sad Days for america

[Falkomagno]

Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him?

Each nation feels superior to other nations. That breeds patriotism - and wars

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it. did you choose where to born? No. so, what's the big deal?. It's a goddamn flag !

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!


You are all fooled with this ninsense. You should styart to see the flag as a piece of colors, not as a God. You are grown.ups, I think

I have no idea where you're going with this rambling, but...

Who is talking about killing anybody? The only violence I've heard talk about is from the Messican side.

Are you saying patriotism is bad? It is true, most Americans believe their country is better to all others. In fact, I'd expect other countries' citizens to all feel the same about their own country. If not, they'd just move here. Oh, wait...

The flag is a symbol of our entire country, which we Americans are pretty big on.

I don't particularly dig inviting people over for dinner who complain that I didn't give them big enough portions and tell me to change the wall color because they don't like it.

You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.

I do not consider patriotism desirable if it contradicts civilized behavior

[deronimo]

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

Not necessarily

It could be the conviction that it is simply a good country, but not superior to others. It could also mean showing patriotism because you believe your country could progress to a higher standard of what it could be rather than where it is today. You could have the conviction that you owe your country your obedience and life, depending on the circumstances, in order to help it survive. As long you aren't blindly devoted to doing whatever it wants without question, it could totally be worthwhile and dignified to be a patriot of your country.

[jimboston]

Sometimes, when you choose to exercise your Freedom of Speech, you happen to offend somebody (or some group of people).

Possibly, you choose to exercise your Freedom of Speech specifically with the goal of offending someone. As it is just that "offense" which will cause the message to be heard.

So yes... even if these kids specifically wore those shirts with the intention of raising a few hairs. Who cares?

It is their right to do so.
===

Now...

If some other kid who is offended punches them in the face or otherwise starts a fight. Two things I have to say about it...

1) It takes courage to speak your mind if you know you may get in trouble for it. You have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. If those consequences involve getting punched in the face... you should prepare yourself for that going in.

2) The person or persons who would take such offense as-to punch one of these kids in the face. That person needs to be prepared to deal with the consequences of that action. That act... punching someone... is at least assault and battery... and there are existing laws on the books (even in California) that cover that act.
===

What happened to the administrators of the school?

Did they get 'written up' or suspended or fined in some way?

They should have!

[Woodruff]

Even if you assume that this principal was worried about potential violence, since when is anything that "might" cause violence a crime? Shouldn't you wait to see if it does cause violence? Then, if it does, persecute the offenders?

In the normal world, sure. High schools are unfortunately forced to handle things differently because many parents (certainly not all, but a healthy percentage) of parents want things both ways. They want their children protected and kept safe (and will sue if this isn't done) while also wanting their child to have all of the rights that we as Americans should have (and will sue if this isn't done). This creates a very real problem for school administrators in balancing safety versus rights.

As well, I would hope that no principal is acting on "anything that MIGHT cause violence". Rather, they should be acting on things that "are LIKELY to cause violence".

so woodruff you would disagree with the principals if he decision was based on it MIGHT cause violence?

My stance on this whole thing from the BEGINNING was that the principal is in the position to best know the extent of the reaction to the boys wearing those t-shirts as they did. I supported his making the decision for that reason.

[Woodruff]

From Woody's Flag Code reference - I found it interesting:

No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof

What's interesting about it? Most nations have this sort of a stance regarding their flags.

[Woodruff]

An update-
The Messicans are protesting the American flag-wearing kids:

On Thursday, about 200 Mexican-American students walked out of class in protest of the flag clothing incident. Members of the group waved the Mexican flag and said they were marching for respect and unity.

Can't make yourself say the word "Mexicans", 72o?

However, I'm confused. The boys were sent home...what the hell is there to protest about? Sure, the school district said they disagreed with the ruling, but the school district can't "undo" the fact that they were sent home.

They also demanded the school suspend the boys who wore the U.S. flag-adorned clothing.

Which is ridiculous.

So to add...based on this reaction, are we really so sure that violence wouldn't have happened had the boys not been sent home?

[Woodruff]

1) It takes courage to speak your mind if you know you may get in trouble for it. You have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. If those consequences involve getting punched in the face... you should prepare yourself for that going in.
2) The person or persons who would take such offense as-to punch one of these kids in the face. That person needs to be prepared to deal with the consequences of that action. That act... punching someone... is at least assault and battery... and there are existing laws on the books (even in California) that cover that act.

Quite true. Life is all about choices.

[john9blue]

In the normal world, sure. High schools are unfortunately forced to handle things differently because many parents (certainly not all, but a healthy percentage) of parents want things both ways. They want their children protected and kept safe (and will sue if this isn't done) while also wanting their child to have all of the rights that we as Americans should have (and will sue if this isn't done). This creates a very real problem for school administrators in balancing safety versus rights.

As well, I would hope that no principal is acting on "anything that MIGHT cause violence". Rather, they should be acting on things that "are LIKELY to cause violence".

Do you think that, if they had let the boys wear the shirt and then one of them got beaten up, parents would come complaining about letting them wear the flag? I doubt it, but then I've never been a parent.

An update-
The Messicans are protesting the American flag-wearing kids:

On Thursday, about 200 Mexican-American students walked out of class in protest of the flag clothing incident. Members of the group waved the Mexican flag and said they were marching for respect and unity.

Can't make yourself say the word "Mexicans", 72o?

However, I'm confused. The boys were sent home...what the hell is there to protest about? Sure, the school district said they disagreed with the ruling, but the school district can't "undo" the fact that they were sent home.

This is what fucking happens when you start letting a few people decide what is and isn't okay with regards to free speech. Give people an inch and they will take a mile. The boys with the shirt did NOTHING WRONG and they are being punished. Now they are pushing for more punishment and more Mexican influence in America.

"Possible violence" is a bullshit excuse that could be used for damn near anything. There is NO excuse for violating people's rights like this.

[jay_a2j]

Had (hypothetically speaking) a group of Mexican students wore the Mexican flag on their shirts on say, the 4th of July you wouldn't have heard a peep about it. It is this, "we can not offend any minority group but must be tolerant when they offend us" mentality that plays a part in destroying the U S of A.

[Army of GOD]

Who's says they're taking anything?

It's a group of 200 students that are looking for unity. WHAT THE F*** DOES THAT MEAN! They have NO idea what they're protesting, and they're not going to get very far.

[Woodruff]

In the normal world, sure. High schools are unfortunately forced to handle things differently because many parents (certainly not all, but a healthy percentage) of parents want things both ways. They want their children protected and kept safe (and will sue if this isn't done) while also wanting their child to have all of the rights that we as Americans should have (and will sue if this isn't done). This creates a very real problem for school administrators in balancing safety versus rights.

As well, I would hope that no principal is acting on "anything that MIGHT cause violence". Rather, they should be acting on things that "are LIKELY to cause violence".

Do you think that, if they had let the boys wear the shirt and then one of them got beaten up, parents would come complaining about letting them wear the flag? I doubt it, but then I've never been a parent.

DId you read what I said? Because I'm not sure how you came about the idea you put here.

An update-
The Messicans are protesting the American flag-wearing kids:

On Thursday, about 200 Mexican-American students walked out of class in protest of the flag clothing incident. Members of the group waved the Mexican flag and said they were marching for respect and unity.

Can't make yourself say the word "Mexicans", 72o?

However, I'm confused. The boys were sent home...what the hell is there to protest about? Sure, the school district said they disagreed with the ruling, but the school district can't "undo" the fact that they were sent home.

This is what fucking happens when you start letting a few people decide what is and isn't okay with regards to free speech. Give people an inch and they will take a mile. The boys with the shirt did NOTHING WRONG and they are being punished. Now they are pushing for more punishment and more Mexican influence in America.

You mean the Mexicans weren't pushing for influence until these boys wore their flag t-shirts...fascinating.

"Possible violence" is a bullshit excuse that could be used for damn near anything. There is NO excuse for violating people's rights like this.

High schools have every right to mandate appropriate wear at schools, actually.

[PLAYER57832]

But, as so many people refuse to understand, is that this isn't about "banning the flag".

Their clothes got banned because they had a flag on them.
Yes it is.

It MAY have been, and it MAY NOT have been (the difference really coming down to the principal's motivation). IF, as I suspect, the principal took the action that he did as a means of student safety, then it isn't about banning the flag.

Woodruff, come on. When the cause of the violance is display of a U.S. flag, then it IS about the flag.

.. and that is the whole point.

[Woodruff]

But, as so many people refuse to understand, is that this isn't about "banning the flag".

Their clothes got banned because they had a flag on them.
Yes it is.

It MAY have been, and it MAY NOT have been (the difference really coming down to the principal's motivation). IF, as I suspect, the principal took the action that he did as a means of student safety, then it isn't about banning the flag.

Woodruff, come on. When the cause of the violance is display of a U.S. flag, then it IS about the flag.
.. and that is the whole point.

So if the cause of violence is because someone wore red shoelaces, you would claim that it was only about red shoelaces? Really?

[PLAYER57832]

"Possible violence" is a bullshit excuse that could be used for damn near anything. There is NO excuse for violating people's rights like this.

High schools have every right to mandate appropriate wear at schools, actually.

Absolutely true. AND, if this were a move to ban ALL symbols, ALL words, etc. -- a step that HAS been taken because, among other issues, even a U.S. flag can be a gang symbol.

However, that was just not the case here. No,the reason these shirts were considered "offensive" and "perhaps the cause of pending violance" was because it was Cinco De Mayo, a day to celebrate hispanic culture and, frankly, you will find a good many very liberal, very tolerant (in general) people, people who marched in the 60's and their kids (who agree with their parents, we are not talking rebels!) who are just plain fed up with being told that they have to speak Spanish, including a good many other hispanic-Americans.

[Army of GOD]

Ok, I'll admit, it DOES have to do with the flag, just like this scenario:

I am in High School, and someone repeatedly comes up to me and shoves an American flag in my face. I talk to the Principal and he asks the kid to stop, the kid refuses and is kicked out of school.

Just because he was using the flag doesn't mean it was BECAUSE of the flag, it's how it was being used. Again, they probably have TONS of flags in that school, and if only 1 or 2 of them wore the flag-clothing that day, it would've been fine. But they didn't, went overboard, and forced the issue.

[PLAYER57832]

But, as so many people refuse to understand, is that this isn't about "banning the flag".

Their clothes got banned because they had a flag on them.
Yes it is.

It MAY have been, and it MAY NOT have been (the difference really coming down to the principal's motivation). IF, as I suspect, the principal took the action that he did as a means of student safety, then it isn't about banning the flag.

Woodruff, come on. When the cause of the violance is display of a U.S. flag, then it IS about the flag.
.. and that is the whole point.

So if the cause of violence is because someone wore red shoelaces, you would claim that it was only about red shoelaces? Really?

#1 that is not even an esoteric question. It is the reality. It is why many school districts now have uniforms, because the gang threats and so forth are so serious.

#2. If you want to claim that red shoelaces are equivalent to the U.S. flag, then .. well, I guess the flag code is irrelevant.

[PLAYER57832]

Ok, I'll admit, it DOES have to do with the flag, just like this scenario:

I am in High School, and someone repeatedly comes up to me and shoves an American flag in my face. I talk to the Principal and he asks the kid to stop, the kid refuses and is kicked out of school.

Just because he was using the flag doesn't mean it was BECAUSE of the flag, it's how it was being used. Again, they probably have TONS of flags in that school, and if only 1 or 2 of them wore the flag-clothing that day, it would've been fine. But they didn't, went overboard, and forced the issue.

See, now you are reading things into this.

The point is that these boys were not shoving the flag in people's faces. They wore the clothes. They wore them on Cinco De Mayo, because, yes, they wanted to make a point. A peaceful point.

Shoving a flag of ANY kind is not OK. The actions are wrong. In this case, there were no wrong actions, except the refusal to turn the shirts inside out. And yes, that makes all the difference in the world.

[jay_a2j]

except the refusal to turn the shirts inside out.

It was a flag, not some pornographic cartoon! I'd have a serious talk with my kids principal if she was told to turn her flag shirt "inside out"! And if need be a lawsuit forthcoming.

[thegreekdog]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

[Army of GOD]

If I had any children and they wore American flag tees to school and were asked to turn it inside out, I'd talk to the Principal as well. If he told me that my kids and a bunch of friends all wore the clothes on a specific day in the middle of a touchy subject that's occurring at the moment to "protest" this subject that's happening and that a few kids were offended by the untimeliness of the collusion to wear the clothes and that a fight could've broken out if action was taken first, then, I'd understand.

[Phatscotty]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

[Woodruff]

It MAY have been, and it MAY NOT have been (the difference really coming down to the principal's motivation). IF, as I suspect, the principal took the action that he did as a means of student safety, then it isn't about banning the flag.

Woodruff, come on. When the cause of the violance is display of a U.S. flag, then it IS about the flag.
.. and that is the whole point.

So if the cause of violence is because someone wore red shoelaces, you would claim that it was only about red shoelaces? Really?

#1 that is not even an esoteric question. It is the reality. It is why many school districts now have uniforms, because the gang threats and so forth are so serious.

And yet, it is NOT because of the red shoelaces. Correct?

#2. If you want to claim that red shoelaces are equivalent to the U.S. flag, then .. well, I guess the flag code is irrelevant.

Equivalent? You're not even trying any more, are you?

[bradleybadly]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

You're wife is a lawyer, too?

I guess disagreements in the greekdog household would be more like opening and closing arguments. At least you wouldn't have to deal with an occasional sidebar.

[DirtyDishSoap]

The way I've looked at the article, I can only honestly say who friggin cares.

The School did handle it wrong in my point view, plenty of other ways to approach that situation, like, oh I don't know, leave it alone? It wasn't even a holiday that was related to America, so whats the problem? Honestly, if any Mexican has an issue with it, he can go back to his own country and celebrate his own countrys holiday god damnit. We don't travel all the way to the U.K. to celebrate 4th of July do we? Pretty sure we don't last I checked but hell I could be wrong.

Whatever, people are stupid, end of story.

[Army of GOD]

BUT THESE PEOPLE DIDN'T IMMIGRATE HERE! THEY'RE HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO WERE BORN IN THE U.S.!