotty]

straight up player, stay in the kindergarten league. when a retarded starts lipping off, i might look at him for a second to make sure hes retarded, and then leave. he can hassle me verbally all the way down the street. i dont fight retards

[PLAYER57832]

Well what about Governments in general then, how is the record in that regard?

It comes down to whether or not you think you are better off caring for yourself, or having someone else care for you...

No, because in health care people don't care for themselves. You rely on doctors and other medical practitioners and, unless you are independently wealthy, insurance companies.

[PLAYER57832]

straight up player, stay in the kindergarten league.

I guess I must be, else I could not possibly be debating you.

[PLAYER57832]

the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap

Oh, gee, yep... we live in a war torn country with no schools, no water, , only dirt tracks for roads, no mail service, no parks or forest, no ...


hmmm, I guess that "failure rate" is not quite 100%.

wtd do you live? i have to wait in traffic every single F'ing day cuz there is road work everywhere, and the water smells funny, and my post office closed. Welcome to reality. read a fucking newspaper dude

Go to Afghanistan, or Ghana, or even Mexico, the Hondurus... then you can complain.

No one said perfection. You said 100% failure. You have roads, you can get mail out. It may not work as well as you like, but it works.

And, since flame wars is gone, skip the profanity.

[stahrgazer]

One added part, a biggie is that by allowing collection of all this data in one area, it will be far easier to track wich treatments are effective under which circumstances. Right now, all that sort of information is collected seperately by each insurer and is "proprietary".

True. Plus... I don't consider my "insurer" - well, the insurer when I had insurance - having my data, to be beneficial, because what the heck does an insurance clerk know about how to treat my ailments? The "proprietary" nature of information does mean they have control over identifying the most effective treatments, moreso than even doctors, because it's harder for physicians or researchers to collect that data (they have to run expensive studies that still miss out on large segments of the population because they are size/money limited) that having it established in one still private place, would allow.

[heavycola]

In sum, instead of any relevant discussion of these issues, opponents to the healthcare bill are likened to crazy people, hatemongers, fearmongers, or idiots.

The only people I mentioned fall into at least your last three catgeories. Your point is...

While this is politically expedient, it doesn't bode well for your seemingly holier-than-though response to Gabon, which can be seen as rather hypocritical.

'Holier-than-thou'? Don't try to patronise me, fella. I merely pointed out that overall the health system in the UK works much better than the US version. That is a fact. I wasn't wading into your political debate; I was saying that when the fearmongering crazies start lying about an institution with which Brits are all incredibly familiar (the NHS, see?), we can then see them for what they are without needing to give them any 'well, maybe that's how they do it over there' benefit of the doubt. That was all.


Neo! How are you man?

[luns101]

The NHS does not adequately treat their own citizens when it comes to mental health...I have proof

Is this really the path we want to go down, America?

[Jolly Roger]

The NHS does not adequately treat their own citizens when it comes to mental health...I have proof

Is this really the path we want to go down, America?

Looks like an excellent path to me. I'd love some of whatever they've been prescribed, especially that guy in the back - he's clearly having the night of his life.

[stahrgazer]

The NHS does not adequately treat their own citizens when it comes to mental health...I have proof

Is this really the path we want to go down, America?

Um.. yeah. When I had my concussion, which I had when I had FANTASTIC insurance here in America, I didn't get "inadequately treated" - I didn't get treated at all. So yeah, I'd prefer the path of inadequate on mental health but more than adequate in other aspects. Especially now that I have no insurance.

[Timminz]

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57C40C20090814]"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.

"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]

edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?

[Frigidus]

Link"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.

"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]

edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?

You're just missing the [/url] and whatever you want the hyperlink to say. Alternatively you can just skip the url bit altogether. http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 0C20090814

[Neoteny]

Link"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.

"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]

edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?

You're just missing the [/url] and whatever you want the hyperlink to say. Alternatively you can just skip the url bit altogether. http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 0C20090814

No, see, he has the [/url] bit at the end. I wonder if there is a limit to how long url text can be.

[Frigidus]

"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.

"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.

edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?

You're just missing the [/url] and whatever you want the hyperlink to say. Alternatively you can just skip the url bit altogether. http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 0C20090814

No, see, he has the [/url] bit at the end. I wonder if there is a limit to how long url text can be.

OK, I see it now. It might be the empty line in the quote, as I was able to link the first paragraph.

[Titanic]

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57C40C20090814]"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.

"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]

edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?

Not sure. Is BBCode enabled in your settings?

[MeDeFe]

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57C40C20090814]"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.

"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]

edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?

If you have line breaks like

this or like
this the link will not work. It has to be a single paragraph.


All the other answers are wrong, I've checked them.