Scotty, your criticism of my understanding of socialism is compelling (though socialism can exist at the city level as well). From my perspective, one of the main reasons (though not the only reason) that modern governments in industrialized nations exist is to protect people from rampant power. In developed countries like the U.S., a lot of that protection means protection from corporations that are by their very nature driven by greed.
I wouldn't and didn't say that everyone has a fighting chance. That is something that many of us like to believe, but in reality it isn't true. The wealth gap is widening at a startling rate and that, to me, is an indication that people in fact have even less of a fighting change than they used to. Sure, there are people who overcome seemingly insurmountable odds, but the fact that there is a whole section of the movie industry devoted to telling their story should make it clear how rare those individuals are; that's exactly why those movies are "inspiring." Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of similar people who try just as hard but never make it because that is how this system works.
anthroguy wrote:Scotty, you point about how not to be socialist is compelling (though socialism can exist at the city level as well). From my perspective, one of the main reasons (though not the only reason) that modern governments in industrialized nations exist is to protect people from rampant power. In developed countries like the U.S., a lot of that protection means protection from corporations that are by their very nature driven by greed.
I wouldn't and didn't say that everyone has a fighting chance. That is something that many of us like to believe, but in reality it isn't true. The wealth gap is widening at a startling rate and that, to me, is an indication that people in fact have even less of a fighting change than they used to. Sure, there are people who overcome seemingly insurmountable odds, but the fact that there is a whole section of the movie industry devoted to telling their story should make it clear how rare those individuals are; that's exactly why those movies are "inspiring." Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of similar people who try just as hard but never make it because that is how this system works.
I've had this argument too many times to have it again. The income gap is always gong to widen. The people with the most money are pretty smart when it comes to money and even smarter about keeping it. However the income gap gas nothing to do with the poorest person being able to stand out and work hard and eventually set up a pretty good life for him/herself, if not their children. Oops, is that too priviledged? toungue in cheek
anthroguy wrote:Scotty, your criticism of my understanding of socialism is compelling (though socialism can exist at the city level as well). From my perspective, one of the main reasons (though not the only reason) that modern governments in industrialized nations exist is to protect people from rampant power. In developed countries like the U.S., a lot of that protection means protection from corporations that are by their very nature driven by greed.
I wouldn't and didn't say that everyone has a fighting chance. That is something that many of us like to believe, but in reality it isn't true. The wealth gap is widening at a startling rate and that, to me, is an indication that people in fact have even less of a fighting change than they used to. Sure, there are people who overcome seemingly insurmountable odds, but the fact that there is a whole section of the movie industry devoted to telling their story should make it clear how rare those individuals are; that's exactly why those movies are "inspiring." Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of similar people who try just as hard but never make it because that is how this system works.
I've had this argument too many times to have it again. The income gap is always gong to widen. The people with the most money are pretty smart when it comes to money and even smarter about keeping it. However the income gap gas nothing to do with the poorest person being able to stand out and work hard and eventually set up a pretty good life for him/herself, if not their children. Oops, is that too priviledged? toungue in cheek
I don't think it's as black and white as either allowing parents to provide for their children or not allowing them to. Few would deny parents that right.
The fact the income gap is actually not rising in some industrialized nations (e.g., in the United Kingdom, I believe) disproves the idea that it must always grow. That's a fairly bleak outlook on the world, in fact, because a widening income gap translates as increasing poverty for ever vaster portions of the majority.
anthroguy wrote:Scotty, your criticism of my understanding of socialism is compelling (though socialism can exist at the city level as well). From my perspective, one of the main reasons (though not the only reason) that modern governments in industrialized nations exist is to protect people from rampant power. In developed countries like the U.S., a lot of that protection means protection from corporations that are by their very nature driven by greed.
I wouldn't and didn't say that everyone has a fighting chance. That is something that many of us like to believe, but in reality it isn't true. The wealth gap is widening at a startling rate and that, to me, is an indication that people in fact have even less of a fighting change than they used to. Sure, there are people who overcome seemingly insurmountable odds, but the fact that there is a whole section of the movie industry devoted to telling their story should make it clear how rare those individuals are; that's exactly why those movies are "inspiring." Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of similar people who try just as hard but never make it because that is how this system works.
I've had this argument too many times to have it again. The income gap is always gong to widen. The people with the most money are pretty smart when it comes to money and even smarter about keeping it. However the income gap gas nothing to do with the poorest person being able to stand out and work hard and eventually set up a pretty good life for him/herself, if not their children. Oops, is that too priviledged? toungue in cheek
I don't think it's as black and white as either allowing parents to provide for their children or not allowing them to. Few would deny parents that right.
The fact the income gap is actually not rising in some industrialized nations (e.g., in the United Kingdom, I believe) disproves the idea that it must always grow. That's a fairly bleak outlook on the world, in fact, because a widening income gap translates as increasing poverty for ever vaster portions of the majority.
The Income gap will always be large and usually grow wherever freedom exists. period. Of course, the fact about the lowest percentage of the income gap in the USA in fact do live a far higher standard of living than most other countries.
The plain on which the income gap scale exists in the USA is a at much higher dimension than almost if not all other countries in the world. This is not bragging, it's a fair counterpoint.
And as for your specific example (I will thank you for that rarity ) of Britain, I am going to have to introduce the reality that Britain pays a higher percentage of their GDP to service their entitlements and debts than EVERY other country in the world.
Phatscotty wrote:
The plain on which the income gap scale exists in the USA is a at much higher dimension than almost if not all other countries in the world. This is not bragging, it's a fair counterpoint.
Except of course for all the other first world countries.
And as for your specific example (I will thank you for that rarity ) of Britain, I am going to have to introduce the reality that Britain pays a higher percentage of their GDP to service their entitlements and debts than EVERY other country in the world.
So? The poor people are still better off.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."
Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
Phatscotty wrote:
The plain on which the income gap scale exists in the USA is a at much higher dimension than almost if not all other countries in the world. This is not bragging, it's a fair counterpoint.
Except of course for all the other first world countries.
And as for your specific example (I will thank you for that rarity ) of Britain, I am going to have to introduce the reality that Britain pays a higher percentage of their GDP to service their entitlements and debts than EVERY other country in the world.
So? The poor people are still better off.
no, the poor demanded the bankruptcy of their own country by demanding more than they pay in (OBVIOUSLY). Now they are all equally fucked.
Phatscotty wrote:
The plain on which the income gap scale exists in the USA is a at much higher dimension than almost if not all other countries in the world. This is not bragging, it's a fair counterpoint.
Except of course for all the other first world countries.
And as for your specific example (I will thank you for that rarity ) of Britain, I am going to have to introduce the reality that Britain pays a higher percentage of their GDP to service their entitlements and debts than EVERY other country in the world.
So? The poor people are still better off.
no, the poor demanded the bankruptcy of their own country by demanding more than they pay in (OBVIOUSLY). Now they are all equally fucked.
Which is of course bollocks and irrelevant. Even if the poor demand more than the pay in it doesn't matter because the rich pay more than they get.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."
Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
Phatscotty wrote:
The plain on which the income gap scale exists in the USA is a at much higher dimension than almost if not all other countries in the world. This is not bragging, it's a fair counterpoint.
Except of course for all the other first world countries.
And as for your specific example (I will thank you for that rarity ) of Britain, I am going to have to introduce the reality that Britain pays a higher percentage of their GDP to service their entitlements and debts than EVERY other country in the world.
So? The poor people are still better off.
no, the poor demanded the bankruptcy of their own country by demanding more than they pay in (OBVIOUSLY). Now they are all equally fucked.
Which is of course bollocks and irrelevant. Even if the poor demand more than the pay in it doesn't matter because the rich pay more than they get.
you dont have to have visited Greece to see that the philosophies and the politics you spew are the reason Greece is falling.
Entitlements too high?
Paying more and more out of your pocket every month just to interest on money borrowed?
Sick of never being able to get out of debt?
DONT WORRY!
hIIIIiiii, Libby Lib here, and I have a great idea to fix all your debt problems....
BORROW MORE!
that's right! can't pay the interest on all the money you borrowed for entitlement programs?
Borrow more money to pay the interest! Some dipstick might say, "But Libby, then you end up owing more principle, and you will owe more in interest!"
you dont have to have visited Greece to see that the philosophies and the politics you spew are the reason Greece is falling.
Entitlements too high?
Paying more and more out of your pocket every month just to interest on money borrowed?
Sick of never being able to get out of debt?
DONT WORRY!
hIIIIiiii, Libby Lib here, and I have a great idea to fix all your debt problems....
BORROW MORE!
that's right! can't pay the interest on all the money you borrowed for entitlement programs?
Borrow more money to pay the interest! Some dipstick might say, "But Libby, then you end up owing more principle, and you will owe more in interest!"
NO PROBLEM! BORROW MORE!!!!!
Erm, I don't see anybody extolling the merits of unbridled, out in the open corruption. I'm actually somewhat opposed to that, actually. Good governance is an extremely strong factor in development.
Also, Greece's economic outlook under their new Socialist president, Papandreu (or something. sorry) is actually improving. Last time I checked, that is. Still the economic pariah of Europe (except for the socialist utopia of Iceland. You know how it was excessive government regulation that overleveraged their economy in derivate-laden bank stocks? Of course it wasn't, but you probably think it was) foreign debt / GDP ratio, but I think it's supposed to be improving in the whole accountability department, which is a step forward. This is pretty much the extent of my knowledge of Greece's economy.
... Should I sign up for the CLASS Act, contained in the new reforms, does my family have access to all that money I put into it should I die before it's used? Can my kids get it?
... Or is it like social security? Sorry! Thank you for playing! Rest in peace.
... Should I sign up for the CLASS Act, contained in the new reforms, does my family have access to all that money I put into it should I die before it's used? Can my kids get it?
... Or is it like social security? Sorry! Thank you for playing! Rest in peace.
..
entitlement programs are all, by nature, ponzi schemes. Please stop supporting our bid for the dumbest generation in world history to put everything into a ponzi shceme!
... Should I sign up for the CLASS Act, contained in the new reforms, does my family have access to all that money I put into it should I die before it's used? Can my kids get it?
... Or is it like social security? Sorry! Thank you for playing! Rest in peace.
..
entitlement programs are all, by nature, ponzi schemes. Please stop supporting our bid for the dumbest generation in world history to put everything into a ponzi shceme!
Please explain why it's a ponzi scheme.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."
Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
... Should I sign up for the CLASS Act, contained in the new reforms, does my family have access to all that money I put into it should I die before it's used? Can my kids get it?
... Or is it like social security? Sorry! Thank you for playing! Rest in peace.
..
entitlement programs are all, by nature, ponzi schemes. Please stop supporting our bid for the dumbest generation in world history to put everything into a ponzi shceme!
Please explain why it's a ponzi scheme.
Scotty doesn't even know the ins and outs of a real ponzi scheme so don't expect a analytical comparison for these "entitlement ponzi schemes".
Phatscotty, they don't all fit the definition of a ponzi scheme. Back away from that one.
Now, just because they are not all ponzi schemes doesn't mean they should not be eliminated. Translation, most of them are still bad despite not being ponzi schemes. Translation v2.0, they are bad and should be eliminated.
V3.0: they are bad and should at least be eliminated at the federal level, but with each state allowed to do whatever welfare state programs they choose.
Trephining wrote:V3.0: they are bad and should at least be eliminated at the federal level, but with each state allowed to do whatever welfare state programs they choose.
Which is what the Constitution was set up to allow.
toungue in cheek
) of Britain, I am going to have to introduce the reality that Britain pays a higher percentage of their GDP to service their entitlements and debts than EVERY other country in the world.
