Is Communism actually that bad?

[Simon Viavant]

I've heard all the horror stories, but I can't help but wonder if those are just propaganda from the American side, and that it just seems bad because I'm born here. It actually sounds like it could have significant economic benefits along with the disadvantages.
What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[theusual1]

Compare Russia with America. I'm not very knowledgable on the matter but it seems to me that communism doesn't work in large countries as it is impossible to co-ordinate and it is all to easy for corrupt people to take power. I suppose in small communities it would work although it is too idealistic to work in a highly populated country.

[Supermarioluigi]

it is all to easy for corrupt people to take power.

This is pretty much it.

In theory, it should work, but the government always ends up corrupt.

[jsholty4690]

As the others have already stated, it would be the greatest form of government if it worked in real life. But, it doesn't becuase of greed and laziness (why should I work harder than my neighbor when we are being paid the same amount or why should I spend eight years in school to become a doctor when I can become a mechanic with far less effort and still be paid the same). As long as those two things still exist in the world Communism will always fail.

[hecter]

Communism is a difficult thing. I'll start off by saying that there has never been, and it's unlikely that there ever will be, a true communist state. It basically goes like this:
Smart people organize all the poor people
Kill or exile all the rich people
Smart people settle things down
All private property is abolished
Everything is owned by the community
Everybody is happy and healthy, everything is done for the good of the community, because what's good for the community is good for you
Smart people shut down the little mini-government they had going to get things the way things were
Happy little Anarchy
So no, I wouldn't say that it's bad in theory, but in practice it's never been good.

[Simon Viavant]

I see greed is always a temptation there, but I don't see how that's any different than capitalism. I see those disadvantages, but on the other hand, there are no longer class differences and the rich don't have power as they do in America. The Soviet Union didn't fail because of it's economy, it split apart because people wanted freedom from it's tyrannical government and countries split off. Communism could be feasible with a democratic government and we wouldn't have many problems that america has today. If you look at industry, the soviet union actually did very well. They succeeded in industrializing the entire soviet union, which isn't a mean feat. Sure, it came at a cost to some people, but overall it benefited everyone in the long run.

[Phatscotty]

I've heard all the horror stories, but I can't help but wonder if those are just propaganda from the American side, and that it just seems bad because I'm born here. It actually sounds like it could have significant economic benefits along with the disadvantages.
What are everyone's thoughts on this?

well, how do you like having your own thoughts? let's start there. If we had communism now, this subject would be off the table(and probably the interent altogether). did i just kill the thread?

[jsholty4690]

I see greed is always a temptation there, but I don't see how that's any different than capitalism. I see those disadvantages, but on the other hand, there are no longer class differences and the rich don't have power as they do in America. The Soviet Union didn't fail because of it's economy, it split apart because people wanted freedom from it's tyrannical government and countries split off. Communism could be feasible with a democratic government and we wouldn't have many problems that america has today. If you look at industry, the soviet union actually did very well. They succeeded in industrializing the entire soviet union, which isn't a mean feat. Sure, it came at a cost to some people, but overall it benefited everyone in the long run.

Your right on a couple of things, the USSR did industrilize pretty quickly, but its economy began to lag behind the West starting at the end of the 1950s. The Soviet's industry began to crumble from within due to lack of competition (industries never need to improve themselves because they were supported by the government and their was no one else to compete with). By the time Gorbechev came to power the USSR was on the verge of collapse.

My professor told me a story when she was in Moscow before the collapse. She was at a mall that was empty (because there wasn't enough consumer products to go around). At one point some guys rolled in some big crates and where they stopped a long line formed. My professor asked what they were doing because no one knew what was in the crates. Someone responded, "It doesn't matter, if we need it we'll get, if we don't need it we'll sell it to someone else."

The main problem with USSR and the former bloc states was that they ran on a Command Economy (the government told the companys what to produce), which is good when you are developing your economy, but not when your are an industrialized country like the Former East Bloc States were.

[SultanOfSurreal]

I've heard all the horror stories, but I can't help but wonder if those are just propaganda from the American side, and that it just seems bad because I'm born here. It actually sounds like it could have significant economic benefits along with the disadvantages.
What are everyone's thoughts on this?

well, how do you like having your own thoughts? let's start there. If we had communism now, this subject would be off the table(and probably the interent altogether). did i just kill the thread?

you're so fucking stupid, jesus christ

look, the communist manifesto, as dense as it is and as cliche as it's become, is a really good treatise on what communism is and what its implications are, and the weaknesses of the capitalist system. it's indisputably one of the most important books ever written and you should read it if you haven't. perhaps if more people did that we could have a mature discussion about socialism and communism in this country instead of "BUT THEY WANTS TO TAKE ARE FREEEEEDOM ;___;"

[PLAYER57832]

I see greed is always a temptation there, but I don't see how that's any different than capitalism. I see those disadvantages, but on the other hand, there are no longer class differences and the rich don't have power as they do in America. The Soviet Union didn't fail because of it's economy, it split apart because people wanted freedom from it's tyrannical government and countries split off. Communism could be feasible with a democratic government and we wouldn't have many problems that america has today. If you look at industry, the soviet union actually did very well. They succeeded in industrializing the entire soviet union, which isn't a mean feat. Sure, it came at a cost to some people, but overall it benefited everyone in the long run.

You have a point. The truth is that no system in its absolute can work as well as combinations. We are largely capitalistic and democratic, but we have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Welfare, a federal road system, federal parks, forests and range lands. Those are essentially socialistic. We have a minimum wage, which is sort of communistic. We also have an army, have had a draft , have mandated overtime and worker safety rules, as well as environmental rules that one could say are totalitarian. We allow children to inheret their parent's wealth, which is sort of reminscent of monarchies.

Tyranny and communism are tied together because they have largely been implemented in draconian ways in draconiam times. Many people in China were literally starving, had experienced centuries of suppression prior. This was true in Russia, also. When faced with starvation and extreme deprivation, the security of Communism, the advances in education, etc did not seem such bad trades.

Here in the US we have some truly communistic groups. The Hutterites, for example. There are 2 things that happen in such groups. One is they feel great kinship with one another. They essentially are one big "family". The other is that they see themselves as superior to other groups, usually spiritually. One can endure a lot for religion and superior belief. This is true, in part for the Amish as well, though they are definitely not communistic, just "plain".

[sully800]

I certainly support communism for small communities, but as others have said I don't believe it works so well on a large scale. In fact, this past weekend I moved into my very own commune of 60 homes. Now it is not communism as described above - people still own their own houses, work their own jobs and keep their own money - but we share many things including community meals, community supported agriculture, and the community itself is entirely pedestrian as there are no roads connecting the individual homes. The focus is on living in a sustainable manner with the natural surroundings and with your neighbors, and so far I love it here. I will be able to give much more accurate feedback on the topic as time progresses, but it seems to me that on a small scale communism works quite well. It certainly takes effort because not everyone in the community will always agree on important decisions, but in the end the quality of life seems to be much higher than for similarly sized typical American communities.

[Phatscotty]

I've heard all the horror stories, but I can't help but wonder if those are just propaganda from the American side, and that it just seems bad because I'm born here. It actually sounds like it could have significant economic benefits along with the disadvantages.
What are everyone's thoughts on this?

well, how do you like having your own thoughts? let's start there. If we had communism now, this subject would be off the table(and probably the interent altogether). did i just kill the thread?

you're so fucking stupid, jesus christ

look, the communist manifesto, as dense as it is and as cliche as it's become, is a really good treatise on what communism is and what its implications are, and the weaknesses of the capitalist system. it's indisputably one of the most important books ever written and you should read it if you haven't. perhaps if more people did that we could have a mature discussion about socialism and communism in this country instead of "BUT THEY WANTS TO TAKE ARE FREEEEEDOM ;___;"

Gotta love the "you dont like communism, your dumb" slanders. You make a very compelling case yourself. Ta!

[Timminz]

I love when people are able to be a parody of themselves.

[Frigidus]

I love when people are able to be a parody of themselves.

Some people seem to actually believe that there are two sides: pro-capitalism and pro-communism/fascism (interchangeable, ofc ). Those people are solely to be pointed and laughed at.

[Phatscotty]

capitalism has always funded communism. I function solely on the premise I choose what is best for me. I hav a severe problem when someone else tries to choose something for me. I am always the first to listen to someone try to convince me otherwise, always trying to learn a little bit more. Maybe I am wrong about things? Is the way I understand that really the way it is? I ask myself those things all the time. I am also always the first to concede a point to the other side, when they make them. There has been hardly anything on these threads I dem worthy of the level of the readings and opinions I base my beliefs on. Bring something simple to the table about the topic man. My statement is simple. Worry about yourself and DON'T TREAD ON ME!

[Army of GOD]

Wow, I had a total brain shit. I honestly thought Phat started this thread and then read his other posts and became greatly confused.

[Mr Changsha]

Having lived in the heart of the largest, most successful communist country for nearly six years...what can I tell you?

Creativity is stunted. Communism sucks the life out the artist, the critic, the creator...

Critical thinking is repressed. The education system (quite deliberately) values the retention of knowledge - for a test - over the development of critical thinking.

The news is just awful. So little truly interesting can ever be said on TV...there is an government officer in every TV station you know and nothing goes out without government approval.

The combination of a lack of critical thinking (population-wide) + propaganda TV = a people who know nothing that they aren't meant to know and will fight against anything they are told to fight against.

Corruption is just sickening, completely widespead and has infected every level of the system...from the village official up to the city mayors. One leader in Changsha was clearing 20 million dollars a year, had a private jet...all the rest of it while he should have been actually earning less than my annual salary. At the lower level, local officials rape the villagers through made up taxes, bankrupt a farmer such is their greed...and of course there is no one to defend them; being a lawyer is one of the most dangerous jobs in China you know, if you actually try and fight for the common man.

China is improving now, in parts...and certainly in my city. But it is the ever increasing influence of capitalism, liberalism, social justice (all imported from the West) which improves the place. Everything inspired by communism was just, well, shit.

Communism is a fucking disease.

[Phatscotty]

Wow, I had a total brain shit. I honestly thought Phat started this thread and then read his other posts and became greatly confused.

no i didnt start it, but perhaps you have misunderstood other things on other posts.

[Army of GOD]

Having lived in the heart of the largest, most successful communist country for nearly six years...what can I tell you?

Creativity is stunted. Communism sucks the life out the artist, the critic, the creator...

Critical thinking is repressed. The education system (quite deliberately) values the retention of knowledge - for a test - over the development of critical thinking.

The news is just awful. So little truly interesting can ever be said on TV...there is an government officer in every TV station you know and nothing goes out without government approval.

The combination of a lack of critical thinking (population-wide) + propaganda TV = a people who know nothing that they aren't meant to know and will fight against anything they are told to fight against.

Corruption is just sickening, completely widespead and has infected every level of the system...from the village official up to the city mayors. One leader in Changsha was clearing 20 million dollars a year, had a private jet...all the rest of it while he should have been actually earning less than my annual salary. At the lower level, local officials rape the villagers through made up taxes, bankrupt a farmer such is their greed...and of course there is no one to defend them; being a lawyer is one of the most dangerous jobs in China you know, if you actually try and fight for the common man.

China is improving now, in parts...and certainly in my city. But it is the ever increasing influence of capitalism, liberalism, social justice (all imported from the West) which improves the place. Everything inspired by communism was just, well, shit.

Communism is a fucking disease.

Haha I think that's case and point right there. Well, quite convincing at least.

Ideal communism: paradise.

Human communism: not so much.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Having lived in the heart of the largest, most successful communist country for nearly six years...what can I tell you?

Creativity is stunted. Communism sucks the life out the artist, the critic, the creator...

Critical thinking is repressed. The education system (quite deliberately) values the retention of knowledge - for a test - over the development of critical thinking.

The news is just awful. So little truly interesting can ever be said on TV...there is an government officer in every TV station you know and nothing goes out without government approval.

The combination of a lack of critical thinking (population-wide) + propaganda TV = a people who know nothing that they aren't meant to know and will fight against anything they are told to fight against.

Corruption is just sickening, completely widespead and has infected every level of the system...from the village official up to the city mayors. One leader in Changsha was clearing 20 million dollars a year, had a private jet...all the rest of it while he should have been actually earning less than my annual salary. At the lower level, local officials rape the villagers through made up taxes, bankrupt a farmer such is their greed...and of course there is no one to defend them; being a lawyer is one of the most dangerous jobs in China you know, if you actually try and fight for the common man.

China is improving now, in parts...and certainly in my city. But it is the ever increasing influence of capitalism, liberalism, social justice (all imported from the West) which improves the place. Everything inspired by communism was just, well, shit.

Communism is a fucking disease.

haha you think china is actually communist in any real sense

[Mr Changsha]

Having lived in the heart of the largest, most successful communist country for nearly six years...what can I tell you?

Creativity is stunted. Communism sucks the life out the artist, the critic, the creator...

Critical thinking is repressed. The education system (quite deliberately) values the retention of knowledge - for a test - over the development of critical thinking.

The news is just awful. So little truly interesting can ever be said on TV...there is an government officer in every TV station you know and nothing goes out without government approval.

The combination of a lack of critical thinking (population-wide) + propaganda TV = a people who know nothing that they aren't meant to know and will fight against anything they are told to fight against.

Corruption is just sickening, completely widespead and has infected every level of the system...from the village official up to the city mayors. One leader in Changsha was clearing 20 million dollars a year, had a private jet...all the rest of it while he should have been actually earning less than my annual salary. At the lower level, local officials rape the villagers through made up taxes, bankrupt a farmer such is their greed...and of course there is no one to defend them; being a lawyer is one of the most dangerous jobs in China you know, if you actually try and fight for the common man.

China is improving now, in parts...and certainly in my city. But it is the ever increasing influence of capitalism, liberalism, social justice (all imported from the West) which improves the place. Everything inspired by communism was just, well, shit.

Communism is a fucking disease.

haha you think china is actually communist in any real sense

Politically of course, in the sense that it is a communist party that has an iron grip on the power levers of the country.

Economically it is more confusing. Hyper-capitalism to an extent, but then there is an enormous percentage of the industrial capacity still in government hands.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Politically of course, in the sense that it is a communist party that has an iron grip on the power levers of the country.

by definition it is impossible for the government, to the extent it even actually exists in a communist system, to have an iron grip on power in one. china is an authoritarian police state, and is only nominally socialist, much less communist. none of your criticisms of chinese society are a result of communist policies, rather failures to institute them

[Mr Changsha]

Politically of course, in the sense that it is a communist party that has an iron grip on the power levers of the country.

by definition it is impossible for the government, to the extent it even actually exists in a communist system, to have an iron grip on power in one. china is an authoritarian police state, and is only nominally socialist, much less communist. none of your criticisms of chinese society are a result of communist policies, rather failures to institute them

Yeah, it reads great in a textbook but I think you are missing a fairly key point. Mao DID institute a socialist system into China from 1949 until his death....with the eventual aim of moving on to communism in the end. That period completely fucked the country and any Chinese would tell you the same...if they were being honest with you.

The fact that I've spoken to thousands of mainland Chinese about these things (including the people who lived through these times... including the cultural revolution) might make you step back a bit.

Of course you will claim Mao's communism was all wrong. I know that. But nonetheless, Mao made a genuine and serious attempt at socialism from 1949 - 1978. It was only when Deng got control of the country and began to make some small capitalist reforms that the country began to recover.

Btw...'China is an authoritarian police state'. How do you know? Do you live here? Do you actually know shit about China?

I'm not saying it exactly isn't (though it also isn't so simple I'd need to write an essay to explain why), but what experience have you had to justify the claim?

[Phatscotty]

ouch

[PLAYER57832]

Politically of course, in the sense that it is a communist party that has an iron grip on the power levers of the country.

by definition it is impossible for the government, to the extent it even actually exists in a communist system, to have an iron grip on power in one. china is an authoritarian police state, and is only nominally socialist, much less communist. none of your criticisms of chinese society are a result of communist policies, rather failures to institute them

Yeah, it reads great in a textbook but I think you are missing a fairly key point. Mao DID institute a socialist system into China from 1949 until his death....with the eventual aim of moving on to communism in the end. That period completely fucked the country and any Chinese would tell you the same...if they were being honest with you.

The fact that I've spoken to thousands of mainland Chinese about these things (including the people who lived through these times... including the cultural revolution) might make you step back a bit.

Of course you will claim Mao's communism was all wrong. I know that. But nonetheless, Mao made a genuine and serious attempt at socialism from 1949 - 1978. It was only when Deng got control of the country and began to make some small capitalist reforms that the country began to recover.

Yes and no. For one thing, the Nationalists and Japanese had each ran complete havoc with the country. Do I think the country would have been better rebuilding on its own? Of course! Mao punished intellectuals of all kinds, came close to destroying thousands of years of culture and committed many other ills.

However, fewer people were hungry under Moa than previously. He absolutely suppressed dissent, but China has not precisely had a tradition of free speech.

Btw...'China is an authoritarian police state'. How do you know? Do you live here? Do you actually know shit about China?

You don't have to live there to know that China is hardly a truly free country.

I'm not saying it exactly isn't (though it also isn't so simple I'd need to write an essay to explain why), but what experience have you had to justify the claim?

Everything is complicated, but the way the internet was restricted for even international journalists during the Olympics said a great deal about their "openness", as does the fact that so few Chinese know anything about Tibet or other minority issues.