sad Days for america

[Evil Semp]

Now, if it could be shown that these boys did typically wear these shirts and bandanas (by say...wearing them maybe a couple of times per month or so), then no they shouldn't be sent home because the situation is then a significantly different one.

So the ones who claim to be offended, (before or after the fact doesn't matter) should prove that the are offended by these shirts all the time, just like those kids have to prove that they typically wear those shirts.


So my question is what day can the wear American flag shirts?


Would they be able to wear it on Canadian Independence day? On St Patricks day? Or any other national holiday from another country.

And this is just a warning for you fathers out there. Don't wake up tomorrow and put on the "Worlds Greatest Dad" t-shirt you received on Fathers day last year, for tomorrow is Mothers Day.

[PLAYER57832]

As I've stated, I don't believe there was any "complaining about" or "making threats about" at the time the principal took the action he did. Some students have stated they were offended by it after the fact, in speaking with reporters, but from everything I've read on the issue, the principal acted on his own judgement and without prompting by complaintants. So there wouldn't have been anyone complaining or making threats TO send home. Otherwise, I agree with you...those making threats in particular should have been sent home (possibly suspended, depending on prior history).

The original, San Francisco, news video that I saw specifically said that the boys wore their t-shirts, that their friends teased them, but it was no big deal, except some other students complained that the t-shirts were offensive. The principals response to those complaints was to ask the one boy to remove his bandanas (which he did) and to ask them all to turn their shirts inside out. That they refused.

If there were no complaints or other negative discussion, then the principal could not have been truly worried about violence or any other "incident".

[bradleybadly]

some people can admit when they were wrong.

and then we have Woody.

I've admitted to being wrong in these fora more often than you as well, bradley. Guaranteed.

[Phatscotty]

Unfortunately Woodruff, I've received a private message from the mods for this thread. It's not a warning, but they don't want this thing to escalate because they want to avoid locking it down.

I'm glad the moderators are trying to avoid locking the thread, because I think it's an important one.

Once again, you didn't deserve to have a "f*ck you" reference thrown against you, but you did deserve to be refuted by a variety of posters here.

I'm ok with being "refuted"...quite frankly, I very much enjoy it. However, some in this thread have gone far beyond "refutation".

See, we can all be gentlemen

[Phatscotty]

This thread just keeps getting more bizarre. I can't remember a time where I agreed with bk barunt, bradley, player, and john9blue all at the same time.

me too

[Army of GOD]

Now, if it could be shown that these boys did typically wear these shirts and bandanas (by say...wearing them maybe a couple of times per month or so), then no they shouldn't be sent home because the situation is then a significantly different one.

So the ones who claim to be offended, (before or after the fact doesn't matter) should prove that the are offended by these shirts all the time, just like those kids have to prove that they typically wear those shirts.


So my question is what day can the wear American flag shirts?


Would they be able to wear it on Canadian Independence day? On St Patricks day? Or any other national holiday from another country.

And this is just a warning for you fathers out there. Don't wake up tomorrow and put on the "Worlds Greatest Dad" t-shirt you received on Fathers day last year, for tomorrow is Mothers Day.

That has nothing to do with it. What I'm gathering from this is that the kids intentionally agreed before this date to wear the clothes that they did (it's almost OBVIOUS to me, the fact that they all wore so much of it). They believed that they'd either (at most) start a fight or (at least) protest something. It doesn't matter what their intention was, because the Vice-Principal was receiving complaints by other people. The VP felt like a fight could've started, so he asked the boys to wear their shirts inside-out or just change (what else could he have done, asked the people to not get offended?). They refused. THAT'S why they got in trouble. This type of thing would only happen in school, were freedoms can and should (to an extent) be lessened for the safety of the majority in the school.

[targetman377]

Now, if it could be shown that these boys did typically wear these shirts and bandanas (by say...wearing them maybe a couple of times per month or so), then no they shouldn't be sent home because the situation is then a significantly different one.

So the ones who claim to be offended, (before or after the fact doesn't matter) should prove that the are offended by these shirts all the time, just like those kids have to prove that they typically wear those shirts.


So my question is what day can the wear American flag shirts?


Would they be able to wear it on Canadian Independence day? On St Patricks day? Or any other national holiday from another country.

And this is just a warning for you fathers out there. Don't wake up tomorrow and put on the "Worlds Greatest Dad" t-shirt you received on Fathers day last year, for tomorrow is Mothers Day.

That has nothing to do with it. What I'm gathering from this is that the kids intentionally agreed before this date to wear the clothes that they did (it's almost OBVIOUS to me, the fact that they all wore so much of it). They believed that they'd either (at most) start a fight or (at least) protest something. It doesn't matter what their intention was, because the Vice-Principal was receiving complaints by other people. The VP felt like a fight could've started, so he asked the boys to wear their shirts inside-out or just change (what else could he have done, asked the people to not get offended?). They refused. THAT'S why they got in trouble. This type of thing would only happen in school, were freedoms can and should (to an extent) be lessened for the safety of the majority in the school.

if the principle sent them home it would be for there safty not the majority THEY ARE 5 kids not the majority. and who cares if they planed it?

the problem with your argument falls apart here: on may 5th i go to school ( not being mexican) I were no special clothes. and everyone is waving Mexican flags around me. (not wearing any Mexican clothes i feel threatened i complain to the principal. Is the Principal supposed to send halfe the school home because i feel threatened and offended?

[PLAYER57832]

Now, if it could be shown that these boys did typically wear these shirts and bandanas (by say...wearing them maybe a couple of times per month or so), then no they shouldn't be sent home because the situation is then a significantly different one.

So the ones who claim to be offended, (before or after the fact doesn't matter) should prove that the are offended by these shirts all the time, just like those kids have to prove that they typically wear those shirts.


So my question is what day can the wear American flag shirts?


Would they be able to wear it on Canadian Independence day? On St Patricks day? Or any other national holiday from another country.

And this is just a warning for you fathers out there. Don't wake up tomorrow and put on the "Worlds Greatest Dad" t-shirt you received on Fathers day last year, for tomorrow is Mothers Day.

That has nothing to do with it. What I'm gathering from this is that the kids intentionally agreed before this date to wear the clothes that they did (it's almost OBVIOUS to me, the fact that they all wore so much of it). They believed that they'd either (at most) start a fight or (at least) protest something. It doesn't matter what their intention was, because the Vice-Principal was receiving complaints by other people. The VP felt like a fight could've started, so he asked the boys to wear their shirts inside-out or just change (what else could he have done, asked the people to not get offended?). They refused. THAT'S why they got in trouble. This type of thing would only happen in school, were freedoms can and should (to an extent) be lessened for the safety of the majority in the school.

Sorry, but if wearing an American flag is reason to get in a fight, then the ones wearing the flag (unless they do other things) should not be the ones sent home.

Kids make "statements". If they are not harmful/against rules (this was not), then you let it go. You ignore it and life goes on. This principle effectively told the entire student body that wearing an American flag was offensive, and was reason to be upset. He did not ameliate problems, he compounded them.

Frankly, I would say he over-reacted regardless of what the shirts said, unless they really were clear violations of the rules already established. If not, the worst he should do is tell the students, politely, not to wear them again and change the rules for the future. That he did this regarding an American flag is pretty offensive, hispanic culture day or not.

[Army of GOD]

Now, if it could be shown that these boys did typically wear these shirts and bandanas (by say...wearing them maybe a couple of times per month or so), then no they shouldn't be sent home because the situation is then a significantly different one.

So the ones who claim to be offended, (before or after the fact doesn't matter) should prove that the are offended by these shirts all the time, just like those kids have to prove that they typically wear those shirts.


So my question is what day can the wear American flag shirts?


Would they be able to wear it on Canadian Independence day? On St Patricks day? Or any other national holiday from another country.

And this is just a warning for you fathers out there. Don't wake up tomorrow and put on the "Worlds Greatest Dad" t-shirt you received on Fathers day last year, for tomorrow is Mothers Day.

That has nothing to do with it. What I'm gathering from this is that the kids intentionally agreed before this date to wear the clothes that they did (it's almost OBVIOUS to me, the fact that they all wore so much of it). They believed that they'd either (at most) start a fight or (at least) protest something. It doesn't matter what their intention was, because the Vice-Principal was receiving complaints by other people. The VP felt like a fight could've started, so he asked the boys to wear their shirts inside-out or just change (what else could he have done, asked the people to not get offended?). They refused. THAT'S why they got in trouble. This type of thing would only happen in school, were freedoms can and should (to an extent) be lessened for the safety of the majority in the school.

if the principle sent them home it would be for there safty not the majority THEY ARE 5 kids not the majority. and who cares if they planed it?

the problem with your argument falls apart here: on may 5th i go to school ( not being mexican) I were no special clothes. and everyone is waving Mexican flags around me. (not wearing any Mexican clothes i feel threatened i complain to the principal. Is the Principal supposed to send halfe the school home because i feel threatened and offended?

(I would hope) If you were to complain to the Principal, then he'd ask the flag-wavers to calm down. If they don't, that is when disciplinary measures would occur. To me, the kids weren't sent home because of the clothes they wore, they were sent home because they said "no" when asked to do something about them.

Sorry, but if wearing an American flag is reason to get in a fight, then the ones wearing the flag (unless they do other things) should not be the ones sent home.

Kids make "statements". If they are not harmful/against rules (this was not), then you let it go. You ignore it and life goes on. This principle effectively told the entire student body that wearing an American flag was offensive, and was reason to be upset. He did not ameliate problems, he compounded them.

Frankly, I would say he over-reacted regardless of what the shirts said, unless they really were clear violations of the rules already established. If not, the worst he should do is tell the students, politely, not to wear them again and change the rules for the future. That he did this regarding an American flag is pretty offensive, hispanic culture day or not.

As I said before, they weren't sent home because of what they were wearing, they were sent home because they refused (they wanted to be bad-asses. They forgot that they were in High School and no on cares about that). When there's a problem in a school, it'd be my guess that the Principal and VP would try to assuage the situation by affecting the least amount of people in the smallest way. Either they ask 5 kids to change their attire or ask x many people to not get offended. The latter doesn't make sense, so they did the former. They didn't want to do a little thing, got sent home for it, parents flip out and make a big deal.

[Evil Semp]

Now, if it could be shown that these boys did typically wear these shirts and bandanas (by say...wearing them maybe a couple of times per month or so), then no they shouldn't be sent home because the situation is then a significantly different one.

So the ones who claim to be offended, (before or after the fact doesn't matter) should prove that the are offended by these shirts all the time, just like those kids have to prove that they typically wear those shirts.


So my question is what day can the wear American flag shirts?


Would they be able to wear it on Canadian Independence day? On St Patricks day? Or any other national holiday from another country.

And this is just a warning for you fathers out there. Don't wake up tomorrow and put on the "Worlds Greatest Dad" t-shirt you received on Fathers day last year, for tomorrow is Mothers Day.

That has nothing to do with it. What I'm gathering from this is that the kids intentionally agreed before this date to wear the clothes that they did (it's almost OBVIOUS to me, the fact that they all wore so much of it). They believed that they'd either (at most) start a fight or (at least) protest something. It doesn't matter what their intention was, because the Vice-Principal was receiving complaints by other people. The VP felt like a fight could've started, so he asked the boys to wear their shirts inside-out or just change (what else could he have done, asked the people to not get offended?). They refused. THAT'S why they got in trouble. This type of thing would only happen in school, were freedoms can and should (to an extent) be lessened for the safety of the majority in the school.

I feel it has everything to do with it. If it was the 4th of July, Veterans Day or Memorial Day and the Hispanics wore the flag of their country on a shirt and were asked to remove it, the ACLU and all the other organizations like them would be yelling DISCRIMINATION.

[Army of GOD]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

[targetman377]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

so if i am offended by people saying "the" are you going to ban it in school?

[PLAYER57832]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Sorry, but this is still the U.S.A. If you, or anyone else is offended by displays of the U.S.A flag, then THEY need to leave, not ask anyone else to accomodate them.

[Army of GOD]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

so if i am offended by people saying "the" are you going to ban it in school?

No, because this isn't about "banning" the American flag. If a Principal thinks you are legitimately offended by it, then the people who are using it should be asked to stop.

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Sorry, but this is still the U.S.A. If you, or anyone else is offended by displays of the U.S.A flag, then THEY need to leave, not ask anyone else to accomodate them.

It's not the flag that was offensive, it's how it was being used. Besides, the people that were offended were in High School, not even legal adults.

[Evil Semp]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Isn't that taking away freedom of speech?

[Army of GOD]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Isn't that taking away freedom of speech?

For the same reason saying "F*** you" isn't allowed in schools.

[jay_a2j]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Isn't that taking away freedom of speech?

For the same reason saying "F*** you" isn't allowed in schools.

Are we comparing saying "F- you" to wearing shirts with flags on them? Or did I miss something? How bout if I get offended that you got offended? Then you can't get offended to begin with because that would offend me.

[targetman377]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

so if i am offended by people saying "the" are you going to ban it in school?

No, because this isn't about "banning" the American flag. If a Principal thinks you are legitimately offended by it, then the people who are using it should be asked to stop.

so the people should be asked to stop using "the" dont you see how rediculise this is getting soon we cant do anything, talk, look to each other in fear of Offending people. What needs to be done IS people need to grow some skin and stop being so dam sensitive about everything

[Woodruff]

As I've stated, I don't believe there was any "complaining about" or "making threats about" at the time the principal took the action he did. Some students have stated they were offended by it after the fact, in speaking with reporters, but from everything I've read on the issue, the principal acted on his own judgement and without prompting by complaintants. So there wouldn't have been anyone complaining or making threats TO send home. Otherwise, I agree with you...those making threats in particular should have been sent home (possibly suspended, depending on prior history).

The original, San Francisco, news video that I saw specifically said that the boys wore their t-shirts, that their friends teased them, but it was no big deal, except some other students complained that the t-shirts were offensive. The principals response to those complaints was to ask the one boy to remove his bandanas (which he did) and to ask them all to turn their shirts inside out. That they refused.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it unlikely that their friends would have been the ones to complain to the principal.

If there were no complaints or other negative discussion, then the principal could not have been truly worried about violence or any other "incident".

Because violence never just springs up in schools without discussion with the principal?

[Woodruff]

This thread just keeps getting more bizarre. I can't remember a time where I agreed with bk barunt, bradley, player, and john9blue all at the same time.

I think this thread stands as a testament to how resistant Woody is to admitting his mistakes.

I feel confident in stating that I have admitted to errors in these fora more often than john9blue has. Though I won't guarantee that one.

I feel it has everything to do with it. If it was the 4th of July, Veterans Day or Memorial Day and the Hispanics wore the flag of their country on a shirt and were asked to remove it, the ACLU and all the other organizations like them would be yelling DISCRIMINATION.

You do realize that the ACLU is not an anti-American organization, right?

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Isn't that taking away freedom of speech?

The reality is that freedom of speech hardly exists in high schools, to be honest.

What needs to be done IS people need to grow some skin and stop being so dam sensitive about everything

Certainly I agree with this, and I'm quite confident that Army of God does, as well. I'm sure the principal of that school would too, because most adults would see things that way. However, just because people should be doing a thing does not mean that thing will be done, sadly, and particularly when you're talking about young people. And as the principal, again...he must worry about what may happen when it involves the safety of some portion of his students.

[Army of GOD]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Isn't that taking away freedom of speech?

For the same reason saying "F*** you" isn't allowed in schools.

Are we comparing saying "F- you" to wearing shirts with flags on them? Or did I miss something? How bout if I get offended that you got offended? Then you can't get offended to begin with because that would offend me.

See, that makes no sense. While fine, maybe you are offended by it, if you were to whine to a Principal about in in High School, he'd tell you to "get your panties out of a wad".

What needs to be done IS people need to grow some skin and stop being so dam sensitive about everything

Certainly I agree with this, and I'm quite confident that Army of God does, as well. I'm sure the principal of that school would too, because most adults would see things that way. However, just because people should be doing a thing does not mean that thing will be done, sadly, and particularly when you're talking about young people. And as the principal, again...he must worry about what may happen when it involves the safety of some portion of his students.

I do agree, but then again these are High School students and we don't know the whole story.

[targetman377]

What needs to be done IS people need to grow some skin and stop being so dam sensitive about everything

Certainly I agree with this, and I'm quite confident that Army of God does, as well. I'm sure the principal of that school would too, because most adults would see things that way. However, just because people should be doing a thing does not mean that thing will be done, sadly, and particularly when you're talking about young people. And as the principal, again...he must worry about what may happen when it involves the safety of some portion of his students.

I do agree, but then again these are High School students and we don't know the whole story.

A principal if he did send them home for there safety should have something to stand on besides it being offensive. and the people who where plan on using violence then they should be punished.

There is NO OTHER COUNTRY in the world that would send students home for wearing the nations colors and showing pride in there country. the day does not matter.


if you agree with the principal you are oking this too. On every holiday in the christian calender if an atheist shows up to school that says god sucks and is not real all . now that would ligetly offend me but sense it does should i really diced what that student has the right to wear all in the name of not offending me?

[Army of GOD]

What needs to be done IS people need to grow some skin and stop being so dam sensitive about everything

Certainly I agree with this, and I'm quite confident that Army of God does, as well. I'm sure the principal of that school would too, because most adults would see things that way. However, just because people should be doing a thing does not mean that thing will be done, sadly, and particularly when you're talking about young people. And as the principal, again...he must worry about what may happen when it involves the safety of some portion of his students.

I do agree, but then again these are High School students and we don't know the whole story.

A principal if he did send them home for there safety should have something to stand on besides it being offensive. and the people who where plan on using violence then they should be punished.

There is NO OTHER COUNTRY in the world that would send students home for wearing the nations colors and showing pride in there country. the day does not matter.


if you agree with the principal you are oking this too. On every holiday in the christian calender if an atheist shows up to school that says god sucks and is not real all . now that would ligetly offend me but sense it does should i really diced what that student has the right to wear all in the name of not offending me?

He did have something else to stand on: the fact that he believed violence was going to break out.

I don't know if I would say that, but we shouldn't compare ourselves to other countries anyway. We aren't like any "other country", we're the United States.

I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with the Principal, because I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. All I'm saying is that they weren't kicked out for wearing clothes with the flag on them, they were kicked out because they refused to follow what the Principal asked them to do.

[targetman377]

What needs to be done IS people need to grow some skin and stop being so dam sensitive about everything

Certainly I agree with this, and I'm quite confident that Army of God does, as well. I'm sure the principal of that school would too, because most adults would see things that way. However, just because people should be doing a thing does not mean that thing will be done, sadly, and particularly when you're talking about young people. And as the principal, again...he must worry about what may happen when it involves the safety of some portion of his students.

I do agree, but then again these are High School students and we don't know the whole story.

A principal if he did send them home for there safety should have something to stand on besides it being offensive. and the people who where plan on using violence then they should be punished.

There is NO OTHER COUNTRY in the world that would send students home for wearing the nations colors and showing pride in there country. the day does not matter.


if you agree with the principal you are oking this too. On every holiday in the christian calender if an atheist shows up to school that says god sucks and is not real all . now that would ligetly offend me but sense it does should i really diced what that student has the right to wear all in the name of not offending me?

He did have something else to stand on: the fact that he believed violence was going to break out.

I don't know if I would say that, but we shouldn't compare ourselves to other countries anyway. We aren't like any "other country", we're the United States.

I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with the Principal, because I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. All I'm saying is that they weren't kicked out for wearing clothes with the flag on them, they were kicked out because they refused to follow what the Principal asked them to do.

a: if violence was going to break out the kids that would attacked our patriot friends should be punished not the other way around

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

[Woodruff]

A principal if he did send them home for there safety should have something to stand on besides it being offensive. and the people who where plan on using violence then they should be punished.

I certainly agree that if the principal had knowledge that violence was actually being planned/seriously considered, those students should be looked at regarding potential punishment as well.