Israel's International Crisis (escalation #1)

[icedagger]

Ahh, thought ink was talking about 0:26

[Snorri1234]

edit: and the israelis are claiming that this stuff was discovered together, not scattered around the ship where a lot of it would indeed be pretty innocuous.

It was used by the people on the ships to defend themselves, obviously. But acting like they're weapons to be smuggled is silly.

[icedagger]

True, it would be a lot of effort to smuggle some pretty terrible weapons in. But claiming they're not weapons at all is equally silly

[Snorri1234]

Ahh, thought ink was talking about 0:26

Those are flares, which incidentally are mandatory.

[Snorri1234]

True, it would be a lot of effort to smuggle some pretty terrible weapons in. But claiming they're not weapons at all is equally silly

Well they can be used as weapons, of course. You can use a lot of stuf in your own house as weapons too. Kitchen knifes, pocket knifes and screwdrivers are not really weapons though. These were almost all very innocent things to have, especially on a ship.

[Gypsys Kiss]

Ahh, thought ink was talking about 0:26

Those are flares, which incidentally are mandatory.

Mandatory for what? Using against armed men who have come to inspect the boat you are on?

[icedagger]

Was going by the caption and the fact they had "smoke torch" written on them but admittedly I don't know much about flares.

You might find some of that stuff on most ships, but the fact it was all cached together (assuming the israelis are being truthful) makes its purpose pretty clear.

[2dimes]

Ahh, thought ink was talking about 0:26

Those are flares, which incidentally are mandatory.

Mandatory for what? Using against armed men who have come to inspect the boat you are on?

Signalling other vessels or S.A.R. if you have problems and can't use radios.

[Snorri1234]

Was going by the caption and the fact they had "smoke torch" written on them but admittedly I don't know much about flares.

You might find some of that stuff on most ships, but the fact it was all cached together (assuming the israelis are being truthful) makes its purpose pretty clear.

It's interesting that the Israelis claim it was cached together and also used against them. Did the people who were shot go back and lay those things back on the pile or something?

[icedagger]

I was under the impression these were different weapons from the ones they were attacked with. Have they claimed they were the same ones?

[GabonX]

@ Player

When you put forth something more than incendiary accusations and presumptions we can talk. You're making statements which require substance to back them up. Saying that "Jews have been stealing land from Palestinians for a thousand years" goes beyond the realm of normal criticism and really does enter the realm of anti-semitism.

I also can't find anything about the supposed Jewish law you're referring to. Until you actually support your incendiary and provacative statements with facts, there's really no need to delve into them.

True, it would be a lot of effort to smuggle some pretty terrible weapons in. But claiming they're not weapons at all is equally silly

Well they can be used as weapons, of course. You can use a lot of stuf in your own house as weapons too. Kitchen knifes, pocket knifes and screwdrivers are not really weapons though. These were almost all very innocent things to have, especially on a ship.

I don't think anybody was claiming that these were weapons to be smuggled in Snorri..

The issue is that these things (metal bars, slingshots with rocks, etc.) were used as weapons to attack the inspectors before they even set foot on the boat.

[Woodruff]

Thanks Dimes. Yeah there are protests all over the world, most notably in Turkey, which is a muslim country that has enjoyed a great relationship with Israel. That's why this will be an international crisis...

Agreed...Turkey's being this upset is a very bad thing for Israel, and really shows that they probably fucked this one up pretty badly. There were so many ways they could have handled this better.

[GabonX]

They did offer to ferry the supplies to Gaza, but this was refused...

Relations have been going sour between Turkey and Israel for a while. Turkey seems to be progressively aligning itself with they Iranian-Syrian alliance..

[Snorri1234]

True, it would be a lot of effort to smuggle some pretty terrible weapons in. But claiming they're not weapons at all is equally silly

Well they can be used as weapons, of course. You can use a lot of stuf in your own house as weapons too. Kitchen knifes, pocket knifes and screwdrivers are not really weapons though. These were almost all very innocent things to have, especially on a ship.

I don't think anybody was claiming that these were weapons to be smuggled in Snorri..

Except the guy who posted the videos we're discussing.

The issue is that these things (metal bars, slingshots with rocks, etc.) were used as weapons to attack the inspectors before they even set foot on the boat.

A.) Commandos are not inspectors.
B.) It is unclear whether there weren't already soldiers on board when the guys on the boat started fighting.
C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

[billy07]

turkey are going to send a warship to sail with the next flotilla. i'll bet israel are pissing their pants!

every western country should follow israel's example on how to deal with terrorists and gay liberal protesters.

[icedagger]

C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

Pretty sure they didn't.

[Snorri1234]

C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

Pretty sure they didn't.

It was completely illegal what Israel did. Like, it's an act of war and Turkey can technically use this to start a war and ask Nato for help. Boarding ships in international waters who fly under another nations flag is illegal.

[GabonX]

@Snorri

You're right about the guy who posted the videos. The point still stands that these items were used as weapons though..

As for the rest:
A. The commandos were serving as inspectors.

B. There could have been soldiers on the boat already but there's no reason to think there were. If there were, the fighting would have probably have been over already. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that a mob of people with iron rods, slingshots and knives were waiting to lynch the inspectors.

The Israelis boarded five other ships without incident. We can't be totally sure, but it's unlikely that they would just open fire on the crew of the sixth boat for shits and giggles. If that was the plan, they probably would have brought real rifles instead of paintball guns and back up pistols..

C. I see your point here. The fact is that when you attempt to bludgeon someone to death, that person has a right to defend them self regardless of whether or not your attack can be justified.

[icedagger]

C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

Pretty sure they didn't.

It was completely illegal what Israel did. Like, it's an act of war and Turkey can technically use this to start a war and ask Nato for help. Boarding ships in international waters who fly under another nations flag is illegal.

Turkey could technically use anything they like to unilaterally start a war, I doubt it's a causus belli that would be accepted by Nato though. I'm not disputing what israel did was illegal, but it doesn't follow that the people on the ship had the right to shoot at and stab the Israeli sailors.

[GabonX]

C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

Pretty sure they didn't.

It was completely illegal what Israel did. Like, it's an act of war and Turkey can technically use this to start a war and ask Nato for help. Boarding ships in international waters who fly under another nations flag is illegal.

Admittedly the Israeli forces should have waited a few miles for diplomatic reasons.

If the international community had shown any effort to demonstrate resolve in stopping the illegal flow of weapons to terrorists in Gaza, this incident may have been averted..

[GabonX]

C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

Pretty sure they didn't.

It was completely illegal what Israel did. Like, it's an act of war and Turkey can technically use this to start a war and ask Nato for help. Boarding ships in international waters who fly under another nations flag is illegal.

Turkey could technically use anything they like to unilaterally start a war, I doubt it's a causus belli that would be accepted by Nato though. I'm not disputing what israel did was illegal, but it doesn't follow that the people on the ship had the right to shoot at and stab the Israeli sailors.

Referring to international law is ridiculous when there is no body to enforce it and all sides are breaking it.

Sometimes common sense and the need for security trump the ideals of detached third parties..

[Snorri1234]

C.) They were actually fully in their rights to attack the commandos. It was dumb and cost lives, but they technically had the right to beat soldiers from their boat.

Pretty sure they didn't.

It was completely illegal what Israel did. Like, it's an act of war and Turkey can technically use this to start a war and ask Nato for help. Boarding ships in international waters who fly under another nations flag is illegal.

Turkey could technically use anything they like to unilaterally start a war, I doubt it's a causus belli that would be accepted by Nato though. I'm not disputing what israel did was illegal, but it doesn't follow that the people on the ship had the right to shoot at and stab the Israeli sailors.

You don't understand, having your boat boarded in international waters is an accepted casus belli for Nato. That doesn't mean they will start a war, or that Nato members will support them, but it does mean that they're fully in their rights to start a war.

Also, you absolutely do have the right to shoot soldiers who are entering your boat illegally. You can shoot pirates too. (That doesn't mean you should or that it's morally the correct thing to do always, but you won't get prosecuted for it.) It's selfdefense. Not being allowed to would make the law about international waters pointless.

[jay_a2j]

The UN is more concerned about Israel stopping weapon smuggling after the boats refused to be inspected by the Gaza Blockage than they are about Iran having enriched uranium. The anti-Semitism of the world that goes unchallenged is astounding.

In fact, what Israel is doing is directly contrary to Judaic law as well as International law, both of which require humane and reasonable treatment of occupied peoples.

That's presumptive on a number of levels..

She ends up on the wrong side of a plethora of arguments huh?

[Snorri1234]

@Snorri

You're right about the guy who posted the videos. The point still stands that these items were used as weapons though..

So?

As for the rest:
A. The commandos were serving as inspectors.

No they were not. They were serving as soldiers. They boarded a boat in the middle of the night carrying guns. Why didn't they wait till the boat was in international waters and request permission to enter? Inspectors need jurisdiction anyway.

B. There could have been soldiers on the boat already but there's no reason to think there were. If there were, the fighting would have probably have been over already. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that a mob of people with iron rods, slingshots and knives were waiting to lynch the inspectors.

attack soldiers.

But it doesn't even matter. If you attempt to board a ship in the middle of the night carrying guns you get what you came for.

C. I see your point here. The fact is that when you attempt to bludgeon someone to death, that person has a right to defend them self regardless of whether or not your attack can be justified.

No they haven't. If I break into your house and you wave a gun in my face (or run at me with a baseball bat) I'm not allowed to kill you.

[PLAYER57832]

@ Player

When you put forth something more than incendiary accusations and presumptions we can talk. You're making statements which require substance to back them up. Saying that "Jews have been stealing land from Palestinians for a thousand years" goes beyond the realm of normal criticism and really does enter the realm of anti-semitism.

Still haven't quite learned to read, I see.

What I said was that Israel, through its courts, have been taking lands held by Palestiniens for hundreds, even thousands of years. It is well documented by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, various UN bodies, etc.

Similarly, the policy of knocking down homes when a relative runs afoul of Israel is so well documented only an idiot would deny it. Israel brags about it, considers the policy perfectly OK, though it does break international law.

Here is an Amnesty International synopsis:
Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories Human Rights
Human Rights Concerns


Palestinians Denied Fair Access to Water
Israel uses more than 80 per cent of the water from the Mountain Aquifer, the main source of underground water in Israel and the OPT, while restricting Palestinian access to a mere 20 per cent.

In a new extensive report, Amnesty International revealed the extent to which Israel's discriminatory water policies and practices are denying Palestinians their right to access to water. » Read the report

General Country Conditions:

The human rights situation in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories has deteriorated to an unprecedented level and continues to worsen. The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory has entered its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence, abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law by both sides is prevalent. Civilians in both Israel and the Occupied Territories have borne the brunt of the violence in the region.

Human Rights Concerns:

AI concerns can be defined by distinct geographical areas and how and by whom they are governed: Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories which include east Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

AI concerns in Israel have included ill-treatment and torture of detainees in custody, excessive use of force; and the detention of Conscientious Objectors (COs), jailed for refusing to perform required military service.

In areas under control of the Palestinian Authority, concerns include excessive use of force, arbitrary arrests, ill-treatment, torture and the use of administrative detention to jail individuals without charge or trial. Some detainees also do not receive adequate medical attention. Read more...

Concerns with violations by Israeli forces in the West Bank and east Jerusalem include the eviction of Palestinian families from their homes and demolition of their homes; punitive arrests, unfair trials, ill-treatment and torture of detainees and the use of lethal force to subdue nonviolent demonstrations. In contravention of international law, Israel also continues to expand illegal settlements and restrict the movement of Palestinians using some 600 roadblocks and checkpoints. AI is also disturbed about discriminatory policies affecting access to water for Palestinians.

This is NOT a complete list, there is more information on the website. The Human Rights Watch site has more information on the current Gaza blockade and recent war.

The UN commission on Refugees has had information in the past, but all I see now is information on Gaza. If you have paid attention at all to news on Israel you could not dispute what I have said, though.

Oh, and the official position of Israel is that the Palestiniens just don't exist, that they are "just another group of Arabs" and therefore can just move to other Arab land.

I also can't find anything about the supposed Jewish law you're referring to.

I quoted the Jewish Book of Why, because it was a handy source. However, as I said, my point was not to debate Talmudic law. I am definitely not an expert. As I said, my point is that objecting to Israeli policies doesn't equate to anti-semitism. It doesn't take much research to find that many Jews, particularly those within Israel, feel that their government is not acting according to Jewish law. My information comes from interviews with such observant Jews.

Until you actually support your incendiary and provacative statements with facts, there's really no need to delve into them.

Its exactly that kind of "knee-jerk" reaction, that is why these situations have been allowed to escalate to such an extent.