Crime Should be Illegal!

[Nobunaga]

President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.

... Is it me... or is there some obvious contradiction going on here? Making it a crime to be participating in criminal activity? ... Being upset by making crime illegal.... I'm confused.

...

(link): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281

... (I get the whole state vs federal thing)

[bradleybadly]

"Civil rights activists have said the bill would lead to racial profiling and deter Hispanics from reporting crimes."

Yes, because the fact that these people have already committed crime by breaking immigration law should not be reported.

[thegreekdog]

This is my last post for a while (going on vacation... will have sitters... won't be me)... anyway...

I'm one of those people that thinks all immigration should be legal, so I don't agree with the law. But, what's funny is, I don't agree with the federal law making undocumented immigration illegal. So when President Obama comes out and says this stuff I have a few thoughts:

(1) President Obama should work with Congress to pass a law making all immigration legal; or
(2) President Obama should work with ICE and DHS to enforce existing immigration laws (though I disagree with those laws); or
(3) President Obama should shut up because he's basically saying, "The federal government has laws against illegal immigration, but we don't enforce these laws. But to gain political points with Hispanic Americans, I'm going to pretend that the federal government doesn't have a law and that Arizona is creating an entirely new and different law and legal system to deal with illegal immigration which is wrong."

I get the idea that this is racial profiling. What I don't get is how it is any more racial profiling than the current federal law which the president is supposed to uphold and enforce. I just don't get it.

[GabonX]

President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.

... Is it me... or is there some obvious contradiction going on here? Making it a crime to be participating in criminal activity? ... Being upset by making crime illegal.... I'm confused.

...

(link): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281

... (I get the whole state vs federal thing)

State law is different from Federal law. You can be tried for the same act in both a Federal court and a State court if that one act broke both Federal an State statutes.

What's more is that there was recently a case where a state tried to enforce Federal immigration laws and the judge threw the case out on the grounds that the State did not have authority to enforce Federal laws...

[Nobunaga]

President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.

... Is it me... or is there some obvious contradiction going on here? Making it a crime to be participating in criminal activity? ... Being upset by making crime illegal.... I'm confused.

...

(link): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281

... (I get the whole state vs federal thing)

State law is different from Federal law. You can be tried for the same act in both a Federal court and a State court if that one act broke both Federal an State statutes.

What's more is that there was recently a case where a state tried to enforce Federal immigration laws and the judge threw the case out on the grounds that the State did not have authority to enforce Federal laws...

... Thus the obvious need for the state law.

...

[Woodruff]

President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.
... Is it me... or is there some obvious contradiction going on here? Making it a crime to be participating in criminal activity? ... Being upset by making crime illegal.... I'm confused.
...
(link): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281
... (I get the whole state vs federal thing)

1) I don't understand the point of the Arizona law.
2) I don't understand why Obama cares about it.

[Woodruff]

President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.

... Is it me... or is there some obvious contradiction going on here? Making it a crime to be participating in criminal activity? ... Being upset by making crime illegal.... I'm confused.

...

(link): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281

... (I get the whole state vs federal thing)

State law is different from Federal law. You can be tried for the same act in both a Federal court and a State court if that one act broke both Federal an State statutes.

What's more is that there was recently a case where a state tried to enforce Federal immigration laws and the judge threw the case out on the grounds that the State did not have authority to enforce Federal laws...

Ok, that seems thoroughly dumb to me. (Though it answers my #1 question on the subject, if true.)

[jimboston]

How dare Arizona make it illegal to commit a crime. They must be racist.

[2dimes]

Where did all the "anti national ID" people go? What's their take on this?

Is Obama worried some birther cop in Arizona will kick him out of the country?

[Woodruff]

Where did all the "anti national ID" people go? What's their take on this?

Is Obama worried some birther cop in Arizona will kick him out of the country?

More like "some birther State Representative in Arizona" (Cecil Ash). I wish I were kidding.

[PLAYER57832]

President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.
... Is it me... or is there some obvious contradiction going on here? Making it a crime to be participating in criminal activity? ... Being upset by making crime illegal.... I'm confused.
...
(link): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281
... (I get the whole state vs federal thing)

1) I don't understand the point of the Arizona law.
2) I don't understand why Obama cares about it.

The law specified that all law enforcement officials have the right to demand that anyone show proof of citizenship, their right to be in Arizona. If they merely suspect someone might be not be a citizen, they can demand proof and, should the person not provide it immediately (or should the officer question that proof), they can lock the individual up.

Now, I believe you are paranoid enough to see quite a few problems here. It means that just walking around without ID can effectively be considered a crime. Seems more like apartheid Union of South Africa than US of A.

Beyond that, a lot of objections come from law enforcment officials themselves. Unlike the right wing, they don't tend to see presence of illegals as major problems for community safety. They really don't have the time, education OR resources to go after folks who only want to work and live here peacefully. Quite the opposite. Often times Law enforcement officials need to be able to call on illegal aliens to report and bear witness to crimes that cause real immediate threat and danger to their communities.

This becomes Obama's problem becuase it is a direct challenge to the divisions between state and federal rules.

[PLAYER57832]

Where did all the "anti national ID" people go? What's their take on this?

Is Obama worried some birther cop in Arizona will kick him out of the country?

More like "some birther State Representative in Arizona" (Cecil Ash). I wish I were kidding.

I did not even think about this aspect!

[PLAYER57832]

I get the idea that this is racial profiling. What I don't get is how it is any more racial profiling than the current federal law which the president is supposed to uphold and enforce. I just don't get it.

Becuase this law basically means that people have to carry proof of citizenship on them. I don't know about you, but I don't tend to carry my passport with me. So, a police officer could haul me in. Granted, I would show proof before long, but it could be a very big hassle, even for many citizens.

[Woodruff]

I get the idea that this is racial profiling. What I don't get is how it is any more racial profiling than the current federal law which the president is supposed to uphold and enforce. I just don't get it.

Becuase this law basically means that people have to carry proof of citizenship on them. I don't know about you, but I don't tend to carry my passport with me. So, a police officer could haul me in. Granted, I would show proof before long, but it could be a very big hassle, even for many citizens.

Does it require a PASSPORT, or simply some form of government-produced ID (as in driver's license)? Not that that changes the point for the anti-national-ID crowd, but it does minimize the difficulties involved.

[MeDeFe]

Could someone enlighten me about the difference between a state crime and a federal crime?

[Neoteny]

Could someone enlighten me about the difference between a state crime and a federal crime?

Punishments for federal crimes are given by communists. State crimes are punished by patriots. Also, truth serum and military tribunal.

[SultanOfSurreal]

in this thread: a bunch of idiots who don't know what the f*ck they're talking about and who don't realize illegal immigration has never been a criminal offense in any jurisdiction before now, but rather a civil one

[spurgistan]

Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

[bradleybadly]

Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

[Phatscotty]

Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

#1 can we agree that Mexico is the foreign country that borders Arizona?

Do you know what a Mexican looks like? Maybe you have never seen one?

arizona is JUST TRYING TO KEEP THEIR SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS OPEN! seriously.....wtf is your problem with that?

The only alternative is for Arizona to be completely shut down. At that point, you are going to be hearing a few gun-shots. Yes, that's where it's at....

[Frigidus]

Could someone enlighten me about the difference between a state crime and a federal crime?

A state crime might not be a crime in other parts of the country, but federal crimes are universal. Or did you mean something more specific?

[Phatscotty]

in this thread: a bunch of idiots who don't know what the f*ck they're talking about and who don't realize illegal immigration has never been a criminal offense in any jurisdiction before now, but rather a civil one

unfortunately, it's survival time for Arizona. They refuse to be bankrupted in the name of phony ass racial discrimination that is going to like end the world or something according to you guys. people who support ILLEGAL's are guilty of aiding and abetting, while also enabling criminals.

[PLAYER57832]

The only alternative is for Arizona to be completely shut down. At that point, you are going to be hearing a few gun-shots. Yes, that's where it's at....

Only if you insist on believing just very right wing sources.

FACT: Arizona does have a fiscal problem. HOWEVER, what these folks deny is that they brought this on, they wanted all those "illegal aliens" to provide cheap labor and for years encouraged them to come. Now that the housing boom has bust and there is no longer such a need for overly cheap labor, the fat cats are more than happy to throw the workers out.

The REAL problem here is not and never has been illegal workers, it is employers who hire these illegal aliens in order to, among other things, avoid paying the taxes that would support the state. Also, while illegal workers DO PAY TAXES, legal workers do pay more. However, this is not the choice of those hired illegally, it is the choice of their employers. Ask any illegal alien and almost all would be happy to pay more taxes if they could just stay here.

SO, basically, this is about employers who don't want to pay for their workers.... again, NOT the workers.

I say, "you made your bed, LAY IN IT!".

[Nobunaga]

The only alternative is for Arizona to be completely shut down. At that point, you are going to be hearing a few gun-shots. Yes, that's where it's at....

Only if you insist on believing just very right wing sources.

FACT: Arizona does have a fiscal problem. HOWEVER, what these folks deny is that they brought this on, they wanted all those "illegal aliens" to provide cheap labor and for years encouraged them to come. Now that the housing boom has bust and there is no longer such a need for overly cheap labor, the fat cats are more than happy to throw the workers out.

The REAL problem here is not and never has been illegal workers, it is employers who hire these illegal aliens in order to, among other things, avoid paying the taxes that would support the state. Also, while illegal workers DO PAY TAXES, legal workers do pay more. However, this is not the choice of those hired illegally, it is the choice of their employers. Ask any illegal alien and almost all would be happy to pay more taxes if they could just stay here.

SO, basically, this is about employers who don't want to pay for their workers.... again, NOT the workers.

I say, "you made your bed, LAY IN IT!".

... Let me follow your stream of logic here...

... Employers of illegals (aka "fat cats") hired illegals, knowing they were hiring criminals, to save money.

... (Non-illegal) labor has become cheaper / or unecessary in the same quanity as pre-economic bust. The illegals are no longer needed in the same numbers as before.

... Thus, the police should have no right to check for citizenship under state law.


... I know I'm missing something. Fill in the gaps for me, eh.

...

[PLAYER57832]

The only alternative is for Arizona to be completely shut down. At that point, you are going to be hearing a few gun-shots. Yes, that's where it's at....

Only if you insist on believing just very right wing sources.

FACT: Arizona does have a fiscal problem. HOWEVER, what these folks deny is that they brought this on, they wanted all those "illegal aliens" to provide cheap labor and for years encouraged them to come. Now that the housing boom has bust and there is no longer such a need for overly cheap labor, the fat cats are more than happy to throw the workers out.

The REAL problem here is not and never has been illegal workers, it is employers who hire these illegal aliens in order to, among other things, avoid paying the taxes that would support the state. Also, while illegal workers DO PAY TAXES, legal workers do pay more. However, this is not the choice of those hired illegally, it is the choice of their employers. Ask any illegal alien and almost all would be happy to pay more taxes if they could just stay here.

SO, basically, this is about employers who don't want to pay for their workers.... again, NOT the workers.

I say, "you made your bed, LAY IN IT!".

... Let me follow your stream of logic here...

... Employers of illegals (aka "fat cats") hired illegals, knowing they were hiring criminals, to save money.

... (Non-illegal) labor has become cheaper / or unecessary in the same quanity as pre-economic bust. The illegals are no longer needed in the same numbers as before.

... Thus, the police should have no right to check for citizenship under state law.


... I know I'm missing something. Fill in the gaps for me, eh.

...

The first gap is that this is going to harm everyone. You may be a citizen, but if you cannot provide proof that the local police will accept, then you are SOL, until you can prove you are a citizen. Essentially, everyone is now required to carry citizenship papers.

The second gap is that the blame is being put on the workers, rather than the employers who benefitted so highly from hiring these people. What makes this particularly hypocritical is that many of the very people who bvenefitted so heavily are those most vocal about "the problem" of the people they themselves brought here.

This law puts this into a criminal issue, instead of the economic and civil issue it really is. When you create laws that only target symptoms and ignore root causes, you solve nothing. In fact, this will almost certainly INCREASE crime, not reduce it, which is one big reason most law enforcement groups oppose this law, even though they will, of course, enforce it (and I don't just mean the reclassification of status as a criminal offense, I mean other, real crimes).