AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

[slomo]

You combined many territories, which makes it hard to find the right names.

I'd recommend changing Bremen into Hannover (there was a kingdom called Hannover, it was conquered by Prussia in the 19th century)
There is a Problem with Saxony, because it combines Prussian territories and territories that weren't Prussion (like Saxony!).

I would prefer Brandenburg instead of Mecklenburg, because Brandenburg is more important (and I think Mecklenburg was independent from Prussia, so Berlin cannot be a city in Meckl.)

[Industrial Helix]

Looking at this again I think Benelux ought to be named the Low countries... the term Benelux is a post-WWII term.

You ever thought of giving this map an industrial revolution graphical feel? I don't think the sandy texture really conveys trains and steam power, ect.

[natty dread]

You combined many territories, which makes it hard to find the right names.

I'd recommend changing Bremen into Hannover (there was a kingdom called Hannover, it was conquered by Prussia in the 19th century)
There is a Problem with Saxony, because it combines Prussian territories and territories that weren't Prussion (like Saxony!).

I would prefer Brandenburg instead of Mecklenburg, because Brandenburg is more important (and I think Mecklenburg was independent from Prussia, so Berlin cannot be a city in Meckl.)

That's good advice for the naming. AFAIK, Prussia was not an independent country at 1883, it was part of the German empire... Also territories had to be combined, due to the scale of the map. There's only so much you can fit into 840x800 pixels.

So I'm going to rename Bremen -> Hannover, Mecklenburg -> Brandenburg.

Looking at this again I think Benelux ought to be named the Low countries... the term Benelux is a post-WWII term.

You ever thought of giving this map an industrial revolution graphical feel? I don't think the sandy texture really conveys trains and steam power, ect.

Benelux -> Low countries. Sounds good.

As for the visual style, my inspiration was a map drawn in 1883. Which was also the map I traced... Anyway, when I start working on the map again there will be plenty of time to think about graphical solutions. Currently the Foundry's 2 map limitation forces this map to sit in the melting pot until I can get Nordic countries finished.

[natty dread]

I have some ideas for gameplay. I'm going to partly follow suggestions from cairns & IH, which means:

- country bonuses will be scrapped. Instead a territory bonus in style of conquest maps will be implemented: +1 for every 3 territories of a country. Exception will be made with countries with less than 3 territories, which each give +1 when held.

- passengers will be added as resources. Each country will have 1-2 territories with passengers. The passenger bonus will be awarded when you hold a passenger territory and a train station of the same country. Also, each adjacent train station grows the bonus (the further you transport the passengers, the more you get). The territories that passengers will be on, haven't deicided that yet, but I'm thinking places with large cities...

- possible idea: tourist attractions. Transport passengers into these for extra bonus?

- orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.

Well, what do you think? This should help to make the gameplay more unique, and make the railway more relevant to the map.

I'm also considering starting positions... in fact they may be necessary with the bonus system.

Anyway, the development of this map shall continue as soon as Nordic countries is in the final forge.

[isaiah40]

orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.

I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.

[natty dread]

orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.

I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.

How do you mean exactly?

[isaiah40]

orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.

I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.

How do you mean exactly?

Well like you mentioned, hold them for passengers, and get extra passengers as a result.

[natty dread]

Yes... but do you mean, that the orient express stations couldn't be used for this, then? I'd like the o.e. railway to be powerful enough to be the focus of the map.

[natty dread]

The time for resuming development of this map is coming closer... My Nordic map is almost in beta, so I'll have time to work on this, also the 2 map restriction will soon not apply.

I have been thinking long & hard about the gameplay of this map, and how to make it more in sync with the theme.

I would like to keep the country bonuses, since that way the map could start with a random drop.

However, that means I need to make more room for additional rules, if I want to introduce something like "passenger" territories, or other such fancy stuff.

Another option would be to make the gameplay a bit like Route 66. Like, adding big cities for bonuses.

I'm open for all suggestions about the gameplay. Only, I want to keep the current geography or as close as possible, and the current rail lines.

[Industrial Helix]

Well, speaking from experience of having 13 Colonies in Beta and waiting to pursue South Africa, I'd say that you ought to be aware that Beta is a much more lengthy process than anticipated. But once Nordic is through, this map should be well on its way.

From a gameplay perspective, and I mean this as just another foundry poster and my comments aren't indicative of whether or not the map will progress nor are they indicative of any of the other moderators opinions.

Anyway, I think you've got a potential map to blend the successes of the rail maps with the feeling and dynamic of pre-wwi Europe (like in terms of empires, ect.). The biggest concern I have is that the map becomes a section of Europe 1914 with a rail line. Somehow you've got to emphasize the rail more than the individual country bonuses.

Maybe, include various national lines?

Or you could try making a stipulation that a country bonus is only good if you have the rails stations in it?

I'm not sure what you'd like to do, but you're right... it's probably about time to start thinking about where this map is headed and how its going to develop.

[natty dread]

Yes... good ideas there IH. I already have some country rail lines... see the latest version on pg1, there's Strasbourg-Milan, Vienna-Berlin and Budapest-Belgrade.

I could extend the Milan line to Calabria... Extend Berlin to Netherlands... Add a line from Paris to Southern France.

Also the idea of requiring the rail stations to gain the country bonus is a good one... but perhaps a bit severe... how about if holding the rail stations of a country increase the country bonus?

eg.
France +5
France w/ stations +7

Or something like that?

This is starting to get interesting...

To be honest, the more I think about "passengers" as resources, the more I feel it just doesn't work... I mean, there was no travel agencies as such at the time. So why would the players be competing for transporting passengers? Although this also poses the question, why do the players want the OE line...

Perhaps each player is a train mogul, and starts at a side station. If I can manage to add 8 side stations sufficiently distant to each other...

Will have to think on this.

and ps. yes, I do intend to wait until Nordic is quenched before submitting the desing brief for this.

[Industrial Helix]

Well, obviously passengers were taking the trains because there were so many of them. They wouldn't exist without people buying tickets. Sure, there weren't any travel agencies at the time, but that doesn't mean people werent taking trips. It might be worth a little research on that.

[natty dread]

Yes, but then again... all of the territories have "passengers", in a way.

So one could think of the countries as the "passenger resources", so when you hold a whole country you have a monopoly to the passenger resources of that country, thus you get a bonus. When you hold a country and all train stations in it, you have a stronger monopoly: passengers and transportation. Thus you get a bigger bonus. It'd make sense to me.

So I'm thinking I'm going to abandon "passenger territories", instead add more train lines so that each country has at least 1 station.

These stations would then increase the country bonus. I'd cut the current country boni in half approximately, and then by holding a country & all stations in it, you'd get the full bonus.

Each OE station would additionally get a +1 autodeploy. Or maybe +2.

Then there's of course the objective of holding all OE stations.

Hmm, this could already have something... I think it could work...

edit: also, holding only the train stations of a country could also give a bonus... So it'd be small bonus for either the country or the rail stations, and a big bonus for both.

[Industrial Helix]

Yes, but then again... all of the territories have "passengers", in a way.

So one could think of the countries as the "passenger resources", so when you hold a whole country you have a monopoly to the passenger resources of that country, thus you get a bonus. When you hold a country and all train stations in it, you have a stronger monopoly: passengers and transportation. Thus you get a bigger bonus. It'd make sense to me.

This is a strong idea, I think. Granted, it would just be words in the instructions but portraying the struggle on the map as a struggle of monopoly and pre-1914 capitalism I think that you could have an even stronger theme and concept.

If this were the route you chose to pursue, perhaps players could have at their hands something like rail strikes, socialists and anarchists.

I think it would definitely go a long way to capturing the essence of the times.

[natty dread]

Yes... I think this is starting to shape up.

So as a note for myself I'm going to list all changes here so I can just read the list when I resume work on the map:

Name changes:
Bremen -> Hannover
Mecklenburg -> Brandenburg
Benelux -> Low Countries

Additional stations:
Amsterdam (in Netherlands, connects to Berlin)
Reggio di Calabria (in Calabria, connects to Milan)
Bordeaux (in Aquitane, connects to Paris)

possibly also Thessalonica in greece, connecting to Constantinople (and maybe Belgrade... I have to check if there's a rail line between Belgrade and Thessalonica).

[TaCktiX]

One gripe before you post out the next version: I hate both titles. They look like something I'd see on an advertisement for Oxyclean or ShamWOW. Perhaps something a little more railroad-y?

[natty dread]

One gripe before you post out the next version: I hate both titles. They look like something I'd see on an advertisement for Oxyclean or ShamWOW. Perhaps something a little more railroad-y?

Really? I used this as my inspiration:

[Coleman]

Greatest rail map ever? I think so.

[natty dread]

Oh Coleman, you flatter me so... Let's just hope Nordic goes to quench soon so I can get working on this.

Here's my thoughts on the bonus structure...

France, will have 2 stations (Paris & Bourdeaux) land bonus: +3, with stations +5
Italy, will have 2 stations (Milan & Reggio di Calabria) land bonus: +2, with stations +4
Low Countries (Benelux) will have 1 station (Amsterdam) land bonus: +2, with station +3
Germany, has 3 stations (Berlin, Strasbourg, Münich) land bonus: +5, with stations +8
Austro-Hungary, has 3 stations (Vienna, Budapest; Belgrade shared with Servia&MN) land bonus: +7 with stations +10
Switzerland, no stations, land bonus +1
Servia & M.N, has 1 station (Belgrade, shared with Austro-Hungary) land bonus: +1, with belgrade: +2
Romania, has 1 station (Bucharest) land bonus: +1, with bucharest: +2
Ottoman, will have 3 stations (Varna, Constantinople, Thessalonica) land bonus: +3, with stations: +6

I'm yet unsure if I should connect Thessalonica with Belgrade.. Have to do more research. It would create a nice loop to the rail, making the gameplay less linear.

Also, how about a bonus for the termini (Paris & Constantinople)? I'm thinking something like hold both for +2.

Also I'll definitely give the OE stations a +2 autodeploy.

I may have to extend the canvas and put the legend to the lower edge, though... to make sure I can fit in all additional rules & bonuses.


edit: I took a peek at the layered file of this map... It looks like I'll have to redraw the whole thing... almost, anyway... there's just lots of stuff that's made, well... wrong. Anyway, this is still at draft stage, and I've gathered lots of experience on graphics work since I last worked on this map... I think I'll be able to make something pretty nice out of this once I start working on it again.

[natty dread]

Was bored... Couldn't keep myself from working on this... made this:

Click image to enlarge.

Notice I got rid of army circles. Is better without, I think.

[ender516]

Oh, I like this look. Very clear. Does it pass colourblind tests? (Hmm, you have darker borders around the "Land Monopolies", so maybe it doesn't matter so much.)

If you are using English spellings from that era, perhaps "Hanover" with one "n" would be more correct.

(And it's now 2010. )

[natty dread]

I'll keep that in mind... not much concentrating on the graphics yet. Probably won't be updating this again until Nordic is quenched... or who knows, I might get bored again

[The Bison King]

I feel like France and Italy should be able to attack each other, and that maybe France should be worth a little more. The idea seems pretty solid, and the map looks great.

[natty dread]

I feel like France and Italy should be able to attack each other

They can.

Also the land bonuses are low on purpose, it focuses the gameplay more on the railways.

France gets +3 if you only hold the land area, but when you hold both train stations on it you get +5 and another +2 autodeployed on paris station... Which brings the total bonus to 7 troops.

Anyway, there will be time enough to work on the bonuses in the gameplay shop.

[army of nobunaga]

another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.