Would you flip the switch?

[PLAYER57832]

did you have to go to Vietnam to fight those 'evil Russians???'

No, I defended Tutsis from the Hutus in Rwanda and I'm proud to have done so, you sanctimonious ass. You want to know fucking disgusting and brutal...try on a machete being wielded against your comrades and those you are trying to defend. You don't have the first fucking clue what war is like, but you sure can sit there in your comfortable chair behind your big computer screen and pretend that it's what you think it is.

This is EXACTLY why military morals, crimes within the military cannot ever be the same as civilian ones. (but it is, of course, also not an excuse for things like rape, etc.)

[targetman377]

i do not have enough time to answer right now i will add more this Saturday

[thegreekdog]

The point is that I think nationalism is good, being selfish is good... it makes sense. But it should be balanced by some sort of morality.

Nationalism is not good. It's short-sighted, and only makes sense in a limited perspective. And morality is relative, so it's no good as a balancing factor, if it happens to be the wrong kind of morality.

Nationalism is good for me... I'm not concerned with what happens to future generations, I care about me right now. Is it short-sighted? Yes. Does it have a limited perspective? Yes. Do I care about perspective of the long-term? No.

[natty dread]

The point is that I think nationalism is good, being selfish is good... it makes sense. But it should be balanced by some sort of morality.

Nationalism is not good. It's short-sighted, and only makes sense in a limited perspective. And morality is relative, so it's no good as a balancing factor, if it happens to be the wrong kind of morality.

Nationalism is good for me... I'm not concerned with what happens to future generations, I care about me right now. Is it short-sighted? Yes. Does it have a limited perspective? Yes. Do I care about perspective of the long-term? No.

I guess you're never going to have kids, then.

[thegreekdog]

No, I defended Tutsis from the Hutus in Rwanda and I'm proud to have done so, you sanctimonious ass. You want to know fucking disgusting and brutal...try on a machete being wielded against your comrades and those you are trying to defend. You don't have the first fucking clue what war is like, but you sure can sit there in your comfortable chair behind your big computer screen and pretend that it's what you think it is.

Oh stop Woodruff. You should know by now that Americans are all evil, greedy, pigs who care about their cowboy boots and their big cars and their fancy clothes and their celebrities. And soldiers? Oh please, US soldiers are the absolute pits. US soldiers just go around killing civilians indiscriminately because they only care about themselves... and no, not just a handful of US soldiers... all of them.

But hey, we're just ignorant Americans. We're not enlightened people like those in other parts of the world.

[thegreekdog]

The point is that I think nationalism is good, being selfish is good... it makes sense. But it should be balanced by some sort of morality.

Nationalism is not good. It's short-sighted, and only makes sense in a limited perspective. And morality is relative, so it's no good as a balancing factor, if it happens to be the wrong kind of morality.

Nationalism is good for me... I'm not concerned with what happens to future generations, I care about me right now. Is it short-sighted? Yes. Does it have a limited perspective? Yes. Do I care about perspective of the long-term? No.

I guess you're never going to have kids, then.

I'm not being literal! We're talking theoretically here my man. Frankly, I don't think we should get involved in a war unless someone hits us first.

Plus, if I was really short-sighted, I wouldn't care about the national debt or the deficit and be a member of the Democrat party. ZING!

[Pirlo]

No, I defended Tutsis from the Hutus in Rwanda and I'm proud to have done so, you sanctimonious ass. You want to know fucking disgusting and brutal...try on a machete being wielded against your comrades and those you are trying to defend. You don't have the first fucking clue what war is like, but you sure can sit there in your comfortable chair behind your big computer screen and pretend that it's what you think it is.

If you believe in Patriotism, UNLIKE ME, it's your thoughts and I respect them. I'm not asking you to adopt my thoughts which seem "odd" for people whose minds were fed with patriotism... however, you are in no position to say the above about me as if you know things about myself more than I do... try to live in my region to see what the war is.. do you think you know about war more than I do because you carried out some operations? we both too part in the war... you are in the US Military and I'm in the opposite side with MSF in Iraq and Lebanon, and I've seen how people were torn apart under the name of patriotism. so do not tell me I'm sitting behind my big computer please.

+18 only please
http://membres.lycos.fr/occupation/morts.jpg
http://www.asharqalarabi.org.uk/images1/m_abha-12.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arabic/specials/im ... urteen.gif
http://www.attamaddon.com/Upload/qana(1996).jpg

enjoy a tiny part of what happened in Lebanon 2006 under the name of patriotism....

for me, patriotism is an acceptable form of bigotry...

people used to kill each others under the name of religion... now it's not acceptable at all
then killed each others under the name of race & ethnicity... now it's not acceptable at all
and now, the legitimate justification to kill people is the patriotism...

enough going off topic, no? just to answer the thread question... I'd never get involved in any military job

- AC

[Pirlo]

I have seen the same method when USA and Iran fought each others via "Zionists & Hezbulla" and I have seen how Lebanon & Palestine, rather the whole region was fucked up because of this... let me see your reaction when your own state or city is used as a battle ground under the name of "patriotic sickness"..

Now you are confusing patriotism with economic and political greed.

this is exactly my point... I'm not disagreeing with you at all regarding this point..

but in my opinion, "patriotism" is a sweet term used for justifying wars... in other words, we are deceived by our governments which are pretty controlled by international corporations. don't bite me if you didn't like how I see it.

- AC

[Woodruff]

for me, patriotism is an acceptable form of bigotry...

That's because you so desperately desire to believe the worst of patriotism, rather than recognizing the reality of what it is.

[Woodruff]

No, I defended Tutsis from the Hutus in Rwanda and I'm proud to have done so, you sanctimonious ass. You want to know fucking disgusting and brutal...try on a machete being wielded against your comrades and those you are trying to defend. You don't have the first fucking clue what war is like, but you sure can sit there in your comfortable chair behind your big computer screen and pretend that it's what you think it is.

If you believe in Patriotism, UNLIKE ME, it's your thoughts and I respect them. I'm not asking you to adopt my thoughts which seem "odd" for people whose minds were fed with patriotism... however, you are in no position to say the above about me as if you know things about myself more than I do.

The hell I'm not. You and your bullshit sanctimony about "the evil Russians", as if I've never been on a real battlefield nor ever fought for what really was right as a member of the military. I could probably go into "genocide" a bit more, but I'll avoid getting that personal.

[Symmetry]

just to answer the thread question... I'd never get involved in any military job

- AC

This is a line that's come up a few times over the course of this thread. I think it's avoiding the question. The question is a moral hypothetical, and denying that you'd ever be put in that situation is bunk. The hypothetical situation says that you're already in that situation, with all the responsibilities it entails.

Simply saying "Well- I'd never be there" is pretty poor.

[PLAYER57832]

I have seen the same method when USA and Iran fought each others via "Zionists & Hezbulla" and I have seen how Lebanon & Palestine, rather the whole region was fucked up because of this... let me see your reaction when your own state or city is used as a battle ground under the name of "patriotic sickness"..

Now you are confusing patriotism with economic and political greed.

this is exactly my point... I'm not disagreeing with you at all regarding this point..

but in my opinion, "patriotism" is a sweet term used for justifying wars... in other words, we are deceived by our governments which are pretty controlled by international corporations. don't bite me if you didn't like how I see it.
:

Some people use it that way. Some people try to use "love" to justify murder". Most people stand up and say "no, that is NOT 'love', killing your kids is not "love", killing your girlfriend/boy friend is not "love", and using that term in that way perverts it.

You are attempting to pervert the word "patriotism". If you wish only to take the most negative use of a word, you miss a lot.

Besides, most often, today, it is not "patriotism" that is used, today, in the US to justify wars, it is "defense" and outright economics.

[PLAYER57832]

just to answer the thread question... I'd never get involved in any military job

- AC

This is a line that's come up a few times over the course of this thread. I think it's avoiding the question. The question is a moral hypothetical, and denying that you'd ever be put in that situation is bunk. The hypothetical situation says that you're already in that situation, with all the responsibilities it entails.

Simply saying "Well- I'd never be there" is pretty poor.

Yes, and no. Because our choices build our choices. The truth is that many of us have already decided we either woudl not, could not or simply don't want to be faced with that decision and so have gone in directions with our lives that ensure we will not ever have to do that.

If you want to expand that to an esoteric "would you ever agree to kill millions to save some", then there is no real escape. However, as framed, there is.

And, to repeat my earlier answer, there could be a situation. a plague, etc, where killing many is the only sane answer if we are to continue as humanity. however, the truth is that by the time we realize that IS the only answer.. the opportunity would likely be past already.

[Pirlo]

No, I defended Tutsis from the Hutus in Rwanda and I'm proud to have done so, you sanctimonious ass. You want to know fucking disgusting and brutal...try on a machete being wielded against your comrades and those you are trying to defend. You don't have the first fucking clue what war is like, but you sure can sit there in your comfortable chair behind your big computer screen and pretend that it's what you think it is.

If you believe in Patriotism, UNLIKE ME, it's your thoughts and I respect them. I'm not asking you to adopt my thoughts which seem "odd" for people whose minds were fed with patriotism... however, you are in no position to say the above about me as if you know things about myself more than I do.

The hell I'm not. You and your bullshit sanctimony about "the evil Russians", as if I've never been on a real battlefield nor ever fought for what really was right as a member of the military. I could probably go into "genocide" a bit more, but I'll avoid getting that personal.

keep offending me, I don't care. just because I disagree with you, it doesn't mean that my thoughts are "bullshit" or I even have "sanctimony"... thanks for responding to my post.

You are attempting to pervert the word "patriotism". If you wish only to take the most negative use of a word, you miss a lot.

if you think I have failed to see the bright side of Patriotism, feel free to mention some points/aspects of that side.

This is a line that's come up a few times over the course of this thread. I think it's avoiding the question. The question is a moral hypothetical, and denying that you'd ever be put in that situation is bunk. The hypothetical situation says that you're already in that situation, with all the responsibilities it entails.

Simply saying "Well- I'd never be there" is pretty poor.

again, sorry for taking your thread off topic, and sorry for avoiding to answer your tough question.. however, if I happened to be in that situation, then NO, I'm not gonna flip that damned key...

to make it simple for you, if you killed one of my children, I'd not seek revenge for one reason. if I did kill your child in return, you might kill another one of mine. but in case you were gonna kill another one of my children anyway, and I happened to have a gun at that time, I may just pull the trigger pointing my gun to no aim in order to scare/stop you. to be quite honest with you, it all depends on the situation & pressure at that time.

for extra clarification, you won't happen to be there just by chance. the man who reaches that position is definitely trained to follow orders because there will be no time to discuss such crucial decision. it's the military system. or at least it's how I see it or how it seems to me. also, take into consideration the news you'll be hearing all the time and how the national media will show you the "enemies" as animals.

- AC

[Woodruff]

No, I defended Tutsis from the Hutus in Rwanda and I'm proud to have done so, you sanctimonious ass. You want to know fucking disgusting and brutal...try on a machete being wielded against your comrades and those you are trying to defend. You don't have the first fucking clue what war is like, but you sure can sit there in your comfortable chair behind your big computer screen and pretend that it's what you think it is.

If you believe in Patriotism, UNLIKE ME, it's your thoughts and I respect them. I'm not asking you to adopt my thoughts which seem "odd" for people whose minds were fed with patriotism... however, you are in no position to say the above about me as if you know things about myself more than I do.

The hell I'm not. You and your bullshit sanctimony about "the evil Russians", as if I've never been on a real battlefield nor ever fought for what really was right as a member of the military. I could probably go into "genocide" a bit more, but I'll avoid getting that personal.

keep offending me, I don't care. just because I disagree with you, it doesn't mean that my thoughts are "bullshit" or I even have "sanctimony"... thanks for responding to my post.

I've never said your thoughts were bullshit. I said your misplaced sanctimony was. There's really no question at all that you are being sanctimonious. As well, you were the one being insulting, as far as I'm concerned.

[natty dread]

I guess you're never going to have kids, then.

I'm not being literal! We're talking theoretically here my man.

I guess you're never going to have theoretical kids, then.

[Baron Von PWN]

Nope! everyone knows its a big red button.

[PLAYER57832]

You are attempting to pervert the word "patriotism". If you wish only to take the most negative use of a word, you miss a lot.

if you think I have failed to see the bright side of Patriotism, feel free to mention some points/aspects of that side.

"Patriotism" is just another word for pride. We all need pride. Pride in self, pride in our town, pride in our country. Without it .. disaster. At the same time, go too far and, again.. disaster. In an individual, those without pride don't take care of themselves, often have a hard time caring about others, etc. Too much pride -- and you get a megalomaniac. The same scale exists for communities and nations.

You mention some of what happens when patriotism is distorted into its extreme. Patriotism, in a good sense, makes people care about parks, be willing to pay taxes, support one another when away from one's own country, etc, etc. It makes people want to run for office to improve the country (yes, cynacism at that comment is well earned, but it does make GOOD people run). It makes people fight crime and yes, sometimes be willing to put up their lives to defend the country.. but note, I said "defend", because even though the military can be and has been abused, it's purpose is defense. Like the word patriotism, people pervert use of the military for their own gain.

[Symmetry]

This is a line that's come up a few times over the course of this thread. I think it's avoiding the question. The question is a moral hypothetical, and denying that you'd ever be put in that situation is bunk. The hypothetical situation says that you're already in that situation, with all the responsibilities it entails.

Simply saying "Well- I'd never be there" is pretty poor.

again, sorry for taking your thread off topic, and sorry for avoiding to answer your tough question.. however, if I happened to be in that situation, then NO, I'm not gonna flip that damned key...

to make it simple for you, if you killed one of my children, I'd not seek revenge for one reason. if I did kill your child in return, you might kill another one of mine. but in case you were gonna kill another one of my children anyway, and I happened to have a gun at that time, I may just pull the trigger pointing my gun to no aim in order to scare/stop you. to be quite honest with you, it all depends on the situation & pressure at that time.

for extra clarification, you won't happen to be there just by chance. the man who reaches that position is definitely trained to follow orders because there will be no time to discuss such crucial decision. it's the military system. or at least it's how I see it or how it seems to me. also, take into consideration the news you'll be hearing all the time and how the national media will show you the "enemies" as animals.

- AC

Thanks- that's a better answer. Mutually Assured Destruction is definitely a big part of the question, as is revenge, and also how much you know about the situation.

As for the training part- I posted a link to an article in the OP, which kind of inspired me to ask the question. I think you might find it interesting.

[targetman377]

OOOOO lemme tell you something about PATRIOTISM...

actually ,... ummm

how about you just read my profile??? it's funny

AC

I would disagree with that i don't define patriotism as blind faith and i do not think that is correct.

[targetman377]

Interesting point. why defend ourselves at all? Who cares if we are overrun. As for you innocent civilians some countries Elect there leaders what if they attacked us then would they still be innocent?

OMG... this is the stupidest & most ignorant America guy I ever known

Americans elected and RE-ELECTED George W Push who destroyed Iraq (FOR NO GOOD REASON).

according to your shit, any Iraqi shall have the right to kill any American citizen for electing (not to mention the re-electing part) the asshole who destroyed their country.

oh wait, lemme guess, you are gonna tell me that Iraqi people deserve to die I won't be surprised if you said something like that... no kidding

here is an example of Patriotism

fucked up like 24 million people in Iraq in 2003 because a bunch of American corporations needed new contracts

- AC

No actually, But if you want to put words in my mouth then sure
oh and thanks for entering into a mature intelligent debate by dissing me

[targetman377]

The point is that I think nationalism is good, being selfish is good... it makes sense. But it should be balanced by some sort of morality.

Nationalism is not good. It's short-sighted, and only makes sense in a limited perspective. And morality is relative, so it's no good as a balancing factor, if it happens to be the wrong kind of morality.

Nationalism is good for me... I'm not concerned with what happens to future generations, I care about me right now. Is it short-sighted? Yes. Does it have a limited perspective? Yes. Do I care about perspective of the long-term? No.

I would truly disagree with that statement.

Nationalism is not just starting wars. But if you are short sighted in looking at nationalism or patriotism i could agree to that

[targetman377]

You are attempting to pervert the word "patriotism". If you wish only to take the most negative use of a word, you miss a lot.

if you think I have failed to see the bright side of Patriotism, feel free to mention some points/aspects of that side.

"Patriotism" is just another word for pride. We all need pride. Pride in self, pride in our town, pride in our country. Without it .. disaster. At the same time, go too far and, again.. disaster. In an individual, those without pride don't take care of themselves, often have a hard time caring about others, etc. Too much pride -- and you get a megalomaniac. The same scale exists for communities and nations.

You mention some of what happens when patriotism is distorted into its extreme. Patriotism, in a good sense, makes people care about parks, be willing to pay taxes, support one another when away from one's own country, etc, etc. It makes people want to run for office to improve the country (yes, cynacism at that comment is well earned, but it does make GOOD people run). It makes people fight crime and yes, sometimes be willing to put up their lives to defend the country.. but note, I said "defend", because even though the military can be and has been abused, it's purpose is defense. Like the word patriotism, people pervert use of the military for their own gain.

holy crap me and player agree STOP THE PRESSES lol

[targetman377]

Target, if you're not going to answer a question without changing the question itself, don't bother answering.

QUESTION: Would you launch a nuclear bomb on 10 millions people WITHOUT ANY BACKGROUND INFO ( There is no war, you know nothing about these people, you are not in danger and you only know you're launching a bomb on 10 million people ( Not military, not another nuclear complex, not another army's base ).

Stop the crap about your country wouldn't and would and you would if they did this...answer the question or don't bother.

Answer: your line.


The only thing I am gathering here is that, even if you have no damn info but the order to launch, you would make all sorts of excuses to remove yourself from any responsability just like you are to answer a single question here.

Take account the bold part and answer. that's it.

Yes or no, that's the post I want to see.

answer YES!

I thought i already explained that

[BigBallinStalin]

You are attempting to pervert the word "patriotism". If you wish only to take the most negative use of a word, you miss a lot.

if you think I have failed to see the bright side of Patriotism, feel free to mention some points/aspects of that side.

"Patriotism" is just another word for pride. We all need pride. Pride in self, pride in our town, pride in our country. Without it .. disaster. At the same time, go too far and, again.. disaster. In an individual, those without pride don't take care of themselves, often have a hard time caring about others, etc. Too much pride -- and you get a megalomaniac. The same scale exists for communities and nations.

You mention some of what happens when patriotism is distorted into its extreme. Patriotism, in a good sense, makes people care about parks, be willing to pay taxes, support one another when away from one's own country, etc, etc. It makes people want to run for office to improve the country (yes, cynacism at that comment is well earned, but it does make GOOD people run). It makes people fight crime and yes, sometimes be willing to put up their lives to defend the country.. but note, I said "defend", because even though the military can be and has been abused, it's purpose is defense. Like the word patriotism, people pervert use of the military for their own gain.

What's the difference between your definition of patriotism regarding the country and having nationalist sentiments?

I sincerely ask because I've been wondering exactly how others define patriotism and nationalism.