Private pay shrinks to historic lows as gov't payouts rise

[PLAYER57832]

The trend is not sustainable, says University of Michigan economist Donald Grimes. Reason: The federal government depends on private wages to generate income taxes to pay for its ever-more-expensive programs. Government-generated income is taxed at lower rates or not at all, he says.

This part is not correct, or rather, it is only correct because those getting non-work government pay make so much less. Even those employed by the government most often make less than those in private industry with similar education and experience requirements.

Just as an example, the government heads of the BP operation make less than many of the workers on that rig.

This trend is disturbing, but hardly surprising, given the Baby boom generation is maturing and the down economy.

Are you sure that government employees make less than similarly situated private employees? Wasn't there a big chart posted a couple months ago on this (that showed government employees make more money)? And didn't you, in that thread, indicate that this was because (to paraphrase) corporations were evil?

No. The I don't believe chart actually did not show that when we looked into it more deeply. I was a set of cherry-picked examples, and even then did not really show what it was claimed to show. Also, there is a HUGE difference between the heads and lower level employees in both arenas.

Lowest level private sector employees often do make less than similarly qualified government employees. But, there is a lot of inconsistancy both within the government and private sector in that. I, for example, worked a position that supposedly only required a year or two of college, but which in fact required a bachelors and which more often would have been filled by someone with a Masters (and to clarify, in Biology a Master's degree is what you are required to get prior to getting a doctorate, it is NOT a fallback for those who fail to get their PhD, as it is in some other fields). I made about 2/3 what the secretary made, a position that only required a high school diploma. Also, she automatically got benefits. I only got them because I had been in a special program. IN private sector, a janitor, who has to deal with human waste, is often required to take a hepatitis shot (should, anyway -- gloves help, but things happen), hazardous chemicals, etc.. will often make less than a floor laborer in a factory. A nurse makes less than a welder, in many cases. Etc.

However, once you move up in ranks, the balance shifts and in extreme ways. CEOS and bankers commonly make several hundred thousand, often millions. No federal employee makes millions, either in bonuses or salary.

[Woodruff]

The trend is not sustainable, says University of Michigan economist Donald Grimes. Reason: The federal government depends on private wages to generate income taxes to pay for its ever-more-expensive programs. Government-generated income is taxed at lower rates or not at all, he says.

This part is not correct, or rather, it is only correct because those getting non-work government pay make so much less. Even those employed by the government most often make less than those in private industry with similar education and experience requirements.

Just as an example, the government heads of the BP operation make less than many of the workers on that rig.

This trend is disturbing, but hardly surprising, given the Baby boom generation is maturing and the down economy.

Are you sure that government employees make less than similarly situated private employees?

Not the government employees that are in the military, certainly. I'm not sure about the civil servants.

[Titanic]

Conservatives like to through out these claims of government workers who are overpaid, wasteful. However, that is based on their belief that there simply should not be these government positions. They dislike the EPA, for example, because the EPA "gets in the way" of industry. Now, there absolutely are idiots, overpaid people in the government. That is true in private industry as well. You hire people, some will not pan out. Departments might be created that seem to make sense, at least to some people, for a while, but that wind up being wastes.

In the private sector, when a person doesn't pan out, they're fired. In the private sector, when departments end up being a waste, they are cut. When does this ever happen in the federal government?

In the private sector, when you mess up big you get fired. In government, you get promoted. (Just look at all the people who got promoted after 911)

Look at all the people who kept their jobs after 9/11...Bush, Cheney, Rice, top level official in the CIA etc....

[GabonX]

Judging by the idiocy in this thread, the refusal to read the writing on the wall when placed in such simple an unobjectionable terms, it seems clear to me that we are headed for a truly unprecedented economic disaster...

So who's coming to Brazil with me?

[GabonX]

Just as a side note, the debt owed by each US taxpayer to pay off the nation's debt is now over $100,000..

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[GabonX]

If the trend continues then I would be worried, but if by next year these numbers are reversing then I won't be too concerned. No reason to get excited by a recent jump, you have to think long term here.

Those records reflect a long-term trend accelerated by the recession and the federal stimulus program to counteract the downturn. The result is a major shift in the source of personal income from private wages to government programs.

California is already bankrupt and is being bailed out by the Feds...

The situation isn't totally unlike the situation with the EU and Greece.

The US long term situation is totally unlike the budget deficits in the EU and Greece.

You're a moron

[Nobunaga]

Judging by the idiocy in this thread, the refusal to read the writing on the wall when placed in such simple an unobjectionable terms, it seems clear to me that we are headed for a truly unprecedented economic disaster...

So who's coming to Brazil with me?

... Costa Rica is actually the go-to location, I've read.

...

[deronimo]

You have just got out of a recession where the unemployment rate is very high, of course entitlements are going to be paying out more and people will be on average earning less. Thats common sense.

Wait! We're out of the recession now?

[GabonX]

Judging by the idiocy in this thread, the refusal to read the writing on the wall when placed in such simple an unobjectionable terms, it seems clear to me that we are headed for a truly unprecedented economic disaster...

So who's coming to Brazil with me?

You have just got out of a recession where the unemployment rate is very high, of course entitlements are going to be paying out more and people will be on average earning less. Thats common sense.

Wait! We're out of the recession now?

Feeling a little bit better now..

I'm glad I'm not the only one that catches things like this.

[tzor]

Admittedly, I haven't needed to date in 25+ years, but you sure seem to have some odd dating habits.

They say the first 25 years are the hardest. I'm not so sure about that!

Note to married people: don't say you don't need to date because if you don't go out with your SO for a certain period they start to file divorce papers.

[Titanic]

You have just got out of a recession where the unemployment rate is very high, of course entitlements are going to be paying out more and people will be on average earning less. Thats common sense.

Wait! We're out of the recession now?

Yes, a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Hence the USA is no longer is a recession, it is now in a recovery.

Judging by the idiocy in this thread, the refusal to read the writing on the wall when placed in such simple an unobjectionable terms, it seems clear to me that we are headed for a truly unprecedented economic disaster...

So who's coming to Brazil with me?

You are aware that Brazil is one of those nasty socialist countries?

[silvanricky]

Yes, a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Hence the USA is no longer is a recession, it is now in a recovery.

This is simply delusional. You're only using one point of data when the NBER uses more than one to define it. Tell that to the over 8 million who've lost their private sector jobs. All this statement is, is repeating something like a textbook answer. It means little to people who are suffering through 9.9% unemployment.

"The NBER does not define a recession in terms of two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. Rather, a recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."

http://www.nber.org/cycles/cyclesmain.html

*Waits for Player to come in saying "the real culprits are corporations and management who won't pay their workers enough"

[Titanic]

Yes, a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Hence the USA is no longer is a recession, it is now in a recovery.

This is simply delusional. You're only using one point of data when the NBER uses more than one to define it. Tell that to the over 8 million who've lost their private sector jobs. All this statement is, is repeating something like a textbook answer. It means little to people who are suffering through 9.9% unemployment.

"The NBER does not define a recession in terms of two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. Rather, a recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."

http://www.nber.org/cycles/cyclesmain.html

*Waits for Player to come in saying "the real culprits are corporations and management who won't pay their workers enough"

When defining the start and end of something I will tend to go for the textbook definition, it removes all bias or opinion.

Btw, I am well aware of the unemployment levels but that itseld does not prove a recessions, its merely a by product of the recession. Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

[bradleybadly]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

[thegreekdog]

The trend is not sustainable, says University of Michigan economist Donald Grimes. Reason: The federal government depends on private wages to generate income taxes to pay for its ever-more-expensive programs. Government-generated income is taxed at lower rates or not at all, he says.

This part is not correct, or rather, it is only correct because those getting non-work government pay make so much less. Even those employed by the government most often make less than those in private industry with similar education and experience requirements.

Just as an example, the government heads of the BP operation make less than many of the workers on that rig.

This trend is disturbing, but hardly surprising, given the Baby boom generation is maturing and the down economy.

Are you sure that government employees make less than similarly situated private employees? Wasn't there a big chart posted a couple months ago on this (that showed government employees make more money)? And didn't you, in that thread, indicate that this was because (to paraphrase) corporations were evil?

No. The I don't believe chart actually did not show that when we looked into it more deeply. I was a set of cherry-picked examples, and even then did not really show what it was claimed to show. Also, there is a HUGE difference between the heads and lower level employees in both arenas.

Lowest level private sector employees often do make less than similarly qualified government employees. But, there is a lot of inconsistancy both within the government and private sector in that. I, for example, worked a position that supposedly only required a year or two of college, but which in fact required a bachelors and which more often would have been filled by someone with a Masters (and to clarify, in Biology a Master's degree is what you are required to get prior to getting a doctorate, it is NOT a fallback for those who fail to get their PhD, as it is in some other fields). I made about 2/3 what the secretary made, a position that only required a high school diploma. Also, she automatically got benefits. I only got them because I had been in a special program. IN private sector, a janitor, who has to deal with human waste, is often required to take a hepatitis shot (should, anyway -- gloves help, but things happen), hazardous chemicals, etc.. will often make less than a floor laborer in a factory. A nurse makes less than a welder, in many cases. Etc.

However, once you move up in ranks, the balance shifts and in extreme ways. CEOS and bankers commonly make several hundred thousand, often millions. No federal employee makes millions, either in bonuses or salary.

I'm pretty sure the list was exhaustive (and required me to scroll down a number of times).

If attorneys are any indication, a first year attorney working for the federal government (i.e. the Justice Department or the IRS) makes significantly more money than the average first year attorney.

[Titanic]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

Statisitical significance: None.

[bradleybadly]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

Statisitical significance: None.

This is getting ridiculous. You guys on the left just deny things like when we gave specific references about illegal immigration. If you're just going to say reality isn't real, illegality should be legal, and students expressing American patriotism are trying to start trouble, then there's really no way to reason with you. You guys just create your own reality and argue from the premise that it's the way things are. Damn the facts because your minds are made up.

[GabonX]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

Statisitical significance: None.

Actually it's very significant.

The census hires people in every district of the United States to work on a temporary basis. These people are assigned to teams, carry out a given operation, and then their employment stops. This is a significant number of jobs which are only temporary but are still counted as having been "created".

If they're counting the the same people multiple times it will result in a severely skewed number..

[spurgistan]

The trend is not sustainable, says University of Michigan economist Donald Grimes. Reason: The federal government depends on private wages to generate income taxes to pay for its ever-more-expensive programs. Government-generated income is taxed at lower rates or not at all, he says.

This part is not correct, or rather, it is only correct because those getting non-work government pay make so much less. Even those employed by the government most often make less than those in private industry with similar education and experience requirements.

Just as an example, the government heads of the BP operation make less than many of the workers on that rig.

This trend is disturbing, but hardly surprising, given the Baby boom generation is maturing and the down economy.

Are you sure that government employees make less than similarly situated private employees? Wasn't there a big chart posted a couple months ago on this (that showed government employees make more money)? And didn't you, in that thread, indicate that this was because (to paraphrase) corporations were evil?

No. The I don't believe chart actually did not show that when we looked into it more deeply. I was a set of cherry-picked examples, and even then did not really show what it was claimed to show. Also, there is a HUGE difference between the heads and lower level employees in both arenas.

Lowest level private sector employees often do make less than similarly qualified government employees. But, there is a lot of inconsistancy both within the government and private sector in that. I, for example, worked a position that supposedly only required a year or two of college, but which in fact required a bachelors and which more often would have been filled by someone with a Masters (and to clarify, in Biology a Master's degree is what you are required to get prior to getting a doctorate, it is NOT a fallback for those who fail to get their PhD, as it is in some other fields). I made about 2/3 what the secretary made, a position that only required a high school diploma. Also, she automatically got benefits. I only got them because I had been in a special program. IN private sector, a janitor, who has to deal with human waste, is often required to take a hepatitis shot (should, anyway -- gloves help, but things happen), hazardous chemicals, etc.. will often make less than a floor laborer in a factory. A nurse makes less than a welder, in many cases. Etc.

However, once you move up in ranks, the balance shifts and in extreme ways. CEOS and bankers commonly make several hundred thousand, often millions. No federal employee makes millions, either in bonuses or salary.

I'm pretty sure the list was exhaustive (and required me to scroll down a number of times).

If attorneys are any indication, a first year attorney working for the federal government (i.e. the Justice Department or the IRS) makes significantly more money than the average first year attorney.

Does that account for who the Justice Dept. or the IRS hires, education and credentials and so on? Doesn't Justice sort of get it's pick of the creamiest of the crop? And creamy matters a lot when it comes to attorneys and wages?

[Woodruff]

Judging by the idiocy in this thread, the refusal to read the writing on the wall when placed in such simple an unobjectionable terms, it seems clear to me that we are headed for a truly unprecedented economic disaster...

So who's coming to Brazil with me?

... Costa Rica is actually the go-to location, I've read.

...

Panama is the new Costa Rica (CR is getting pricey.)

[Woodruff]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

Statisitical significance: None.

This is getting ridiculous. You guys on the left just deny things like when we gave specific references about illegal immigration. If you're just going to say reality isn't real, illegality should be legal, and students expressing American patriotism are trying to start trouble, then there's really no way to reason with you. You guys just create your own reality and argue from the premise that it's the way things are. Damn the facts because your minds are made up.

Students expressing American patriotism CAN'T POSSIBLY be trying to start trouble?

[Phatscotty]

This is what Socialism looks like...

[DangerBoy]

This is getting ridiculous. You guys on the left just deny things like when we gave specific references about illegal immigration. If you're just going to say reality isn't real, illegality should be legal, and students expressing American patriotism are trying to start trouble, then there's really no way to reason with you. You guys just create your own reality and argue from the premise that it's the way things are. Damn the facts because your minds are made up.

Bradley, you should probably take a break from discussing things then and look at some polls. I think you'll be encouraged that a majority of people agree with you. In this place though, the most vocal people usually represent what's a minority view in the real world.

[rockfist]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

Statisitical significance: None.

This is getting ridiculous. You guys on the left just deny things like when we gave specific references about illegal immigration. If you're just going to say reality isn't real, illegality should be legal, and students expressing American patriotism are trying to start trouble, then there's really no way to reason with you. You guys just create your own reality and argue from the premise that it's the way things are. Damn the facts because your minds are made up.

Students expressing American patriotism CAN'T POSSIBLY be trying to start trouble?

Of course they COULD BE, but that doesn't mean that they ARE. Which is what he argued some on the left were claiming.

[Titanic]

Also, have you noticed the 250,000 jobs that are being created every month, thats kinda a sign of a recovery isn't it?

It's a sign of deception

Statisitical significance: None.

This is getting ridiculous. You guys on the left just deny things like when we gave specific references about illegal immigration. If you're just going to say reality isn't real, illegality should be legal, and students expressing American patriotism are trying to start trouble, then there's really no way to reason with you. You guys just create your own reality and argue from the premise that it's the way things are. Damn the facts because your minds are made up.

This is why it has no real significance (took me about 5 seconds to find): "Since December, nonfarm payroll employment
has expanded by 573,000, with 483,000 jobs added in the private sector."http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

The real growth has been from the private sector and not from the public sector. Even if the public sector fiddled their claim so that all 90,000 public jobs actually were only 9 in reality there was still almost half a million jobs created. If the real view of things the few jobs that were faked according to that report has no real statistical significance on 573,000 jobs.