sad Days for america

[Woodruff]

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

We do?

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

Hmmm...typically, if a person in charge does tell a student to do something along those lines and the student refuses, being sent home is the normal course of action.

[Army of GOD]

a: if violence was going to break out the kids that would attacked our patriot friends should be punished not the other way around

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

But violence didn't, because the Principal handled the situation before any did. Besides, you have no idea if they instigated anything other than wearing the clothes.

Not at all. In my opinion, they weren't trying to be patriotic.

Normally it doesn't, but there are two things to considering: (i) It's High School (ii) There are always consequences to consider.

[targetman377]

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

We do?

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

Hmmm...typically, if a person in charge does tell a student to do something along those lines and the student refuses, being sent home is the normal course of action.

yes we do. in America you cant say USA IS THE BEST because you could offend something

[Phatscotty]

At least these kids have a friggin clue as to what is going on here. They can see and they definitely hear about the invasion from mexican immigrants from other kids.

Does anyone else here this this is not the normal hispanic thought/saying by mexicans in California?

The mexican says...

This will be mexico's land soon

[Woodruff]

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

We do?

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

Hmmm...typically, if a person in charge does tell a student to do something along those lines and the student refuses, being sent home is the normal course of action.

yes we do. in America you cant say USA IS THE BEST because you could offend something

1) I don't really understand the point of saying "USA IS THE BEST" without trying to specify what we are or are not the best at.
2) I don't think anyone would find it particularly offensive...although you may get laughed at or argued with.

[Woodruff]

At least these kids have a friggin clue as to what is going on here. They can see and they definitely hear about the invasion from mexican immigrants from other kids.

I don't particularly believe in a "Mexican invasion", but I do agree that these boys are to be commended for at least being activist. That's a good thing.

[PLAYER57832]

I agree with you, they would whine, but I stay on the same side. If people felt legitimately offended by it, then yes, they SHOULD remove it.

Sorry, but this is still the U.S.A. If you, or anyone else is offended by displays of the U.S.A flag, then THEY need to leave, not ask anyone else to accomodate them.

It's not the flag that was offensive, it's how it was being used. Besides, the people that were offended were in High School, not even legal adults.

Actually, I think it was the flag, itself. However, my reasoning has more to do with what I know is happening in California right now, both from personal experience and the fact that my mom taught in that school system not very long ago.

The question you have to ask is WHY? Why is it that wearing a U.S. flag on Cinco De Mayo would even possibly be contrued to be offensive to anyone in the U.S.? The reason is pretty simple. While we are a nation of immigrants. Each group of immigrants has experienced its share of anger. It was not so long ago that you would see help wanted signs followed by "no Irish need apply".. or "Polish"/"Italien"/ etc. Their kids went to school, learned English, had to balance 2 cultures, but mostly became something else -- American. I am not saying it was uniform or easy or entirely good. The old "melting" pot idea was never wholly correct, because groups don't just become uniform.

However, there is something different about this new group, hispanics and particularly Mexicans. First, their numbers are far greater. San Francisco used to be known for its China Town (as well as other ethnic neighborhoods), but the Chinese presence in the Bay area is quickly being eclipsed by the hispanic presence. It's almost mandatory that you speak spanish for many jobs any more in California. I support true bilingual education, as (I believe) they have in Florida.. where all kids learn 2 languages. In California, though that label too often means "a special program for Spanish speaking kids because they are not capable of learning English". Worse, often kids who are not even native Spanish speakers (there is more than one tongue spoken down south) get thrown into this mix, and without parental permission.

The truth is that a lot of very liberal, very tolerant people are just plain fed up. Its fine to come here, but don't come here and tell us that we have to learn your language, because you are not capable! Don't decry our culture and our heritages because they are not yours!

It IS complicated. Many hispanics look back and say "hey, the west WAS hispanic first!". They have a point. However, it is also true that a nation divided by language has inherent problems. I won't say it's impossibly to work, but it is much, much more difficult to have a nation that cannot fully communicate.

So, here we have a school and this school has a hispanic heritage day (not the Mexican Revolution, rather it is celebrating a particular battle against the French). Three boys decide "enough already!" They decide they will wear U.S. flags to school.

So far, its a protest, but a peaceful one. A reminder that "hey, this IS the U.S.".

Now, per new reports the boys were not giving out racial slurs or otherwise making statements like "you Mexicans go home" or "no Spanish in our school" or anything even close. As I said before, one guy actually is part Mexican. Perhaps irrelevant, perhaps not.

However, some other kids took it that way (again, per news reports). They decided this was racism and complained to the Vice principal. He had a choice. He could have told those kids who complained "this is cinco de mayo, but it is the U.S.... let it go". He could have done a lot of things. Instead, he told the boys to turn their shirts inside out so the offending U.S. flag would not be seen. When they refused, they got sent home.

I agree that if a principal asks you to do something, in school, and you don't, it needs to be followed up with further measures. BUT, in this case, the V.P. was just plain wrong. Even the high schoolers could see it was wrong. So, they refused. Sure, they were, at that point, being "obstinate teens". But, you know what? Rosa Parks never planned to cause an "incident", either. She just got to the point where she was fed up, and acted. So did these boys.

The fact that these kids were in high school is even more reason, not less for the principal to have taken different action. He could have just let it go, and watched it all blow over. Had it not, then well, he already had a pretty big issue. That issue is a groups of students who failed to understand what the U.S. flag represents in this country. That issue is this idea that celebrating one culture necessarily means criticizing others.

And that is what this all really boils down to. Do we ALL have the right to excercise our cultures, etc.? Of course! Do we all benefit from learning from each other? Of course! But, this is the U.S. No matter whether you were born here or immigrated, the one thing that unites us all is our government, the constitution and our flag.

I am not going to pretend that our country is this pure nation of ideals or unracist thoughts. Our nation has done some pretty nasty things to other countries and to some of its own people. Still, we are now at a point where most of that is beginning to disappear. We still have class "warfare", but not so much racism or "culturism".

We don't that is, until it comes to incidents like this.

I already said that some schools do, legitimately, have policies against ANY symbols. A U.S. flag could, in such a school, be considered incorrect. However, that was not the case here. The case was that this was a day set aside to celebrate hispanic culture and some boys decided they had had enough and wanted to remind everyone that this is the U.S. It was a protest, but a peaceful one.

Now it is a national incident.

[Army of GOD]

I completely understand where you're coming from Player, but I still disagree. The Principal's job is to make sure fights don't occur and to make sure the students are safe.

Did the Hispanic kids have a reason to be offended or anything like that? I have no idea, I wasn't there. But, again, to me, the Principal had 2 choices: tell the 5 kids to do something about their clothing, or tell the x-many number of other kids to not get offended. To me, the second option is kinda ridiculous, especially in a High School, so he took the easier option. And keep in mind, THESE ARE HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS. They didn't choose to immigrate here, they didn't choose to be born here, they didn't vote and they're not even legal adults, so you cannot compare the kids that got offended to others that did immigrate here.

But, as so many people refuse to understand, is that this isn't about "banning the flag". I'm not sure about their school but everyday back when I was in High School there was a flag in every room and every morning we'd recite the Pledge. This is about a few kids trying to protest something, either intentionally or unintentionally getting close to starting a fight, the Principal asking them to do something about their clothes and them refusing, and getting kicked because of it.

[john9blue]

But, as so many people refuse to understand, is that this isn't about "banning the flag".

Their clothes got banned because they had a flag on them.

Yes it is.

[Army of GOD]

Their clothes also had white on them, perhaps the color white is banned too now?







Sorry, I was feeling Lionz-ish

[Woodruff]

But, as so many people refuse to understand, is that this isn't about "banning the flag".

Their clothes got banned because they had a flag on them.
Yes it is.

It MAY have been, and it MAY NOT have been (the difference really coming down to the principal's motivation). IF, as I suspect, the principal took the action that he did as a means of student safety, then it isn't about banning the flag.

[john9blue]

How the hell can you guys twist this into "it's not about the flag"?! It IS about the flag, it always has been about the flag, and if they were offended by my Batman shirt because they liked Marvel instead of DC, I'd say the same thing... who cares, get over it.

[targetman377]

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

We do?

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

Hmmm...typically, if a person in charge does tell a student to do something along those lines and the student refuses, being sent home is the normal course of action.

yes we do. in America you cant say USA IS THE BEST because you could offend something

1) I don't really understand the point of saying "USA IS THE BEST" without trying to specify what we are or are not the best at.
2) I don't think anyone would find it particularly offensive...although you may get laughed at or argued with.

Thats my point woodruff America there is a mentality that you can't have pride in the nation your from. if you go to other countries there country is always number one. it does not matter if its true our not What ever happened to having respect for your nation or even pride in your nation. The kids had pride in America and got sent home because of this idea that NATIONALISM IS THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD AND IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING EVER! i would argue yes it can be bad but so can HAVING NO PRIDE IN YOUR NATION and America has none.

[Woodruff]

How the hell can you guys twist this into "it's not about the flag"?! It IS about the flag, it always has been about the flag, and if they were offended by my Batman shirt because they liked Marvel instead of DC, I'd say the same thing... who cares, get over it.

You'd say it was about the flag if they were offended by your Batman shirt? <grin>

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

[Woodruff]

b: true we are the one country that thinks being patriotic is offensive

We do?

C: just because a person tells you to do something does not mean you have to follow you should not get sent home for wearing clothes like that

Hmmm...typically, if a person in charge does tell a student to do something along those lines and the student refuses, being sent home is the normal course of action.

yes we do. in America you cant say USA IS THE BEST because you could offend something

1) I don't really understand the point of saying "USA IS THE BEST" without trying to specify what we are or are not the best at.
2) I don't think anyone would find it particularly offensive...although you may get laughed at or argued with.

Thats my point woodruff America there is a mentality that you can't have pride in the nation your from.

I haven't seen this mentality, I guess.

The kids had pride in America and got sent home because of this idea that NATIONALISM IS THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD AND IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING EVER! i would argue yes it can be bad but so can HAVING NO PRIDE IN YOUR NATION and America has none.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

[targetman377]

that is true i c we differ but its not like i am really going to make you jump to my side or me to yours by anything else we say unless woodruff your hiding a golden nugget? are u

[john9blue]

You'd say it was about the flag if they were offended by your Batman shirt? <grin>

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

No lol. I'm saying it is about the flag, but even if it wasn't, the result would be the same.

[72o]

Even if you assume that this principal was worried about potential violence, since when is anything that "might" cause violence a crime? Shouldn't you wait to see if it does cause violence? Then, if it does, persecute the offenders?

Otherwise, anybody and anything could be outlawed at any time because it "might" cause violence.

Personally, I think that if these boys had gotten jumped by eleventy Messicans and got the shit beat out of them, it would serve them right, because they obviously did it to be spiteful. However, it would be the Messicans who should be punished, because violence is a crime, being spiteful is not.

If I wear a Confederate flag shirt on Martin Luther King Day, I would fully expect to get my ass beat. However, I have the right to wear that shirt if I want.

[Woodruff]

Even if you assume that this principal was worried about potential violence, since when is anything that "might" cause violence a crime? Shouldn't you wait to see if it does cause violence? Then, if it does, persecute the offenders?

In the normal world, sure. High schools are unfortunately forced to handle things differently because many parents (certainly not all, but a healthy percentage) of parents want things both ways. They want their children protected and kept safe (and will sue if this isn't done) while also wanting their child to have all of the rights that we as Americans should have (and will sue if this isn't done). This creates a very real problem for school administrators in balancing safety versus rights.

As well, I would hope that no principal is acting on "anything that MIGHT cause violence". Rather, they should be acting on things that "are LIKELY to cause violence".

[targetman377]

Even if you assume that this principal was worried about potential violence, since when is anything that "might" cause violence a crime? Shouldn't you wait to see if it does cause violence? Then, if it does, persecute the offenders?

In the normal world, sure. High schools are unfortunately forced to handle things differently because many parents (certainly not all, but a healthy percentage) of parents want things both ways. They want their children protected and kept safe (and will sue if this isn't done) while also wanting their child to have all of the rights that we as Americans should have (and will sue if this isn't done). This creates a very real problem for school administrators in balancing safety versus rights.

As well, I would hope that no principal is acting on "anything that MIGHT cause violence". Rather, they should be acting on things that "are LIKELY to cause violence".

so woodruff you would disagree with the principals if he decision was based on it MIGHT cause violence?

[72o]

From Woody's Flag Code reference - I found it interesting:

No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof

[Falkomagno]

Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him?

Each nation feels superior to other nations. That breeds patriotism - and wars

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it. did you choose where to born? No. so, what's the big deal?. It's a goddamn flag !

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!


You are all fooled with this nonsense. You should start to see the flag as a piece of colors, not as a God. You are grown-ups, I think

[72o]

An update-

The Messicans are protesting the American flag-wearing kids:

On Thursday, about 200 Mexican-American students walked out of class in protest of the flag clothing incident. Members of the group waved the Mexican flag and said they were marching for respect and unity. They also demanded the school suspend the boys who wore the U.S. flag-adorned clothing.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-be ... 65324.html

[Army of GOD]

Lol wut.

This whole thing has blown way outta hand. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST LET IT GO!

[72o]

Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him?

Each nation feels superior to other nations. That breeds patriotism - and wars

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it. did you choose where to born? No. so, what's the big deal?. It's a goddamn flag !

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!


You are all fooled with this ninsense. You should styart to see the flag as a piece of colors, not as a God. You are grown.ups, I think

I have no idea where you're going with this rambling, but...

Who is talking about killing anybody? The only violence I've heard talk about is from the Messican side.

Are you saying patriotism is bad? It is true, most Americans believe their country is better to all others. In fact, I'd expect other countries' citizens to all feel the same about their own country. If not, they'd just move here. Oh, wait...

The flag is a symbol of our entire country, which we Americans are pretty big on.

I don't particularly dig inviting people over for dinner who complain that I didn't give them big enough portions and tell me to change the wall color because they don't like it.