bradleybadly wrote:Player, I'm going to have to go back and read some more. You said that Phatscotty took a quote of yours out of context, and then when you quoted me I think you broke off part of what I was saying as well. I need to take a look at who's quoting who, when, and where
Anyway, as far as you hitting a nerve, hopefully you don't think I'm calling
you full of bullshit. I'm rather peeved though about people being called racists in a roundabout way without having to actually use the words "you're a racist". It seems like that was the talking point you were embracing. But I do need to go back and see what you and PhatScotty were arguing about more carefully. If you want, you can point out the specific sentence of yours that he misused to make it easier.
When I said "out of context" I meant that it was part of a whole line of discussion. I don't think this is
just about racism. If I gave you that impression, then I apologize. And no, I did not understand you to be calling me names. I think it is a part of the mix, but only a part, and I think it operates in a subtle level. That is, while I (and I am sure you) am quite sure that there are plenty of people who "would love to wear white hoods" who have latched onto this issue, they are mostly "taggers on". They exist, they are real, but they are not the movers here. AND, that mentality certainly exists on all sides.
Here is the thing, racism has gotten a very nasty name in recent years. Rightyfully so, for the most part. However, there is a point at which each of us is just plain more comfortable with people "like us". Now, this does NOT necessarily mean people of the same color, but it does mean people who have essentially the same culture. Sometimes that cooincides with race, but not always. When you have large groups of people coming into a community, it causes change. Some people are always going to be a bit unhappy about change. Its just life. Mostly, its not a problem, just a matter of different people being different. No biggie.
HOWEVER, when things get tough, when jobs appear to be scarce, when taxes increase, when people just don't feel that leaders are listening, or when things change too much (and "too much" depends on the person, there is no real "set point"), then people start looking for targets. Its human nature. People you don't know very well, people with whom you are not all that comfortable are prime targets.
Now, I said I don't excuse myself. In truth, this has always been a very difficult issue for me. I can remember my father coming home, frustrated because he could not talk to his co-workers. At first it was no big deal, he just took pains to try and teach them basic English. (just the stuff for work, not a whole lesson or anything) But, inevitably they would answer "no comprende. No Englez". What they did not realize is that my father was an immigrant, who also came here not speaking English. Finally, in frustration, he spoke to them in HIS native language. When they realized that English was not his native language, either, THEN, and only then were they willing to even try to communicate with him in English. When they became legal, my father also then helped them find citizenship classes, etc.
The line that most of us draw is that we are quite happy to have anybody come here. As greekdog mentioned, this is, in that sense, nothing more than another wave of immigrants. That they come here illegally is a fact of a racist law. Now in that, I am firm. It IS racism that has historically kept the limits so low for Mexicans -- racism and the fact that so many businesses flat benefit from having them arrive illegally. (more on that later).
A lot of people want to say "but why don't they come here legally, just like everyone else?" There is a good reason. It is almost impossible to come here legally. The numbers allowed are very, very low. No where near the estimated 10,000,000 working here.
So, do people are against illegals believe themselves to be racist, are they racist. To the first, I would say absolutely 'NO!". The second, gets a lot more complicated. I agree that throwing that accusation out is not something to do lightly. On the other hand... there are times when it is hard to really and truly see another answer.
When it comes to security, right now, we do have a pretty big issue with drugs and weapons. The irony, however, is that the weapons are largely coming from the U.S. Also that problem has very little to do with the people who come here simply to work, except that there are now more people coming here to flee violance down south. In either case, these people are not ones we need to worry about becoming terrorists or committing other crimes, except that any time you have several million people you will, of course, have more than a couple of idiots. Any time studies are done of the illegal population, it turns out that they are actually far more law-abiding than the rest of us. It make sense. They want to stay! Sure, we hear about a few idiots here and there, but compare the percentage of criminals in that population to the regular population. Pick 10,000,000 americans and you will find more than a couple murderers, rapists, etc.
The part of your argument that is real is that the Mexican government, right now, is pretty corrupt and so perhaps makes a better entry point than Canada or other countries. Except.. well, because there are problems there, it has proven a lot easier for people to just come here. OR, as we just saw, to simply recruit young people in this country. In any case, thinking that securing our border with Mexico will help in any way or that rounding up Mexicans who are here to work, but who came illegally will help is just not correct.
Oh, I have to address this though -
bradleybadly wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:I mean, come on, when greekdog and I agree on such an issue, you can hardly call this "liberal idiocy!".
The fact that you and greekdog agree on this does not make it true. His reasoning is just as flawed as yours if he's basing it on race.
True, but there is one fact that both greekdog and I share that perhaps explains our agreement here. Each of us is a child of an immigrant. Perhaps this is more personal to us for that reason?
