Another Texas Execution

[Bruceswar]

Having served on a grand jury for the last 3 months I can tell you he got a fair trial. Whenever a murder case comes up, there is far more to deal with than say your average drug case. You(the jury) are bombed with info.

This is probably the most interesting post in the thread. I've for often long been intrigued by the Grand Jury system and it's rare you ever run into anyone who's served on one.

Well now you have.

Is it a federal Grand Jury or a state Grand Jury?

We handle state cases only. In particular the county I live in. Dallas County.

How often does the Grand Jury you're on meet - weekly or more often?

There are 4 grand jury's that run in Dallas county. 2 of them meet on Tues and Thurs, the other 2 meet on mon, weds, and friday. I was on the tuesday and thurs. The other side was running also while we were but looking at different cases. Each grand jury session runs 3 months.

About what percent of cases you're presented do you indict?

I would say about 90 to 95% of the cases went to trial. The few that did not were cases in which the other party did not want to press charges or there was very little evidence against the accused.

How much time is spent per case, what is the division of votes, etc.? Tell us anecdotes.

Each day we would go in and look at anywhere from 40 to 80 cases. Some cases such as a drug charge are given less time than say a rape or murder case. A rape case can take 30 minutes just for one case alone, while a drug charge generally takes 30 seconds to a minute at most. In Dallas county all drugs are tested to be sure of the charge. If there is no test we cannot move the case forward.


Anything else?

[Bruceswar]

Forgot to add, there are 12 members of a grand jury. To get the case going forward you need 9 yes votes to move it forward. Anything less and the case is tossed out.

[Johnny Rockets]

Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated, neither can sociopaths.
If anyone can find some respectable studies proving otherwise, I'd really like to view them.

The problem with Iliad, Woody, Bison, and Inky, is that they have this slippery slope fear of setting precedent.

What? There is no slipperly slope at all. It's a simple matter of logic...if you don't kill someone, they can at least be set free when it's found that they were innocent. If you kill someone, you cannot bring them back to life. That's all there is to it, as far as I'm concerned. It's not a slippery slope in any way...it's quite frankly black and white.

Referring more so to the ideal that if you embrace capitol punishment, you devalue life as a whole. I failed to be specific here. The biggest fault in the pro capitol punishment argument is as you pointed out, the execution of innocents.

But the current system is all we have.

No, it really isn't...or at the least, it does not need to be.

Yeah. And I don't see any major changes happening anytime soon, so while we wait the impossible lets just wrok with what he have.

Spending millions housing DR's for 15+ years is irresponsible to the law abiding citizens.

Irresponsible to the law abiding citizens who are wrongly executed?

No. The millions of law abiding and tax paying citizens who pay for sheltering a convicted criminal for potentially decades.

Trying to rehabilitate a serial rapist so we can put ourselves to bed at night with a lily white conscious is selfish.

Don't lump me in with the rehabilitating everyone group...I recognize that not every condition can be fixed with rehabilitation.

True enough.

-You can't save every idiot who makes poor choices and wasn't raised right.

I'd like to save the non-idiots who are innocent.

Please table your plan for revamping the entire Justice system of the United States in regards to preventing convictions of the wrongfully accused.
No?

-The life of a pedophile, or sociopath with criminal intentions is not worth the trauma or life of one victim.

"The life of one victim"...what about the victim of the wrongful execution? What about that one life?

The safety and security of the many outweigh that one life. Ugly, but true. Will you not incarcerate anyone due to fear of wrongful conviction? Does not life in prison not also destroy the mans life you hold so dear? Hell I'll even concede this point and we can keep capitol punishment only for the cases where there is irrefutable guilt. Then at least some good is done.

Jrock

[Woodruff]

But the current system is all we have.

No, it really isn't...or at the least, it does not need to be.

Yeah. And I don't see any major changes happening anytime soon, so while we wait the impossible lets just wrok with what he have.

So we just give up? Getting rid of the death penalty would be a really great place to start. Ending the War on Drugs would be another fine place to start. Recreating how we use and view our prison system would also be a great place to start. Those first two are EASY. That third one...quite a bit more difficult.

Spending millions housing DR's for 15+ years is irresponsible to the law abiding citizens.

Irresponsible to the law abiding citizens who are wrongly executed?

No. The millions of law abiding and tax paying citizens who pay for sheltering a convicted criminal for potentially decades.

You seem to have missed my point. Killing an innocent is, in my opinion, the height of irresponsibility.

-You can't save every idiot who makes poor choices and wasn't raised right.

I'd like to save the non-idiots who are innocent.

Please table your plan for revamping the entire Justice system of the United States in regards to preventing convictions of the wrongfully accused. No?

I don't need to...all I have to do is end the death penalty. Look, I recognize that innocents are unfortunately going to be convicted occasionally because no system is perfect. My ONLY point is that we shouldn't be freaking killing them...that puts us past the point of no return.

-The life of a pedophile, or sociopath with criminal intentions is not worth the trauma or life of one victim.

"The life of one victim"...what about the victim of the wrongful execution? What about that one life?

The safety and security of the many outweigh that one life. Ugly, but true.

That is not at all true. If that person is in prison for life, the safety and security of the many is just as surely provided.

Will you not incarcerate anyone due to fear of wrongful conviction?

Where did that come from? That question is thoroughly irrelevant to any point I'm making.

Does not life in prison not also destroy the mans life you hold so dear?

There is at least the possibility that the conviction can be overturned and the individual could get some semblance of a life returned. Not so with an execution.

Hell I'll even concede this point and we can keep capitol punishment only for the cases where there is irrefutable guilt. Then at least some good is done.

I have no problem with that, as my only SERIOUS problem with the death penalty is the wrongly convicted.

[Johnny Rockets]

But the current system is all we have.

No, it really isn't...or at the least, it does not need to be.

Yeah. And I don't see any major changes happening anytime soon, so while we wait the impossible lets just wrok with what he have.

So we just give up? Getting rid of the death penalty would be a really great place to start. Ending the War on Drugs would be another fine place to start. Recreating how we use and view our prison system would also be a great place to start. Those first two are EASY. That third one...quite a bit more difficult.

Spending millions housing DR's for 15+ years is irresponsible to the law abiding citizens.

Irresponsible to the law abiding citizens who are wrongly executed?

No. The millions of law abiding and tax paying citizens who pay for sheltering a convicted criminal for potentially decades.

You seem to have missed my point. Killing an innocent is, in my opinion, the height of irresponsibility.

-You can't save every idiot who makes poor choices and wasn't raised right.

I'd like to save the non-idiots who are innocent.

Please table your plan for revamping the entire Justice system of the United States in regards to preventing convictions of the wrongfully accused. No?

I don't need to...all I have to do is end the death penalty. Look, I recognize that innocents are unfortunately going to be convicted occasionally because no system is perfect. My ONLY point is that we shouldn't be freaking killing them...that puts us past the point of no return.

-The life of a pedophile, or sociopath with criminal intentions is not worth the trauma or life of one victim.

"The life of one victim"...what about the victim of the wrongful execution? What about that one life?

The safety and security of the many outweigh that one life. Ugly, but true.

That is not at all true. If that person is in prison for life, the safety and security of the many is just as surely provided.

Will you not incarcerate anyone due to fear of wrongful conviction?

Where did that come from? That question is thoroughly irrelevant to any point I'm making.

Does not life in prison not also destroy the mans life you hold so dear?

There is at least the possibility that the conviction can be overturned and the individual could get some semblance of a life returned. Not so with an execution.

Hell I'll even concede this point and we can keep capitol punishment only for the cases where there is irrefutable guilt. Then at least some good is done.

I have no problem with that, as my only SERIOUS problem with the death penalty is the wrongly convicted.

Alright, but do you see a double standard here? As a society we are reluctant to use the death penalty to prevent irrevocable mistakes. We have no such issues with throwing a man into Angola for 15 years in general population. I'm not saying death is preferable, but we will have smashed his life, ruined his family, placed him in harms way on a daily basis, and broken his spirit while erasing his potential. Even if his crime did not warrant capitol punishment, doing this to an innocent person is effectively destroying his life.
Just by ratio of incarceration vs death penalty sentences, this happens much more frequently then placing innocent people on death row, and there still is no public outcry to revamp a failing system.

My point is that "we" put a lot more focus on avoiding accidentally executing a man, but have a lot less qualms about destroying his life in every other way.

Why? Less guilt for us. Period.

The very same hypocrisy arises when we go to war. Civilian casualties, friendly fire, collateral damage, is all acceptable side effects of a military confrontation. War is the very last bastion of diplomacy, and the ultimate enforcing tool of international law. ( Libya, Iraq, The Balkans, Afghanistan...)

So risking killing innocents is OK, as long as they are not American? Nope....no....that can't be, because you sent your troops into many a meat grinder yourselves, and they had little choice but to obey.

So I guess my question here is why do some people not transfer that ideal from their anti capitol punishment stance from the Justice system branch or government to other areas of government policies that affect human life? Or better yet, why the double standard?

I agree with the ending of the war on drugs, and the decriminalizing of softer drugs as well.
Mainly because of personal beliefs, but the money for incarcerating citizens for pot related offenses and the manpower wasted that could be directed to methamphetamine control is just being squandered.

JRock

[Woodruff]

Alright, but do you see a double standard here? As a society we are reluctant to use the death penalty to prevent irrevocable mistakes. We have no such issues with throwing a man into Angola for 15 years in general population. I'm not saying death is preferable, but we will have smashed his life, ruined his family, placed him in harms way on a daily basis, and broken his spirit while erasing his potential. Even if his crime did not warrant capitol punishment, doing this to an innocent person is effectively destroying his life.
Just by ratio of incarceration vs death penalty sentences, this happens much more frequently then placing innocent people on death row, and there still is no public outcry to revamp a failing system.

I agree completely. For me personally, I want to focus on the most egregious situations (which in my opinion is the death penalty) because they're the easiest to "make apparent". That doesn't mean I don't care about the others, but it means I believe I will be less effective in discussing them because if someone doesn't care about the death penalty innocents, they're certainly not going to care about the general population innocents.

My point is that "we" put a lot more focus on avoiding accidentally executing a man, but have a lot less qualms about destroying his life in every other way.
Why? Less guilt for us. Period.

That's definitely a part of it, no question. I know you're speaking from a societal perspective (which I agree with), but for me personally, it has nothing to do with feelings of guilt...since I'm not involved in the decisions. It has to do with how correctable the situation is. Since the death row situation is less correctable, it's my highest priority.

The very same hypocrisy arises when we go to war. Civilian casualties, friendly fire, collateral damage, is all acceptable side effects of a military confrontation. War is the very last bastion of diplomacy, and the ultimate enforcing tool of international law. ( Libya, Iraq, The Balkans, Afghanistan...)

Absolutely, I agree with you completely here also. And I'm far from a tree-hugging peace-nik.

So I guess my question here is why do some people not transfer that ideal from their anti capitol punishment stance from the Justice system branch or government to other areas of government policies that affect human life? Or better yet, why the double standard?

I can't really answer that...personal bias and blinders, most likely.

I agree with the ending of the war on drugs, and the decriminalizing of softer drugs as well.
Mainly because of personal beliefs, but the money for incarcerating citizens for pot related offenses and the manpower wasted that could be directed to methamphetamine control is just being squandered.

Amen to that last part. I'm pretty anti-drug myself...I just recognize that our method of handling it is thoroughly ineffective.

[Phatscotty]

well, which is it now. I thought the main argument, in general, was that the illegal immigrants children who were brought here at a very young age should get to be Americans citizens because they broke the law through no fault of their own, but if an illegal alien rapes and kills an American, they don't want amnesty anymore and they are Mexican again with Mexican rights?

Also, what is it that a Mexican gov't official is supposed to be able to do? Not being a smart ass, just asking more about that process and how it is supposed to work.

Overall, yes I think he should have been able to talk to his government, that's should be given, but why would that access prevent justice from being served in the name of the dead raped victim? I know you aren't an expert but this is your thread so could you clarify a bit further please?

Beuller? Beuller?

[Bruceswar]

well, which is it now. I thought the main argument, in general, was that the illegal immigrants children who were brought here at a very young age should get to be Americans citizens because they broke the law through no fault of their own, but if an illegal alien rapes and kills an American, they don't want amnesty anymore and they are Mexican again with Mexican rights?

Also, what is it that a Mexican gov't official is supposed to be able to do? Not being a smart ass, just asking more about that process and how it is supposed to work.

Overall, yes I think he should have been able to talk to his government, that's should be given, but why would that access prevent justice from being served in the name of the dead raped victim? I know you aren't an expert but this is your thread so could you clarify a bit further please?

Beuller? Beuller?

ofc they skip over the good post and just try to bash what they want. Me and you got skipped many times over!

[Symmetry]

well, which is it now. I thought the main argument, in general, was that the illegal immigrants children who were brought here at a very young age should get to be Americans citizens because they broke the law through no fault of their own, but if an illegal alien rapes and kills an American, they don't want amnesty anymore and they are Mexican again with Mexican rights?

Also, what is it that a Mexican gov't official is supposed to be able to do? Not being a smart ass, just asking more about that process and how it is supposed to work.

Overall, yes I think he should have been able to talk to his government, that's should be given, but why would that access prevent justice from being served in the name of the dead raped victim? I know you aren't an expert but this is your thread so could you clarify a bit further please?

Beuller? Beuller?

Hey Scotty- Apologies for being slow. I haven't logged on for a few days as I was away over the weekend. At my last login, this thread had no replies, so I was kind of surprised to see where it went.

As far as I understand- according to international obligations, as far as I can tell, if a citizen of another country is arrested, they should be provided consular access.

I'm not sure I understand all of your post about that- you seem to be saying that he should have been granted that access, and that it wouldn't have prevented justice being served. In which case, I agree.

If he's truly a foreign citizen, and not a native, then he should have the rights granted to foreign citizens.

I don't think they would have been able to do much for the guy, but that's a personal opinion. In practice, early legal advice might have been provided. I don't know the case specifics, but it seems like the Texas police weren't entirely honest with him about what rights he had. If I can make an analogy, it might be like not having your Miranda rights given to you as a native citizen.

It doesn't make him innocent or guilty, but it makes it seem like due process wasn't followed.

[Symmetry]

On a bit of a longer note, and trying to reply to a lot of posters:

1) Yes, the Supreme court rejected the appeal, but unsurprisingly on a 5-4 basis, so it doesn't really appeal to me as a strong line of argument.

2) I didn't elaborate my own opinions on this, but I'm against the death penalty in all cases. Part of that is the fact that mistakes get made, but I would be against it even if it were infallible. I want to be upfront about that.

3) Texas does seem to have a bit of a love affair with executing people. I've posted before about the Cameron Todd Willingham case, and I suspect you can all find an article on him via wiki, but it still bothers me that Texas refuses to deal with it.

4) The answer is not to speed up executions. Too many people are freed from death row after new evidence has emerged after that period.

Basically- I want to say that if you are going to execute someone, best make sure it's done without cutting corners.

[tdans]

I don't know when the crime took place, but it took 17 years from his conviction until his death. Ridiculous.

+1 .. Being from Texas I am glad he was put to death. One less idiot on the street.

+10

[Symmetry]

I don't know when the crime took place, but it took 17 years from his conviction until his death. Ridiculous.

+1 .. Being from Texas I am glad he was put to death. One less idiot on the street.

+10

Thanks for the contribution TDans, and without calling into question the limits of the Texan education system, I will just point out that there are numbers higher than ten if you don't want to say "+1". The British education system goes all the way up to whatever number comes after 15.

[tdans]

I don't know when the crime took place, but it took 17 years from his conviction until his death. Ridiculous.

+1 .. Being from Texas I am glad he was put to death. One less idiot on the street.

+10

Thanks for the contribution TDans, and without calling into question the limits of the Texan education system, I will just point out that there are numbers higher than ten if you don't want to say "+1". The British education system goes all the way up to whatever number comes after 15.

the Texas education system is fair, but I wasn't taught in that system 10 seemed like a fair number, neither too high or too low I do hope your endeavors to pass the number 15 are successful, after all, life can get hectic with 15 or below...

[thegreekdog]

Another sad event for Texas.

And I might add, hypocrisy in action yet again.

I fail to see how this is a sad event for Texas?

Few Facts here:

1. Said person was a Mexican National, meaning 1 of 2 things. 1) He was illegal and thus already breaking the law. 2) He was a resident with a green card. Legal, but killing someone is still bad.

http://www.ktnv.com/news/national/125186784.html

To Quote "HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- A 38-year-old Mexican man has been executed in Texas for the rape-slaying of a San Antonio teenager after White House-backed appeals to spare him were rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court."

Take note of the bolded part. Texas courts did not deny anything. The Supreme Court did.

Maybe if I make it big enough people will see it now!

Sorry, I didn't come back to this thread until now.

Sad event for Texas because I don't believe in the death penalty and that particular state sure kills an awful lot of prisoners.

[tdans]

I say if you kill someone, you deserve to die.. Capital punishment WORKS! heck, nowadays you kill someone and sometimes guys walk after 8 years... you want to lower murder rates? Have the death penalty for anyone who murders anyone else....

[The Bison King]

I say if you kill someone, you deserve to die.. Capital punishment WORKS! heck, nowadays you kill someone and sometimes guys walk after 8 years... you want to lower murder rates? Have the death penalty for anyone who murders anyone else....

yeah, because it's exactly that simple.

[tdans]

I say if you kill someone, you deserve to die.. Capital punishment WORKS! heck, nowadays you kill someone and sometimes guys walk after 8 years... you want to lower murder rates? Have the death penalty for anyone who murders anyone else....

yeah, because it's exactly that simple.

true you will run into snags, but Hey! you really want the freakin murder rates to go down? Enact harsher punishments.. It works for Thousands of years, Why change something that works? Capital Punishment will make a big difference..... I was raised on a quote " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" .. so you Murder someone in cold blood, heck, expect to die.. you wonder why the murder rate has gone up? its because the people arent afraid of the justice system anymore.. that and no conscience..

[Mr_Adams]

Gang, just goosenecked at Governor Perry's FLICKR page. IMO, he overdoes it on security.

What soft limp-wristed liberals don't get is that every man deserves the right to protect himself and they'll be sorry when a regiment of Confederate infantry marches on them.

Don't feed the troll, Illiad. That isn't (at least not a large portion isn't) a security detail. They aren't even uniformly dressed.

[tdans]

Gang, just goosenecked at Governor Perry's FLICKR page. IMO, he overdoes it on security.

What soft limp-wristed liberals don't get is that every man deserves the right to protect himself and they'll be sorry when a regiment of Confederate infantry marches on them.

Don't feed the troll, Illiad. That isn't (at least not a large portion isn't) a security detail. They aren't even uniformly dressed.

saxi was talking about the cannons I believe Adams

[Mr_Adams]

Oh, wow, totally went over my head

[Woodruff]

I say if you kill someone, you deserve to die.. Capital punishment WORKS! heck, nowadays you kill someone and sometimes guys walk after 8 years... you want to lower murder rates? Have the death penalty for anyone who murders anyone else....

yeah, because it's exactly that simple.

true you will run into snags, but Hey! you really want the freakin murder rates to go down? Enact harsher punishments.. It works for Thousands of years, Why change something that works? Capital Punishment will make a big difference..... I was raised on a quote " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" .. so you Murder someone in cold blood, heck, expect to die.. you wonder why the murder rate has gone up? its because the people arent afraid of the justice system anymore.. that and no conscience..

That is easily the most fucked-up, twisted perspective of the Golden Rule that I have ever seen in my life.

[Iliad]

I say if you kill someone, you deserve to die.. Capital punishment WORKS! heck, nowadays you kill someone and sometimes guys walk after 8 years... you want to lower murder rates? Have the death penalty for anyone who murders anyone else....

yeah, because it's exactly that simple.

true you will run into snags, but Hey! you really want the freakin murder rates to go down? Enact harsher punishments.. It works for Thousands of years, Why change something that works? Capital Punishment will make a big difference..... I was raised on a quote " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" .. so you Murder someone in cold blood, heck, expect to die.. you wonder why the murder rate has gone up? its because the people arent afraid of the justice system anymore.. that and no conscience..

Because the Medieval and Ancient worlds were paragons of lawful abiding citizens.Oh wait,they weren't and that's exactly why they required very disproportionate punishments to deter crimes. In the modern world, we have the police system which are a much more effective way to stop and deter crimes. Capital punishment remains an anachronistic relic in our justice system and one that is completely unneeded.

Capital punishment does not work as a deterrent and frankly archaic teachings given by Bronze Age tribesmen have no place in our justice system.

trlf admitted that his stance is ethically contradictory and Johhny's argument is massive cop out as he dismisses the concept of morality and the state trying to act as just as possible.

Also Adams, my comment was more than a little tongue in cheek.

[Mr_Adams]

Also Adams, my comment was more than a little tongue in cheek.

99% of these fora are

[BigBallinStalin]

Capital punishment would act as an effective deterrent if it was certain to be carried out swiftly. Since it isn't, it fails to be effective; therefore, capital punishment should be discontinued.


More resources should be dedicated to other punitive and rehabilitative methods. Certain prohibitions should also be considered, but that's another topic--albeit, related.

[Night Strike]

In the modern world, we have the police system which are a much more effective way to stop and deter crimes.

Since when? I know most police officers do a great job, but very few are actually able to stop a crime before it's committed. They investigate rapes and murders; they don't just outright stop them from happening.