A thought on the Tea Party....

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PLAYER57832
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Night Strike wrote:
What can be left to market forces in your opinion? You argue against the market in every single market discussed on this site. The open market should not exist based on your posts as long as there exists anything unfair for anybody. If land use is not supposed to be left up to market forces, then why do you support the forcing of those lands into industrial uses through government taxation? Removing estate taxes means families can keep their farming lands. Instead, because of the massive taxation, farmers have to sell off their equipment and land just to pay off the government debt. Remove the taxes and all that money can be used to continue and expand the farming. Get government involved and their high prices force people out of business.

Most things should be left to market forces. Also, this isn't an "all or nothing" deal.

Some land is just plain and simply better for forest, some for agriculture, etc. Broadly, markets have already laid out some of the sensible allocations, but you don't have to look far to see where it fails. The failure is basically because agriculture and agricultural land is artificially low in value. Our nation is so wealthy that most people don't even think about where food comes from and that strongly alters decisions. This was not always the case, but again, that gets into an involved topic. I am not talking about micromanagement here, but broad classifications are warrented. I used to see acres of farmland along 101, I-5, etc in California. Now, I see houses after houses. These complete alterations of the landscape come with costs only barely understood. Even the basic climate of central California has altered. Sacramento, for example, used to cool down every evening. It would be over 100 every day in teh summer, but you could count on it dropping to 60 at night. Now.. it doesn't. This means more air conditioning, more water use, but also impacts the ecology. Almost no one has really been willing to tackle the issue of water out west. Etc.

Beyond that, basic education (not specialized education) has to be mandated and standard so we have a unified nation; transportation, treaties and such, all need to be governmental; I would also include healthcare. I would set a base wage, but not upper wage. I would absolutely set rules for universal safety of workers, etc. (those are not optional items) AND, I would require that companies do studies to show that the chemicals they produce and put out into the world are not generally harmful. (except where harm is intended, of course).

But, when it comes to making and selling goods... all of that needs to be left up to the market.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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PLAYER57832 wrote:Beyond that, basic education (not specialized education) has to be mandated and standard so we have a unified nation; transportation, treaties and such, all need to be governmental; I would also include healthcare. I would set a base wage, but not upper wage. I would absolutely set rules for universal safety of workers, etc. (those are not optional items) AND, I would require that companies do studies to show that the chemicals they produce and put out into the world are not generally harmful. (except where harm is intended, of course).


We've already seen that national education has dropped our success rates below that of other nations (a stat frequently ignored when saying we should be like other nations). Yes treaties must be governmental, but transportation doesn't have to be. The first trans-continental railroad was built by private companies, not the government. And should the methods of transportation like cars and trains and planes be nationalized? Definitely not. Health care already is nationalized; insurance should never be.

Worker safety rules should never be universal. We saw the harm of those rules first hand when gulf shore workers were trying to clean up the oil spills. Because of OSHA regulations, workers could only be outside for 20 minutes out of every hour, even though they work and live all day, every day in those conditions. Universal standards caused the clean up to take much longer than it could have. Safety rules must depend on the climate when working outside and the type of machines or chemicals being used inside. As for testing every chemical made, that would cause our economy to come to a halt in regards to new things being made. You want every chemical to be tested for 30-50 years before they are allowed to be used? Because that's how long it takes some things to actually be determined to have an affect on people or the climate. You would destroy the materials science industry.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Night Strike wrote:We've already seen that national education has dropped our success rates below that of other nations (a stat frequently ignored when saying we should be like other nations).

No, it actually worked quite well in the 60's. The problem now is that the right wing insists on prohibiting so much real education and forces school boards to pay attorneys so they can actually teach real science.

Night Strike wrote:Yes treaties must be governmental, but transportation doesn't have to be. The first trans-continental railroad was built by private companies, not the government.
LOL
Private companies given the right to cease property pretty much at will, given various othter governmental bonuses. No, these companies were "private" only in the sense that the owners got exceedingly wealthy.


Night Strike wrote:and should the methods of transportation like cars and trains and planes be nationalized?
Planes already are, as is our road system. Trains, by contrast are more private and... well, even though it is far more efficient to transport goods by rail, we don't in this country.

Night Strike wrote:Health care already is nationalized; insurance should never be.
Healthcare is only partially nationalized.. particularly the parts so often touted as making our country great, the research and so forth. But, you like to ignore those facts and trounce on to claim that socialized medicine in other countries is a big failure, though the evidence shows the opposite.

Night Strike wrote: As for testing every chemical made, that would cause our economy to come to a halt in regards to new things being made.
It would also mean that future generations won't be saddled with the HUGE bills we all now face -- bills in medical costs, cleanup, etc and absolutely reduced production. Just because someone is making money doesn't mean its beneficial. Selling heroine and cocaine can make you very wealthy. It's also illegal for a reason.

Night Strike wrote: You want every chemical to be tested for 30-50 years before they are allowed to be used? Because that's how long it takes some things to actually be determined to have an affect on people or the climate. You would destroy the materials science industry.
Twenty would do fine or even just 5 years would be a great improvement, as would requiring testing under more 'real life" conditions, like heat and sun. We can do without most of those chemicals. For every one that adds a true benefit, are many more that cause irreperable harm. So, yes.

And, as for "destroying the materials industry". Other industries will quickly take its place. There are a lot of other avenues for advancement. This one is not cost-effective to society and its time we began acknowledging that instead of pretending that the future will deal with any harm.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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just ignore her. I swear she just makes stuff up as she goes
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:just ignore her. I swear she just makes stuff up as she goes

You have yet to even acknowledge the data I presented showing true costs of national health systems in other areas. You criticize a PhD academic on the grounds of a TIME article about that academic's work and you present a chart that doesn't show what you claimed it shows. Yet, you claim I am the one making stuff up.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:just ignore her. I swear she just makes stuff up as she goes

You have yet to even acknowledge the data I presented showing true costs of national health systems in other areas. You criticize a PhD academic on the grounds of a TIME article about that academic's work and you present a chart that doesn't show what you claimed it shows. Yet, you claim I am the one making stuff up.


My chart shows rising prices. (oil is up, ya know) and don't give me a reason or excuse why oil is up...ITS UP! The PHD notes prices aren't rising. The PHD is wrong and I will take him on any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You make shit up daily

Here is the chart

Image

It seems you have argued the position that the price of oil has not gone up last year, or the price of wheat, or cotton, or gold, or silver. What is so wrong about this chart or the way I present it? (by showing it!)
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:
It seems you have argued the position that the price of oil has not gone up last year, or the price of wheat, or cotton, or gold, or silver. What is so wrong about this chart or the way I present it? (by showing it!)

No, that isn't what I argued... at all. I said your chart did not disprove the PhD authors position. I also did say that most commodities don't directly impact consumer goods, which is true. You then launched into a diatribe about how of course the price of wheat would impact the costs of General Mills products. Well, it doesn't.

Ultimately, my main comment was that you were criticizing a paper based on a short interpretation by TIME and that this would lead you to make a very inaccurate assessment. That, too, was correct.

From my part, I was simply hoping to get some actual commentary on the paper. I have been dissappointed. Most of you have clearly not even read the things written by the guy you criticize.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

Post by Phatscotty »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
It seems you have argued the position that the price of oil has not gone up last year, or the price of wheat, or cotton, or gold, or silver. What is so wrong about this chart or the way I present it? (by showing it!)

No, that isn't what I argued... at all. I said your chart did not disprove the PhD authors position. I also did say that most commodities don't directly impact consumer goods...


changing the subject. the point is not who the rising prices effect, the point is that prices are rising, and the PHD denies that.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote: changing the subject. the point is not who the rising prices effect, the point is that prices are rising, and the PHD denies that.
No the point is which prices rose and by how much. Read the article.

Again, my basic point in that thread was that three of you came in here commenting about how idiotic this guy was when you had not even bothered to actually read what he said. That, itself speaks volumes and pretty much shows how little credibility you have. Then you just pulled out a chart to try and debate me, but you STILL did not bother with the actual article, proving yet again that all you care about is your own opinion.

In THIS thread, my basic point was that you all want to act as if the founding fathers somehow wrote in unchangeable gold. I say they were men who had some wonderful ideas. One of them was compromising. That BIG part, however, seems utterly lost on your pro-tea party arguments. To claim that we have to follow what they set forth simply because they set it forth is as idiotic as claiming we should have kept slavery because they allowed it.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote: changing the subject. the point is not who the rising prices effect, the point is that prices are rising, and the PHD denies that.
No the point is which prices rose and by how much. Read the article.


No, this is my original point, and here is the PHD's comment that I picked out, here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=130781&start=0

PHD wrote
Nonetheless, inflation, so far. Not so much. Palin herself seems to have missed the fact that prices in the past year or so have barely budged.
Actually, what my chart shows, is that prices have exploded for the basics.

I did, and I have already quoted the author. This is freakin pointless. How you gonna do all this arguing and spending all this time, only to completely forget (ignore?) the original assertion from the PHD that prices arent rising, and Sarah Palin is dumb for thinking they are. I can't get more simple than to show you a chart of essential commodities and their ASTRONOMICAL RISE in price in Obama's first year...

Obama printed a shitload of money, devaluing the dollar, and people who sell commodities need more weaker dollars for the same unit of X

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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:she just makes stuff up as she goes


THAT IS NOT TRUE, SCOTT, AND YOU VERY WELL KNOW IT. :x

edit: Oh wait - we're talking about her? Sorry, my bad - yeah, that's true.

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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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The Tea Party is growing. It has no budget and needs no money. It has no property and needs no guns. It has no generals, leaders, authorities, or gurus. It has no soldiers, followers, slaves, or servants. Everyone in the Tea Party is a supreme commander-in-chief who takes orders from no one and gives no orders to any, with each individual marching to his or her own step forever into the future.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:The Tea Party is growing. It has no budget and needs no money. It has no property and needs no guns. It has no generals, leaders, authorities, or gurus. It has no soldiers, followers, slaves, or servants. Everyone in the Tea Party is a supreme commander-in-chief who takes orders from no one and gives no orders to any, with each individual marching to his or her own step forever into the future.

Oh, so now the Tea Party is the anarchy party? I thought it was the "no taxes" party?
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:she just makes stuff up as she goes


THAT IS NOT TRUE, SCOTT, AND YOU VERY WELL KNOW IT. :x

edit: Oh wait - we're talking about her? Sorry, my bad - yeah, that's true.

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Well, I must be winning, since you all seem to descend to personnal attacks.

And while I have referred to professors in the past, I state so. I don't claim that an unreferenced chart or article is somehow valid, verified information. I state that this is what I was told.. take it or leave it. Unlike common media fodder, scientific journal articles, papers, etc are not always put on the 'net and when they are, often are not available for free.

Phattscotty and a few others seem to be under the illusion that simply finding one other statement agreeing with their view, or even many, makes their idea more valid than anyone else's. I may not always post verifiable references, but at least I understand what verification means.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:she just makes stuff up as she goes


THAT IS NOT TRUE, SCOTT, AND YOU VERY WELL KNOW IT. :x

edit: Oh wait - we're talking about her? Sorry, my bad - yeah, that's true.

Image

Well, I must be winning, since you all seem to descend to personnal attacks.


no, you make stuff up as you go along. None of it makes any sense, and you only do it to agitate people and ruin genuine intelligent discussion. It's not a personal attack, just a fact.

I am asking you nicely, don't talk to me anymore. I don't care about any of the jibberish you have to say, or any of the false double misplaced guilt, triple non-sequitors....I don't want to talk with you about anything, there is no reason for us to communicate. I don't know why you do it, I just know that you do it, and I am ending my involvement with it. There is nothing for me, you should agree that whatever I say obviously holds nothing for you. There is no need for us to respond to each other anymore.

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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:she just makes stuff up as she goes


THAT IS NOT TRUE, SCOTT, AND YOU VERY WELL KNOW IT. :x

edit: Oh wait - we're talking about her? Sorry, my bad - yeah, that's true.

Image

Well, I must be winning, since you all seem to descend to personnal attacks.


no, you make stuff up as you go along. None of it makes any sense, and you only do it to agitate people and ruin genuine intelligent discussion. It's not a personal attack, just a fact.

A "fact" when you feel free to ignore any information you dislike.

The POINT is that you went off with several posts criticizing a 39 page peer-reviewed journal article based on a few paragraphs of commentary that appeared in TIME magazine and then proceeded to "explain" that referring to the original article was not necessary and irrelevant.

I stated a while ago I was no longer interested in debating the actual article. Intially, yes, but neither you nor nightstrike nor most of the other posters here have shown any interest in real debate over the guy's paper. You merely want to criticize and laugh at anyone who disagrees with you.

Phatscotty wrote:I am asking you nicely, don't talk to me anymore. I don't care about any of the jibberish you have to say, or any of the false double misplaced guilt, triple non-sequitors....I don't want to talk with you about anything, there is no reason for us to communicate. I don't know why you do it, I just know that you do it, and I am ending my involvement with it. There is nothing for me, you should agree that whatever I say obviously holds nothing for you. There is no need for us to respond to each other anymore.

PLAYER IS BANNED FROM RESPONDING TO MY POSTS!

As long as you post, I will respond with corrections and comments as appropriate.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:The Tea Party is growing. It has no budget and needs no money. It has no property and needs no guns. It has no generals, leaders, authorities, or gurus. It has no soldiers, followers, slaves, or servants. Everyone in the Tea Party is a supreme commander-in-chief who takes orders from no one and gives no orders to any, with each individual marching to his or her own step forever into the future.


Part of the reason I like the Tea Party is because of this. It's the advantage of having a grassroots movement instead of a top-down one. If you've heard of how the left uses Saul Alinsky's tactics of dehumanizing and ridiculing their opposition, then this movement is harder for liberals to attack. Of course they'll still attempt the tactic, as we've seen with the "teabagger" and "racist" label, but ultimately they can't pin it down on one person.

We saw part of that frustration in these midterms where the Dems tried to isolate conservative politicians, but they were only successful with a few. In the end, they weren't able to overcome the message of restraining govt. spending and entitlements. I do think that it will be more difficult to avoid in a presidential election once a candidate gets the nomination to oppose Obama, but ultimately the tactic will just energize everyone within the Tea Party.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:

LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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jonesthecurl wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:

LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

PLAYER IS BANNED FROM RESPONDING TO MY POSTS!


You are actually getting worse at what you do.

Once I have re-iterated the original point three times then it is ok to ignore her, walk away, and politely ask her to ignore me. Even this is only slightly less childish.

She is really pulling the Crazy Ates here... hate, discriminate, agitate.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote: Once I have re-iterated the original point three times ...

Repeating it doesn't suddenly make it valid.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote: Once I have re-iterated the original point three times ...

Repeating it doesn't suddenly make it valid.


it makes it the original point.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

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Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote: Once I have re-iterated the original point three times ...

Repeating it doesn't suddenly make it valid.


it makes it the original point.


But that doesn't make it suddenly valid. Player is correct again.
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

Post by karel »

i have a thought on the tea party...a bunch of washed up wannabes.
they will have their day in the sun,and fade away
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Re: A thought on the Tea Party....

Post by Phatscotty »

karel wrote:i have a thought on the tea party...a bunch of washed up wannabes.
they will have their day in the sun,and fade away


washed up, before they have even been seated? How can you be this angry?
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