another terrorist group

[karel]

I think wiki leaks should be classified as a terrorist group and the founder of wiki should be hung by a rope....what a jack ass...talk about putting everyone at risk

[Timminz]

I've only had time to look at a handful of the Wikileaks cables, but while many may just confirm certain widely held theories, they also provide tremendous insight into the day-to-day analysis of Embassy officials and a fascinating record of conversations with world leaders, security chiefs, senior politicians and diplomats across the Middle East. It's a treasure trove for any journalist or analyst to understand US positions and compare them to public positions, but even more of a find for doing the same for Middle Eastern states.

There is so much information flowing around about U.S. policy - and often, a good deal of transparency - that a smart observer with good contacts can get a good idea of what's happening. Not so in the Arab world, and the contents of the conversations Arab leader are having with their patron state are not out in the Arab public domain or easily guessable, as anyone who reads the meaningless press statements of government press agencies will tell you. Cablegate is in important record from the Arab perspective, perhaps more than from the U.S. one.

Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad opines that the wikileak cables are just a US conspiracy...

Iran today hit back at the latest batch of Wikileaks revelations, with its president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, claiming that the leaks were part of a psychological warfare campaign against his country.

[PLAYER57832]

I am generally for transparency, but this does seem to go beyond what is OK. That so much of this is "nothing", embarrassing, but of no real substance else, makes it worse.

Further, as more of this junk is released, the less people will pay attention. People will pay less attention and more steps will be taken to tighten security. That means it becomes far less likely we will hear of things we ought to hear about. All-in-all, a poor job, from any direction.

[GabonX]

I think wiki leaks should be classified as a terrorist group and the founder of wiki should be hung by a rope....what a jack ass...talk about putting everyone at risk

I am generally for transparency, but this does seem to go beyond what is OK. That so much of this is "nothing", embarrassing, but of no real substance else, makes it worse.

Further, as more of this junk is released, the less people will pay attention. People will pay less attention and more steps will be taken to tighten security. That means it becomes far less likely we will hear of things we ought to hear about. All-in-all, a poor job, from any direction.

Baa

[Pedronicus]

It turns out that Saudi Arabia (that country with loads of military hardware bought from the good old US of A) kept pushing America to invade Iran.

Why the f*ck can't Saudi Arabians launch attacks against Iran using their own men and machines?
The sooner Saudi Arabia runs out of oil and goes back to being a desert shit hole, the better.

It also turns out that Israel came out of these leaks smelling of roses.

[GabonX]

Also:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If we can't agree to follow the First Amendment we may as well give up such things entirely.

[GabonX]

It turns out that Saudi Arabia (that country with loads of military hardware bought from the good old US of A) kept pushing America to invade Iran.

Why the f*ck can't Saudi Arabians launch attacks against Iran using their own men and machines?
The sooner Saudi Arabia runs out of oil and goes back to being a desert shit hole, the better.

It also turns out that Israel came out of these leaks smelling of roses.

Israel and Saudi Arabia have their hands tied by the US..

The US is still entertaining the idea that sanctions will now or ever can work and that Russia and China will act as allies

[saxitoxin]

I've only had time to look at a handful of the Wikileaks cables, but while many may just confirm certain widely held theories, they also provide tremendous insight into the day-to-day analysis of Embassy officials and a fascinating record of conversations with world leaders, security chiefs, senior politicians and diplomats across the Middle East. It's a treasure trove for any journalist or analyst to understand US positions and compare them to public positions, but even more of a find for doing the same for Middle Eastern states.

There is so much information flowing around about U.S. policy - and often, a good deal of transparency - that a smart observer with good contacts can get a good idea of what's happening. Not so in the Arab world, and the contents of the conversations Arab leader are having with their patron state are not out in the Arab public domain or easily guessable, as anyone who reads the meaningless press statements of government press agencies will tell you. Cablegate is in important record from the Arab perspective, perhaps more than from the U.S. one.

Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad opines that the wikileak cables are just a US conspiracy...

Iran today hit back at the latest batch of Wikileaks revelations, with its president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, claiming that the leaks were part of a psychological warfare campaign against his country.

Once again, Ol' Saxi beat Ol' Mahmmy to the punch in this thread ...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=131986#p2890485

There was a headline in this AM's Monitor that said "Israel finds unexpected PR boon from diplomatic cable release."

Unexpected? Unplanned? Perhaps not ...

Cryptome founder and former wikileaks board member John Young has whistleblew several months ago that the CIA has provided direct funding to Wikileaks.

It's quite possible I'm wrong but I don't see Wikileaks as anything more than a U.S. program to selectively leak their own information to help generate a groundswell of public opinion to unleash war on Iran. At best. More likely it's a honeypot operation to interfere with legitimate leaks.

However, if ol' Saxi is wrong and Wikileaks aren't a U.S. puppet then they are a heroic and morally justified operation. The old hag Clinton and her sugar daddy Obama ordering diplomats to steal the French ambassadors credit card number or to find out the British ambassador's computer passwords are crimes that deserve exposing. And, if these are legit leaks ol' Saxi is waiting anxiously for the old stuff (supposedly the upcoming releases go back to 1966). You young naysayers who dismiss poor ol' Saxi like some ol' coot may get what's coming to yer! I'll take a switch to yer hides!

[GabonX]

I think that the endangerment to allies, the personal insults by diplomats, and the mistaken attacks on civilians released in this and in previous packages indicate that wikileaks does circulate information that the US would not want to have shared. The idea that the US could release info through wikileaks is an interesting possibility, but it seems clear that in every case so far, more has come out than would have been desired.

Saxi.. Regardless of whether or not these leaks are intentional, do you doubt the authenticity of any of the reports so far?

[saxitoxin]

Saxi.. Regardless of whether or not these leaks are intentional, do you doubt the authenticity of any of the reports so far?

That's a good point and, no, even if this were a planned leak it would have to be of real cables. Forged cables of this quantity would involve a conspiracy of thousands of people which would be ridiculous to imagine outside of some Ian Fleming novel. That said, given the sheer quantity of information generated by these missives it would be wholly possible to select only those cables that supported a specific position while not releasing contrary cables. Also, so far as I've seen, nothing released so far has been classified above Secret and mostly - it seems - are recitations of meetings or analysis of open-source information. I think Top Secret cables that contained Signals or Human intelligence would be more interesting in supporting the conclusions the Charge d'Affairs in Yemen or the 3rd Deputy Legation Minister in Singapore or wherever are making.

Though, I could be wrong and you do raise a valid point that merits consideration.

[saxitoxin]

WMR has learned from Asian intelligence sources that there is a strong belief in some Asian countries, particularly China and Thailand, that the website Wikileaks, which purports to publish classified and sensitive documents while guaranteeing anonymity to the providers, is linked to U.S. cyber-warfare and computer espionage operations.

Our Asian intelligence sources report the following: “Wikileaks is running a disinformation campaign, crying persecution by U.S. intelligence- when it is U.S. intelligence itself. Its [Wikileaks'] activities in Iceland are totally suspect.” Wikileaks claims it is the victim of a new COINTELPRO [Counter Intelligence Program] operation directed by the Pentagon and various U.S. intelligence agencies. WMR’s sources believe that it is Wikileaks that is part and parcel of a cyber-COINTELPRO campaign, such as that proposed by President Obama’s “information czar,” Dr. Cass Sunstein.

In January 2007, John Young, who runs Cryptome, a site that publishes a wealth of sensitive and classified information, left Wikileaks, claiming the operation was a CIA front. Young also published some 150 email messages sent by Wikileaks activists on cryptome. WMR has confirmed Young’s contention that Wikileaks is a CIA front operation. Wikileaks is intimately involved in a $20 million CIA operation that U.S.-based Chinese dissidents that hack into computers in China.

http://truthrss.com/2010/07/28/wikileaks-cointelpro/

[GabonX]

[i]WMR has learned from Asian intelligence sourcesthat there is a strong belief in some Asian countries, particularly China and Thailand...
http://truthrss.com/2010/07/28/wikileaks-cointelpro/

To put things in perspective, there have been some very unflattering things released in regards to China and their activities...

You have an interesting choice of sources Saxi.

[saxitoxin]

I think wiki leaks should be classified as a terrorist group and the founder of wiki should be hung by a rope....what a jack ass...talk about putting everyone at risk

I am generally for transparency, but this does seem to go beyond what is OK. That so much of this is "nothing", embarrassing, but of no real substance else, makes it worse.

Further, as more of this junk is released, the less people will pay attention. People will pay less attention and more steps will be taken to tighten security. That means it becomes far less likely we will hear of things we ought to hear about. All-in-all, a poor job, from any direction.

Baa

+1 for Gabs

regardless as to whether or not WL is real or fake, this blind-trust-in-the-leadership attitude exhibited by these two commenters is how a certain country in central Europe stumbled into committing the Holocaust

[PLAYER57832]

regardless as to whether or not WL is real or fake, this blind-trust-in-the-leadership attitude exhibited by these two commenters is how a certain country in central Europe stumbled into committing the Holocaust

Trust in leadership??? From what I have seen, this stuff is just stupid. Embarrassing, but not in a fun way, just in a "he farted at dinner" way. It's just good manners to ignore it. I mean, so a lot of Arab countries are not too happy with Iran, some leaders made dumb comments, etc, etc... big deal and not particular true secrets. So, unless there is something really good that all the news media is ignoring, its [yawn].

But, like I said, these mild releases will make it less likely real stuff gets released, when it needs to be AND if this keeps up, will mean people pay less and less attention when something that needs releasing gets out. Sort of the opposite of the Pentagon papers.

[BigBallinStalin]

Saxi.. Regardless of whether or not these leaks are intentional, do you doubt the authenticity of any of the reports so far?

That's a good point and, no, even if this were a planned leak it would have to be of real cables. Forged cables of this quantity would involve a conspiracy of thousands of people which would be ridiculous to imagine outside of some Ian Fleming novel. That said, given the sheer quantity of information generated by these missives it would be wholly possible to select only those cables that supported a specific position while not releasing contrary cables. Also, so far as I've seen, nothing released so far has been classified above Secret and mostly - it seems - are recitations of meetings or analysis of open-source information. I think Top Secret cables that contained Signals or Human intelligence would be more interesting in supporting the conclusions the Charge d'Affairs in Yemen or the 3rd Deputy Legation Minister in Singapore or wherever are making.

Though, I could be wrong and you do raise a valid point that merits consideration.

Some may not be forged, but couldn't some simply be misinformation without forgery?

[saxitoxin]

From what I have seen, this stuff is just stupid.

I suspect the next time the people of France are deciding whether to re-integrate their forces into the NATO unified command structure - as they just did last year after a hard-fought parliamentary fight - they would have a compelling interest to first know that Obama is ordering his spies to steal their diplomat's computer passwords, credit card numbers, gather DNA and retinal scans, etc. One would imagine that would be useful to know what a country is doing before putting your entire national armed forces under the command of that other country.

It's just good manners to ignore it.

Naturally, you and the other members of your flock are free to plug your ears and cover your eyes at the trough, if you like.

[Pedronicus]

I'm so grateful to Wikileaks. This is the first time the news has actually contained anything new (and interesting) for ages.

I also note that the tabloids are all shunning it in favour of X-Factor.

[PLAYER57832]

I also note that the tabloids are all shunning it in favour of X-Factor.

This would be a bonus, though I don't pay attention to tabloids (I understand that UK tabloids are much better than those in the US, though).

[saxitoxin]

I also note that the tabloids are all shunning it in favour of X-Factor.

This would be a bonus

Yes, musn't let the little people know what they need not know. Have faith in the ruler caste, Pedro. Do not question their judgment. They only want what is best for you. Either join Player and the others queuing politely and quietly at the trough or get the f*ck outta the way! YOU WILL BE CRUSHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpPOYJHtjbU

[GabonX]

Saxi.. Regardless of whether or not these leaks are intentional, do you doubt the authenticity of any of the reports so far?

That's a good point and, no, even if this were a planned leak it would have to be of real cables. Forged cables of this quantity would involve a conspiracy of thousands of people which would be ridiculous to imagine outside of some Ian Fleming novel. That said, given the sheer quantity of information generated by these missives it would be wholly possible to select only those cables that supported a specific position while not releasing contrary cables. Also, so far as I've seen, nothing released so far has been classified above Secret and mostly - it seems - are recitations of meetings or analysis of open-source information. I think Top Secret cables that contained Signals or Human intelligence would be more interesting in supporting the conclusions the Charge d'Affairs in Yemen or the 3rd Deputy Legation Minister in Singapore or wherever are making.

Though, I could be wrong and you do raise a valid point that merits consideration.

Some may not be forged, but couldn't some simply be misinformation without forgery?

Like what?

[GabonX]

I'm so grateful to Wikileaks. This is the first time the news has actually contained anything new (and interesting) for ages.

I also note that the tabloids are all shunning it in favour of X-Factor.

As a reader of DEBKAfile most of this is just verification. This information has been available for some time if you were willing to look at it.

[GabonX]

regardless as to whether or not WL is real or fake, this blind-trust-in-the-leadership attitude exhibited by these two commenters is how a certain country in central Europe stumbled into committing the Holocaust

Trust in leadership??? From what I have seen, this stuff is just stupid. Embarrassing, but not in a fun way, just in a "he farted at dinner" way. It's just good manners to ignore it. I mean, so a lot of Arab countries are not too happy with Iran, some leaders made dumb comments, etc, etc... big deal and not particular true secrets. So, unless there is something really good that all the news media is ignoring, its [yawn].

We're talking about a quarter million documents that have only been out for about a day.. Mainstream news organizations like the New York Times have pledged not to fully disclose what these documents contain:
The Times has taken care to exclude, in its articles and in supplementary material, in print and online, information that would endanger confidential informants or compromise national security. The Times’s redactions were shared with other news organizations and communicated to WikiLeaks, in the hope that they would similarly edit the documents they planned to post online.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world ... rnote.html

It's going to take a bit of time to go through the details of this release. I wouldn't be surprised if there are still unturned stones in the first two packages...

[saxitoxin]

It seems there are two scenarios ...

Scenario 1 - Wikileaks is a CIA public diplomacy or honeypot operation, in which case Obama is guilty of great crimes against democracy as democracy can only function in an open environment. When the government begins surreptitiously fabricating news and covertly placing it into the public discourse it is impossible for a democracy to function. In this scenario Americans should deal with him as they see fit, such as impeachment and removal.

Scenario 2 - Wikileaks is an independent source of information, in which case it's proved that Obama is ordering violations of all means of diplomatic covenants by ordering his staff to steal information from friendly foreign powers to use to manipulate opinion to drum-up support for war. This is an affront to international peace and is a war crime. Grand Admiral Raeder and Baron von Neurath were sentenced to life imprisonment at Nuremberg for "participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a breach of peace" with evidence more flimsy than this. In this scenario Obama should be taken into custody by the Dutch Marechaussee and extradited to The Hague to be paraded before the International Criminal Court.

[nietzsche]

I am forever pessimist. I used to believe, back when I was young (5 years ago) that when people knew what was going on, that when we had some sort of proof.. things would change, people would demand and succeed in punishing those who deserved it.

But we know a lot of stuff now, and we don't care, and nothing happens really. For instance we know that W. Bush didn't win in 2000. We know that Iraq didn't have WMD. What has happened with that? Oh, but Clinton surely deserve it for getting a blowjob.

In Mexico we know that Salinas didn't win in 1988 and in 2006 we allowed the same thing to happen (exactly, one candidate was winning, the computers are shutdown and when they are back up, the other candidate is winning!).

Why do we want to know really? Moral judgements don't make much to these guys. Are we so eager to prove moral superiority? Wake me up when people is ready to do something.

[GabonX]

It seems there are two scenarios ...

Scenario 1 - Wikileaks is a CIA public diplomacy or honeypot operation, in which case Obama is guilty of great crimes against democracy as democracy can only function in an open environment. When the government begins surreptitiously fabricating news and covertly placing it into the public discourse it is impossible for a democracy to function. In this scenario Americans should deal with him as they see fit, such as impeachment and removal.

Scenario 2 - Wikileaks is an independent source of information, in which case it's proved that Obama is ordering violations of all means of diplomatic covenants by ordering his staff to steal information from friendly foreign powers to use to manipulate opinion to drum-up support for war.

I don't see scenario 1 as being too likely for reasons I've mentioned previously. I don't really agree with scenario 2 either as to me it looks like Obama is (mistakenly) taking great measures to avoid war with Iran.

But we know a lot of stuff now, and we don't care, and nothing happens really. For instance we know that W. Bush didn't win in 2000. We know that Iraq didn't have WMD.

Actually we know that Iraq did have WMD in the form of chemical weapons. There is also strong evidence that a more substantive WMD program existed and that the components of that program were extracted to Syria with Russian assistance prior to the Iraq war.

I agree with you in that Bush probably should have lost the 2000 election.