9/11 conspiracy, A BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA

[jay_a2j]

The fact is that the facts lean FAR FAR FAR more towards to the reality of planes taking down the buildings than some "inside job" can be concocted out of exploiting confusion.

Maybe, if you suspend rational thinking.

[Juan_Bottom]

Oh yeah, and we lost millions of lives of soldiers in the war as well. Not just the men who died on Pearl Harbor.

american total lives lost in ww2 418,500. i know an american billion is different to a european billion, but a million is a million and 418,500 isn't in the millions numb nuts.

I think he is working from the presumption that each American life is worth like quadruple what any other life is worth. It's fair.

Though let me say that was sorta a joke. And I don't think that we bailed anyone's asses out in WWII, except maybe our own. WWI is a tossup though.

[Woodruff]

The fact is that the facts lean FAR FAR FAR more towards to the reality of planes taking down the buildings than some "inside job" can be concocted out of exploiting confusion.

Maybe, if you suspend rational thinking.

You mean like believing that the Bible is literal except for when it is clearly not being literal? That kind of rational thinking?

[jay_a2j]

The fact is that the facts lean FAR FAR FAR more towards to the reality of planes taking down the buildings than some "inside job" can be concocted out of exploiting confusion.

Maybe, if you suspend rational thinking.

You mean like believing that the Bible is literal except for when it is clearly not being literal? That kind of rational thinking?

Don't bash things you don't understand.

[Titanic]

You need to go back and re-check your history book. Yes, England was trying to put up a fight. However, before the US joined the war London was being bombed to hell. You guys couldn't help to stop Germany's march across Europe. Now maybe Germany would have had a hard time taking the island and maybe not, but don't be delusional into thinking that you could have repelled Germany by yourself, let alone HELP retake France and then march to Germany. Also, if Germany hadn't had a western front, they could have sent more troops and supplies and easily taken Russia. The Russian winter weather repelled the German advance, not the waves of soldiers Stalin sent at them.

You are right in the fact that without England, the US wouldn't have been able to mount an offensive in Europe. We needed air bases and a base of operations to attack from. However, you Brits make it sound like you had everything under control and we joined to gain power. Neither was the case.

And by the way, we had already sold millions of dollars worth of war weapons, materials, etc. to the allies before joining the war. Pearl Harbor may have been the set off point, but Germans sinking supply ships in the Atlantic headed to England certainly got us thinking about joining the war long before that.

Oh yeah, and we lost millions of lives of soldiers in the war as well. Not just the men who died on Pearl Harbor.

You are so wrong on so many accounts. Try picking up a WWII book which dusn't have Iwo Jima or some other US patriotism picture on the front cover.

The Battle of Britain was over by the time the US joined the war, Operation Sealion had been cancelled and Hitler gave up on his plan to invade Great Britain. There was no threat to the British mainland and the US never defended the British homeland. We probably would not have defeated Germany by ourself, but we still would have cleared North Africa by ourselves and assuming Mussolini still got overthrown would have been able to put tremendous pressure on the Nazis.

I don't see how you joining the war in anyway changed the Eastern Front. In the first year it may have been true that the Russian winter harmed the Germans more then the Soviets, but from the beggining of the Russian invasion to the occupation of Berlin there was more then 1 winter and more then 1 summer. The Soviets decisevly beat the Nazis, not because of the weather or through pure luck, from Stalingrad and 1942 onwards the Soviets continually pushed the Nazis back and were the stronger army and had a better military strategy (letting it be decided primarily by generals rather then the crazy dictator).

Finally, as covered before, million of US soldiers died? Eh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_ ... by_country

By pure military losses you're 6th in the table, by total population loss you way down, and by % of the population you're practically the best of. Don't try to pretend that the USA suffered greatly during WWII. You want to look at the nation which did the worst out of WWII, look at Poland. The nation which did the best, USA.

[Woodruff]

The fact is that the facts lean FAR FAR FAR more towards to the reality of planes taking down the buildings than some "inside job" can be concocted out of exploiting confusion.

Maybe, if you suspend rational thinking.

You mean like believing that the Bible is literal except for when it is clearly not being literal? That kind of rational thinking?

Don't bash things you don't understand.

Yes, it's always the chickenous way out to try to pretend that those who disagree with you "simply don't understand".

[Titanic]

Just to clarify the situation:

* 1,366 people died who were at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC); according to the Commission Report, hundreds were killed instantly by the impact while the rest were trapped and died after the tower collapsed (though a few people were pulled from the rubble, none of them were from above the impact zone).[27]
* As many as 600 people were killed instantly or trapped at or above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above and in the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.
* Of those who worked below the impact zones, only 110 were among those killed in the attacks. The 9/11 Commission notes that this fact strongly indicates that evacuation below the impact zones was a success, allowing most to safely evacuate before the collapse of the World Trade Center.[28]


Taking away deaths from the planes and rescue workers, I make it that 95% of those who died in the Twin Towers were above the crash zone.

[Frigidus]

Just to clarify the situation:

* 1,366 people died who were at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC); according to the Commission Report, hundreds were killed instantly by the impact while the rest were trapped and died after the tower collapsed (though a few people were pulled from the rubble, none of them were from above the impact zone).[27]
* As many as 600 people were killed instantly or trapped at or above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above and in the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.
* Of those who worked below the impact zones, only 110 were among those killed in the attacks. The 9/11 Commission notes that this fact strongly indicates that evacuation below the impact zones was a success, allowing most to safely evacuate before the collapse of the World Trade Center.[28]


Taking away deaths from the planes and rescue workers, I make it that 95% of those who died in the Twin Towers were above the crash zone.

Oh, cool, I was too lazy to look up the hard data on that one. So yeah, I guess that other point I made stands, if 95% of the deaths occurred before the towers collapsed, why rig it with explosives and blow it up despite the risk of being found out?

[Titanic]

Just to clarify the situation:

* 1,366 people died who were at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC); according to the Commission Report, hundreds were killed instantly by the impact while the rest were trapped and died after the tower collapsed (though a few people were pulled from the rubble, none of them were from above the impact zone).[27]
* As many as 600 people were killed instantly or trapped at or above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above and in the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.
* Of those who worked below the impact zones, only 110 were among those killed in the attacks. The 9/11 Commission notes that this fact strongly indicates that evacuation below the impact zones was a success, allowing most to safely evacuate before the collapse of the World Trade Center.[28]


Taking away deaths from the planes and rescue workers, I make it that 95% of those who died in the Twin Towers were above the crash zone.

Oh, cool, I was too lazy to look up the hard data on that one. So yeah, I guess that other point I made stands, if 95% of the deaths occurred before the towers collapsed, why rig it with explosives and blow it up despite the risk of being found out?

No no, 95% of the deaths didnt occur before it collpased, 95% of the people who died when it collapsed were above where the planes hit. That was my point, just claifying some stuff people denied earlier.

[AgentSmith88]

what you are saying is that if bombs had been planted at the base to take the towers down then more than 5% of those below the impact zone would have been in the death toll.

[Titanic]

what you are saying is that if bombs had been planted at the base to take the towers down then more than 5% of those below the impact zone would have been in the death toll.

Well you know...they had big basements

[AgentSmith88]

and apparently a building shaking because it's about to come down feels alot like a bomb going off in the basement to some janitors.....

[Pedronicus]

and apparently a building shaking because it's about to come down feels alot like a bomb going off in the basement to some janitors.....

if a plane hits the 70th-80th floor, I highly doubt that a janitor on the floor level will hear many bangs from 70 floors up.

[pimpdave]

and apparently a building shaking because it's about to come down feels alot like a bomb going off in the basement to some janitors.....

if a plane hits the 70th-80th floor, I highly doubt that a janitor on the floor level will hear many bangs from 70 floors up.

The oxygen being trapped in the elevator shafts and exploding out in a fireball of jet fuel falling certainly made a fucking bang. And then the people on fire....

f*ck this. Go to hell. Then you'll see what we witnessed that day. That janitor is a complete retard. Like seriously a retarded person incapable of understanding and processing the world around him.

[BigBallinStalin]

Just to clarify the situation:

* 1,366 people died who were at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC); according to the Commission Report, hundreds were killed instantly by the impact while the rest were trapped and died after the tower collapsed (though a few people were pulled from the rubble, none of them were from above the impact zone).[27]
* As many as 600 people were killed instantly or trapped at or above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above and in the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.
* Of those who worked below the impact zones, only 110 were among those killed in the attacks. The 9/11 Commission notes that this fact strongly indicates that evacuation below the impact zones was a success, allowing most to safely evacuate before the collapse of the World Trade Center.[28]


Taking away deaths from the planes and rescue workers, I make it that 95% of those who died in the Twin Towers were above the crash zone.

Holy shit, that's gotta be a world record. 18 of them too. I wonder how they escaped... They had about 10 minutes right? They actually used the elevator? (I thought they shut em down automatically after the building detects such a huge fire) No way they could run down the stairs that quickly...

If it's the elevator, then taking the elvator seems to be the best way to escape in that scenario.

[john9blue]

I've been avoiding this thread because dave already went emo on me about this. I'll just say that I don't trust our government enough to NOT consider the possibility of an inside job. Nobody should. Let the evidence play itself out I suppose... hopefully the truth will come to light some day.

[Titanic]

Just to clarify the situation:

* 1,366 people died who were at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC); according to the Commission Report, hundreds were killed instantly by the impact while the rest were trapped and died after the tower collapsed (though a few people were pulled from the rubble, none of them were from above the impact zone).[27]
* As many as 600 people were killed instantly or trapped at or above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above and in the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.
* Of those who worked below the impact zones, only 110 were among those killed in the attacks. The 9/11 Commission notes that this fact strongly indicates that evacuation below the impact zones was a success, allowing most to safely evacuate before the collapse of the World Trade Center.[28]


Taking away deaths from the planes and rescue workers, I make it that 95% of those who died in the Twin Towers were above the crash zone.

Holy shit, that's gotta be a world record. 18 of them too. I wonder how they escaped... They had about 10 minutes right? They actually used the elevator? (I thought they shut em down automatically after the building detects such a huge fire) No way they could run down the stairs that quickly...

If it's the elevator, then taking the elvator seems to be the best way to escape in that scenario.

Na, they had 56 minutes. 56 minutes for South Tower, 102 minutes for the North Tower.

[BigBallinStalin]

Just to clarify the situation:

* 1,366 people died who were at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC); according to the Commission Report, hundreds were killed instantly by the impact while the rest were trapped and died after the tower collapsed (though a few people were pulled from the rubble, none of them were from above the impact zone).[27]
* As many as 600 people were killed instantly or trapped at or above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above and in the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.
* Of those who worked below the impact zones, only 110 were among those killed in the attacks. The 9/11 Commission notes that this fact strongly indicates that evacuation below the impact zones was a success, allowing most to safely evacuate before the collapse of the World Trade Center.[28]


Taking away deaths from the planes and rescue workers, I make it that 95% of those who died in the Twin Towers were above the crash zone.

Holy shit, that's gotta be a world record. 18 of them too. I wonder how they escaped... They had about 10 minutes right? They actually used the elevator? (I thought they shut em down automatically after the building detects such a huge fire) No way they could run down the stairs that quickly...

If it's the elevator, then taking the elvator seems to be the best way to escape in that scenario.

Na, they had 56 minutes. 56 minutes for South Tower, 102 minutes for the North Tower.

Well, good for them. Clearest headed people there..

[AgentSmith88]

I've been avoiding this thread because dave already went emo on me about this. I'll just say that I don't trust our government enough to NOT consider the possibility of an inside job. Nobody should. Let the evidence play itself out I suppose... hopefully the truth will come to light some day.

Our government isn't some evil entity. It's made up of people just like you and me (except usually with a lot more money). This isn't 24 where every hour there seems to be some new government conspiracy. Elected officials may disagree with each other but they are all in effect serving this country by trying to do what they think is right for it.

I can see 2 scenarios

1. There is no conspiracy
2. The conspiracy involved blowing up our own buildings so we could invade a foreign nation.

Assuming 2, why would we want to invade? The only logical reason I can think of is for oil. Nothing else in the Middle East would be worth it for the US. If that's the case, the govt did a TERRIBLE job planning because they would have needed those countries stabilized to get oil from them. Not to mention that the way technology is progressing hydrogen cells and natural gas will far surpass petroleum in our lifetimes. And if the government is that inept then how could they have pulled off blowing up their own buildings without anyone finding out?

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? We saw the evidence of planes hitting the buildings. The simplest explanation is that is what made them fall.

[Titanic]

Well, good for them. Clearest headed people there..

Or luckiest....

Our government isn't some evil entity. It's made up of people just like you and me (except usually with a lot more money). This isn't 24 where every hour there seems to be some new government conspiracy. Elected officials may disagree with each other but they are all in effect serving this country by trying to do what they think is right for it.

I can see 2 scenarios

1. There is no conspiracy
2. The conspiracy involved blowing up our own buildings so we could invade a foreign nation.

Assuming 2, why would we want to invade? The only logical reason I can think of is for oil. Nothing else in the Middle East would be worth it for the US. If that's the case, the govt did a TERRIBLE job planning because they would have needed those countries stabilized to get oil from them. Not to mention that the way technology is progressing hydrogen cells and natural gas will far surpass petroleum in our lifetimes. And if the government is that inept then how could they have pulled off blowing up their own buildings without anyone finding out?

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? We saw the evidence of planes hitting the buildings. The simplest explanation is that is what made them fall.

If it was #2, why blame it on Al-Qaida? Iraq was clearly where Bush wanted to go, why not plant the evidence that it was Iraqi terrorists or an Iraqi backed plot? The actual event was mainly Saudis at the will of a group taking refuge in Afghanistan. That doesn't fit anywhere within the war with Iraq story.

[Juan_Bottom]

what you are saying is that if bombs had been planted at the base to take the towers down then more than 5% of those below the impact zone would have been in the death toll.

Well you know...they had big basements

They had to. The buildings are anchored onto Bedrock.

and apparently a building shaking because it's about to come down feels alot like a bomb going off in the basement to some janitors.....

No you're just dumb. The building wasn't coming down then. He heard one explosion that he thought was on the roof. So he took the stairs to go up and investigate. THEN he heard an explosion under him. So he left the building. THEN LATER THE BUILDING FELL. I was fairly clear on that.

and apparently a building shaking because it's about to come down feels alot like a bomb going off in the basement to some janitors.....

if a plane hits the 70th-80th floor, I highly doubt that a janitor on the floor level will hear many bangs from 70 floors up.

Holy shit, that's gotta be a world record. 18 of them too. I wonder how they escaped... They had about 10 minutes right? They actually used the elevator? (I thought they shut em down automatically after the building detects such a huge fire) No way they could run down the stairs that quickly...

If it's the elevator, then taking the elvator seems to be the best way to escape in that scenario.

Where the jets hit it took out the stairs and elevators. I dunno either. I think maybe the injured where immediately ushered out.

I'll just say that I don't trust our government enough to NOT consider the possibility of an inside job.

I already mentioned Operation Northwoods which was a very similar plan. Inside Job plans have existed.

Well, good for them. Clearest headed people there..

The man who built the towers died when the tower he was in collapsed. That is the ultimate sign that no one thought they would go. It's never happened.
Plus the firefighters at the fire said they needed two hand lines and everything would be put out. No reason to panic.

Our government isn't some evil entity.

That is some kind of oxymoron sentence, lol.

2. The conspiracy involved blowing up our own buildings so we could invade a foreign nation.

That's conjecture though. Really it's better to stick to facts.

Nothing else in the Middle East would be worth it for the US.

Elected officials may disagree with each other but they are all in effect serving this country by trying to do what they think is right for it.

Are you trolling? America is a two party system where politicians from both sides serve their parties interests before they serve our countries interests.

Iraq was clearly where Bush wanted to go, why not plant the evidence that it was Iraqi terrorists or an Iraqi backed plot?

That is conjecture. I could throw a thousand "What-ifs" in there.
Iraq was a fairly well developed/established nation. It's important to remember that.

The actual event was mainly Saudis at the will of a group taking refuge in Afghanistan. That doesn't fit anywhere within the war with Iraq story.

It didn't matter to anyone at the time though did it?

[Neoteny]

Question: supposing it were an inside job, would the opposite party take advantage of knowledge of any information that would point to that? I imagine that any sort of correspondence linking the previous administration would be destroyed, but with the handing over of the reigns, would it not be likely that reliable information might be passed over? I understand that there's disagreement over the scale required to pull off bringing down the towers, but people are people, even in small numbers, and it seems to me that somehow this would have gotten out on a political level (as opposed to a purely internet phenomenon). I mean, if Republicans could be linked to bringing down the Towers, Obama would probably be a shoo-in for a second term. Hell, something like that could even be the death of a party.

And when you consider that, do we think that even Bush, in his notorious wisdom, would risk threatening his buddies' future for a regime change in another country? I realize we are getting into some serious hypothetical questions (to be fair, analysis of the facts has not come anywhere close to convincing me of the possibility of an inside job), but all of these considerations do bear on the decision-making process of staging a terrorist attack on your own people. When I consider all these possibilities, it really just makes the inside job hypothesis seem less and less likely.

[BigBallinStalin]

Question: supposing it were an inside job, would the opposite party take advantage of knowledge of any information that would point to that? I imagine that any sort of correspondence linking the previous administration would be destroyed, but with the handing over of the reigns, would it not be likely that reliable information might be passed over? I understand that there's disagreement over the scale required to pull off bringing down the towers, but people are people, even in small numbers, and it seems to me that somehow this would have gotten out on a political level (as opposed to a purely internet phenomenon). I mean, if Republicans could be linked to bringing down the Towers, Obama would probably be a shoo-in for a second term. Hell, something like that could even be the death of a party.

And when you consider that, do we think that even Bush, in his notorious wisdom, would risk threatening his buddies' future for a regime change in another country? I realize we are getting into some serious hypothetical questions (to be fair, analysis of the facts has not come anywhere close to convincing me of the possibility of an inside job), but all of these considerations do bear on the decision-making process of staging a terrorist attack on your own people. When I consider all these possibilities, it really just makes the inside job hypothesis seem less and less likely.

Which reminds me. The Joint Chiefs of Staff around the early 1950s did hammer out that plan of Operation Northwoods, but it was never carried out. Although that operation may lend some insight into what the JCS are capable of coming up with, it probably would've been difficult to carry out and keep secret after that plan was unleashed. Surely, many within the JCS thought of the difficulties in keeping such a plan secret. That and if such an attack were to be carried out, how many years could such a horrendous crime be kept secret?

If there was a kind of inside job that Juan and Jay are talking about, there would be many many people involved in such an operation. How many of those operatives would stay secret about such a horrendous crime?　Sure, some agents of ours have done some terrible things, but this would be the most horrendous and hardest for one to keep secret to one's self. It's huge news, and if it did happen, imagine the incentive there would be for someone to crack the truth as well... Unless of course all people involved were killed, but that would require killing some very high officials (which didn't happen)... The more factors one considers that are involved in such an inside job, the more and more such an inside job seems less plausible.

[jay_a2j]

Question: supposing it were an inside job, would the opposite party take advantage of knowledge of any information that would point to that? I imagine that any sort of correspondence linking the previous administration would be destroyed, but with the handing over of the reigns, would it not be likely that reliable information might be passed over? I understand that there's disagreement over the scale required to pull off bringing down the towers, but people are people, even in small numbers, and it seems to me that somehow this would have gotten out on a political level (as opposed to a purely internet phenomenon). I mean, if Republicans could be linked to bringing down the Towers, Obama would probably be a shoo-in for a second term. Hell, something like that could even be the death of a party.

And when you consider that, do we think that even Bush, in his notorious wisdom, would risk threatening his buddies' future for a regime change in another country? I realize we are getting into some serious hypothetical questions (to be fair, analysis of the facts has not come anywhere close to convincing me of the possibility of an inside job), but all of these considerations do bear on the decision-making process of staging a terrorist attack on your own people. When I consider all these possibilities, it really just makes the inside job hypothesis seem less and less likely.

Which reminds me. The Joint Chiefs of Staff around the early 1950s did hammer out that plan of Operation Northwoods, but it was never carried out. Although that operation may lend some insight into what the JCS are capable of coming up with, it probably would've been difficult to carry out and keep secret after that plan was unleashed. Surely, many within the JCS thought of the difficulties in keeping such a plan secret. That and if such an attack were to be carried out, how many years could such a horrendous crime be kept secret?

If there was a kind of inside job that Juan and Jay are talking about, there would be many many people involved in such an operation. How many of those operatives would stay secret about such a horrendous crime?　Sure, some agents of ours have done some terrible things, but this would be the most horrendous and hardest for one to keep secret to one's self. It's huge news, and if it did happen, imagine the incentive there would be for someone to crack the truth as well... Unless of course all people involved were killed, but that would require killing some very high officials (which didn't happen)... The more factors one considers that are involved in such an inside job, the more and more such an inside job seems less plausible.

Only the few at the top knew what was going on... the other patsies, on a need to know basis. It would not take thousands or even hundreds of people to pull it off. But there most likely are hundreds who are pushing this NWO just in the US government alone.

[Frigidus]

Question: supposing it were an inside job, would the opposite party take advantage of knowledge of any information that would point to that? I imagine that any sort of correspondence linking the previous administration would be destroyed, but with the handing over of the reigns, would it not be likely that reliable information might be passed over? I understand that there's disagreement over the scale required to pull off bringing down the towers, but people are people, even in small numbers, and it seems to me that somehow this would have gotten out on a political level (as opposed to a purely internet phenomenon). I mean, if Republicans could be linked to bringing down the Towers, Obama would probably be a shoo-in for a second term. Hell, something like that could even be the death of a party.

And when you consider that, do we think that even Bush, in his notorious wisdom, would risk threatening his buddies' future for a regime change in another country? I realize we are getting into some serious hypothetical questions (to be fair, analysis of the facts has not come anywhere close to convincing me of the possibility of an inside job), but all of these considerations do bear on the decision-making process of staging a terrorist attack on your own people. When I consider all these possibilities, it really just makes the inside job hypothesis seem less and less likely.

Which reminds me. The Joint Chiefs of Staff around the early 1950s did hammer out that plan of Operation Northwoods, but it was never carried out. Although that operation may lend some insight into what the JCS are capable of coming up with, it probably would've been difficult to carry out and keep secret after that plan was unleashed. Surely, many within the JCS thought of the difficulties in keeping such a plan secret. That and if such an attack were to be carried out, how many years could such a horrendous crime be kept secret?

If there was a kind of inside job that Juan and Jay are talking about, there would be many many people involved in such an operation. How many of those operatives would stay secret about such a horrendous crime?　Sure, some agents of ours have done some terrible things, but this would be the most horrendous and hardest for one to keep secret to one's self. It's huge news, and if it did happen, imagine the incentive there would be for someone to crack the truth as well... Unless of course all people involved were killed, but that would require killing some very high officials (which didn't happen)... The more factors one considers that are involved in such an inside job, the more and more such an inside job seems less plausible.

Only the few at the top knew what was going on... the other patsies, on a need to know basis. It would not take thousands or even hundreds of people to pull it off. But there most likely are hundreds who are pushing this NWO just in the US government alone.

It wouldn't take hundreds to rig two skyscrapers top to bottom with explosives, set to go off in a manner that would mimic a collapse (but not quite, they didn't want to make it resemble a collapse too much), monitor several religious extremists and encourage them to strike particular targets on a certain day, fire a missile at the pentagon, spirit away the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon somewhere and eliminate those on board without radar picking anything unusual up, and ensure that not a single person involved in the job would blow said job's cover before or after it occurred?