Tea Party Democrats

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thegreekdog
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by thegreekdog »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: (2) If we acknowledge taking the debt-ceiling hostage was bad, why are we only blaming the Tea Party and not, you know, also the guys who were in office before the Tea Party guys?
Because the Tea Partiers are the ones who actually pushed things to the brink. The other guys bought and loaded the gun and ammo, right enough, but it was the Tea Partiers who pulled the trigger.
So they should all be blamed, right? I'm not suggesting that Tea Partiers shouldn't be blamed (they should); I'm suggesting that at least equally (I think more, but I'm biased in some respects) to blame is the pre-Tea Party government.

So there's that.

But really I'm suggesting a "who gives a shit" kind of argument. In other words, nothing bad happened as a result of the "almost default" of the federal government. Nothing. So is there really someone to blame? Probably not.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Neoteny »

I mean, if the Dems had put aside a little time from caving to Pubs and actually put together a budget when they, you know, had full control of Congress, then most of this would never have happened. Big O would probably be a shoo-in for term 2 as well.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Neoteny wrote:I mean, if the Dems had put aside a little time from caving to Pubs and actually put together a budget when they, you know, had full control of Congress, then most of this would never have happened. Big O would probably be a shoo-in for term 2 as well.
This is true.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by thegreekdog »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I mean, if the Dems had put aside a little time from caving to Pubs and actually put together a budget when they, you know, had full control of Congress, then most of this would never have happened. Big O would probably be a shoo-in for term 2 as well.
This is true.
Goddamit! This is what I was saying! I'll even acknowledge the Obama would have been a shoo-in for a second term!

I think he's a shoo-in anyway because the Republican nominee is going to suck ass.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by PLAYER57832 »

EDIT... you posted before me, greekdog. I lay out the distinction below. You combined ALL of this together. That is the problem.
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: (2) If we acknowledge taking the debt-ceiling hostage was bad, why are we only blaming the Tea Party and not, you know, also the guys who were in office before the Tea Party guys?
Because the Tea Partiers are the ones who actually pushed things to the brink. The other guys bought and loaded the gun and ammo, right enough, but it was the Tea Partiers who pulled the trigger.
So they should all be blamed, right? I'm not suggesting that Tea Partiers shouldn't be blamed (they should); I'm suggesting that at least equally (I think more, but I'm biased in some respects) to blame is the pre-Tea Party government.
The Tea Party is the reason cited for the S & P downgrade. The Tea Party is responsible for bringing us to the point where people started wondering if the US would always pay its debt.

The entire congress, but more importantly, the AMERICAN PEOPLE who elected these idiots by listening to campaign ads instead of folks that actually investigate the truth of what is happening (factcheck.com is one out there now, but there were ways earlier). THEY are the real ones to blame.

The finger needs to be pointed especially at everyone who has been happy to make concessions "in the name of profit and jobs" without truly considering the long term impacts to both us and our children. As long as people are more concerned about their personnal tax bill, their toys and goodies and not future generations, as long as people remain unwilling to sacrifice one iota (or maybe JUST an iota) for any but their own personnal gain and the gain of people they directly know. As long as they see their "contributing to society" as making small (or large) contributions to causes they can directly choose and "feel good about" because they are "feeding kids in Africa" as opposed to doing something boring like making sure roads are safe. this garbage will continue. (sure kids in Africa need feeding, but without safe roads, our entire system of trade is threatened)


So there's that.
thegreekdog wrote:But really I'm suggesting a "who gives a shit" kind of argument. In other words, nothing bad happened as a result of the "almost default" of the federal government. Nothing. So is there really someone to blame? Probably not.
First, I think you are minimizing the impact. No problem? We just saw the stock market take some SERIOUS dives, most of us will see credit card interest rates increase, mortgages are apparently harder to get. Maybe YOU don't feel the impact because you are insulated in your position. Most people don't have that luxury.

However, the real and bottom line impact goes much, much further.. and yes, I have harped on this before. ALL of this mess about stock values, deficits, trade imbalances, etc,e tc.. ALL of it has to do with a climate that refuses to hold companies completely responsible for damage they cause either to society, other business, people or even property as long as they are making people money. It is not just an esoteric issue, either. Corporations are specifically set up to insulate the heads/investors (but not workers!) from the harm of their decisions. The ONLY way they are usually held responsible is in finances.

Most fundamentally, this idea that its OK to just let companies do as they will until harm is already cuased and then leave it up to those harmed to both prove AND take action against the company (at their own expense in most cases!) is among the most irresponsible acts a society can perform. Its like saying "OK Mr Cambell, go ahead and shoot this gun into the crowd. We have proof that rifles and pistols are harmful, but no one has really decided shotguns hurt yet.. and if they do, we can be fairly certain the harm won't be enough to worry about" [wink, wink].
And I am not joking OR exaggerating. Just look at the damage caused by almost any single large corporation!
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thegreekdog
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

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I'm going to attempt to parse this out Player.

(1) The United States Congress, at some point in the past, passes a law implementing a debt ceiling. The debt ceiling is a cap set by Congress on the amount of debt the federal government can legally borrow and applies to debt owned to the public and debt owned to federal government trust funds (social security and Medicare).

(2) The first debt ceiling was set in 1917 at $11.5 billion.

(3) Prior to the recent debt agreement, the debt ceiling was at $14.292 trillion.

(4) Since March 1962, the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times. It has been raised 10 times since 2001.

(5) If Congress did not reaise the debt ceiling, Treasury would not have the authority to borrow more money. Therefore, if the debt ceiling was not increased, Congress would have two choices (according to CNN) - cut spending or raise taxes by several hundred billion dollars.

All of these above are from CNN from an article from May 2011.

So, what happened immediately before and immediately after the CNN article.

(1) Prior to May 2011, the Democrats had control of both houses of Congress and the presidency until November 2010. No budget was passed.

(2) Between the moment new Congress came into office (January 3, 2011) and the debt ceiling increase (August 2, 2011), the House of Representatives was controlled by the Republicans and the Senate was controlled by the Democrats. Of 435 members of the House, 60 are part of the Tea Party Caucus. Of the 50 senators, 4 were members of the Tea Party Caucus. That's 14% and 8% respectively. In other words, non-Tea Party members held 86% of the House and 92% of the Senate and 100% of the presidency between January 3, 2011 and August 2, 2011. Admittedly, there was a lot of pressure put on the Republicans (and I would argue Democrats) about the "out of control spending" of Congress that was never heard at such volume in the past. So perhaps we don't care about the percentages of Tea Partiers in Congress. However, it's notable that the Tea Party members of Congress had no real power to do anything about the budget except complain verbally. Instead, perhaps the vitriol should be directed at Congress in general for caving to the demands made by their uninformed, non-forward-looking constituents.

(3) On or before August 2, 2011 the debt ceiling was raised (along with spending cuts... see # 5 above... the supposedly horrible thing that was going to happen if we didn't raise the debt ceiling happened as part of raising the debt ceiling).

(4) After August 2, 2011, Standard & Poor's, among others, lowered the United States government's credit rating. Why? Here's what S&P says about credit ratings: "A credit rating is Standard & Poor's opinion on the general creditworthiness of an obligor, or the creditworthiness of an obligor with respect to a particular debt security or other financial obligation." Let's look at why, specifically, S&P downgraded the US from an August 5, 2011 research update:
The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics. More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 8, 2011. Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistc about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation that stabilizes the government's debt dynatmics any time soon.
And some more (from the same document):
We lowered our long-term raiting on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process. We also believe that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this week falls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize the general government debt burden by the middle of the decade. Our lowering of the rating was prompted by our view to the rising public debt burden and our perception of greater policymaking uncertainty, consistent with our criteria. Nevertheless, we view the U.S. federal government's other economic, external and monetary credit attributes, which forms the basis for the sovereign rating, as broadly unchanged. We have taken the ratings off CreditWatch because the Aug. 2 passage of the Budget Control Act Amendment of 2011 has removed any perceived immediate threat of payment default posed by delays to raising the government's debt ceiling. In addition, we believe that the act provides sufficient clarity to allow us to evaluate the likely course of the U.S. fiscal policy for the next few years.
And more:
The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy. Despite this year's wide-ranging debate, in our view, the differences between political parties have proven to be extraordinarily difficult to bridge, and, as we see it, the resulting agreement fell well short of the comprehensive fiscal consolidation program that some proponents have envisaged until quite recently. Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures. It appears that for now, new revenues have been dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability.
There is more, but I'm not going to type it all out here.

So tell me why S&P downgraded the United States government. Not why you think they did, but why they did based on the above. Here's what I get (see specifically the bolded part):

- S&P places no blame on one particular party over another. S&P blames both seemingly equally.
- S&P does not talk about either raising revenues or cutting spending, it talks about both.
- S&P never mentions the Tea Party or public opinion.
- S&P does mention the increasing public debt burden (i.e. compared to cutting spending or increasing revenues).

As for the stock market "re-crash" obviously the government has nothing to do with that.

EDIT - By the way - I read a lot of articles regarding the downgrade by S&P. Here is a choice item (which maybe belong in Player's media bias thread):

From thenewcivilrightsmovement.com:
Why? Standard and Poor's cited two main reasons: first, and foremost, the inability of Congress to work together, specifically citing the fact that "the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measures that would raise revenues" and two, the lack of any increase in revenue in the recent credit ceiling and deficit reduction bill. To put it even more simply, politicians - especially Republicans - aren't doing their jobs.
Neither is the writer of this article, who completely disregarded any of S&P's statements about Democrats or cutting spending.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Phatscotty »

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I mean, if the Dems had put aside a little time from caving to Pubs and actually put together a budget when they, you know, had full control of Congress, then most of this would never have happened. Big O would probably be a shoo-in for term 2 as well.
This is true.
Goddamit! This is what I was saying! I'll even acknowledge the Obama would have been a shoo-in for a second term!

I think he's a shoo-in anyway because the Republican nominee is going to suck ass.
Interestingly, it's what I've been saying too. But it doesn't matter what is said, all that matters is who is saying it.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Phatscotty »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
The Tea Party is the reason cited for the S & P downgrade. The Tea Party is responsible for bringing us to the point where people started wondering if the US would always pay its debt.
Who cited that?

The Tea Party wants to pay down the debt, (cut, cap, and BALANCE....)but it's beyond clear that you are the last person on earth to figure out what the Tea Party is and that Ron Paul is the father of the movement.

You also completely, conveniently ignore that twice as many democrats voted against the bill as did Tea Party members. Why don't the twice as many democrats get any the blame????
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

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Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
The Tea Party is the reason cited for the S & P downgrade. The Tea Party is responsible for bringing us to the point where people started wondering if the US would always pay its debt.
Who cited that?
S & P Spokespeople.. as I have said before. You can claim they made the wrong decision, etc, etc, but that is what THEY say.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

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Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I mean, if the Dems had put aside a little time from caving to Pubs and actually put together a budget when they, you know, had full control of Congress, then most of this would never have happened. Big O would probably be a shoo-in for term 2 as well.
This is true.
Goddamit! This is what I was saying! I'll even acknowledge the Obama would have been a shoo-in for a second term!

I think he's a shoo-in anyway because the Republican nominee is going to suck ass.
Interestingly, it's what I've been saying too. But it doesn't matter what is said, all that matters is who is saying it.
That's the sad part...
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by PLAYER57832 »

thegreekdog wrote:I'm going to attempt to parse this out Player.
I don't dispute any of what you have said. I do say that the Tea Party is primarily responsible for the S & P downgrade.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Neoteny »

Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I mean, if the Dems had put aside a little time from caving to Pubs and actually put together a budget when they, you know, had full control of Congress, then most of this would never have happened. Big O would probably be a shoo-in for term 2 as well.
This is true.
Goddamit! This is what I was saying! I'll even acknowledge the Obama would have been a shoo-in for a second term!

I think he's a shoo-in anyway because the Republican nominee is going to suck ass.
Interestingly, it's what I've been saying too. But it doesn't matter what is said, all that matters is who is saying it.
I think y'all just aren't as lucid as I am.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by thegreekdog »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I'm going to attempt to parse this out Player.
I don't dispute any of what you have said. I do say that the Tea Party is primarily responsible for the S & P downgrade.
So you didn't read the S&P explanation then? That's great.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by PLAYER57832 »

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I'm going to attempt to parse this out Player.
I don't dispute any of what you have said. I do say that the Tea Party is primarily responsible for the S & P downgrade.
So you didn't read the S&P explanation then? That's great.
I did. I heard what they said immediately afterward. Now they are backing off a tad. I believe the original statements, which were pretty clear.


And... I do NOT blame the Tea Party for this whole mess, as I noted earlier.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by PLAYER57832 »

greekdog.. look, its not that I answer x when the only real answer is y, its that I see a lot more than most people here wish to consider. the fact that so many people only see "y" does NOT mean that is the only answer.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by thegreekdog »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I'm going to attempt to parse this out Player.
I don't dispute any of what you have said. I do say that the Tea Party is primarily responsible for the S & P downgrade.
So you didn't read the S&P explanation then? That's great.
I did. I heard what they said immediately afterward. Now they are backing off a tad. I believe the original statements, which were pretty clear.


And... I do NOT blame the Tea Party for this whole mess, as I noted earlier.
What?
PLAYER57832 wrote:I do say that the Tea Party is primarily responsible for the S & P downgrade.
Besides that... I literally typed out what was written in the S&P explanation. Word for word. Do you not believe the S&P explanation? I mean if I said I liked chocolate and that's why I ate the chocolate bar, would you not believe me?
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Phatscotty »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
The Tea Party is the reason cited for the S & P downgrade. The Tea Party is responsible for bringing us to the point where people started wondering if the US would always pay its debt.
Who cited that?
S & P Spokespeople.. as I have said before. You can claim they made the wrong decision, etc, etc, but that is what THEY say.
no no no they did fucking not! They blame partisan bickering, of which you need to stretch that minor political statement to get to "it's the tea parties fault".

SnP - "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics."

The Tea Party are the only people that are trying to do anything about the debt.

THE MAIN REASON IS THE 17 TRILLION $ DEBT and if you can't admit that then I don't know how I can take you seriously in the future.
you still ignore how you ignored that twice as many democrats cast the same vote as the Tea Party. Makes me think you are just making hollow attacks with no shame or honor whatsoever.

If you can't understand that the downgrade came at the same time the debt passed our entire GDP, then we don't have anything else to talk about because I have no interest in wasting time on trolls.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by thegreekdog »

Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
The Tea Party is the reason cited for the S & P downgrade. The Tea Party is responsible for bringing us to the point where people started wondering if the US would always pay its debt.
Who cited that?
S & P Spokespeople.. as I have said before. You can claim they made the wrong decision, etc, etc, but that is what THEY say.
no no no they did fucking not! They blame partisan bickering, of which you need to stretch that minor political statement to get to "it's the tea parties fault".

SnP - "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics."

The Tea Party are the only people that are trying to do anything about the debt.

THE MAIN REASON IS THE 17 TRILLION $ DEBT and if you can't admit that then I don't know how I can take you seriously in the future.
you still ignore how you ignored that twice as many democrats cast the same vote as the Tea Party. Makes me think you are just making hollow attacks with no shame or honor whatsoever.

If you can't understand that the downgrade came at the same time the debt passed our entire GDP, then we don't have anything else to talk about because I have no interest in wasting time on trolls.
See, now you're wrong too. The S&P didn't just say cut spending (which is what the Tea Party wants).

I hereby dub you and Player ultra-partisans for ignoring everything I typed and clinging to some sort of nebulous understanding of facts that only you guys know.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Phatscotty »

I didnt say that! The tea party wanted cuts and balance and caps, and there I was focusing on balance.

Here, Felonious Munk can say it nicer than I can
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRmZ9zH-mYM
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by thegreekdog »

Phatscotty wrote:I didnt say that! The tea party wanted cuts and balance and caps, and there I was focusing on balance.

Here, Felonious Munk can say it nicer than I can
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRmZ9zH-mYM
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Apart from my enjoying that video, S&P doesn't just want "cuts and balance and caps" they want an increase in revenue and a decrease in spending.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Phatscotty »

yes yes I know. I just presumed all yall knew that loopholes would be closed and deductions would no longer be tax deductable amongst many other things. Isn't that revenue increases?
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Woodruff »

thegreekdog wrote:I think he's a shoo-in anyway because the Republican nominee is going to suck ass.
I really honestly hate to hear that, because I do agree. I find myself liking Mitt Romney, and I don't really like Mitt Romney. And it annoys the shit out of me because I sure don't like Obama, but the Democrats got NOBODY else. Just don't make it Bachmann...that's REALLY all I ask.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Woodruff wrote: Just don't make it Bachmann...that's REALLY all I ask.
Just heard an interview about her. Cannot agree more! We thought Pallin was bad. Bachmann will literally mean the end of america!
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Phatscotty »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote: Just don't make it Bachmann...that's REALLY all I ask.
Just heard an interview about her. Cannot agree more! We thought Pallin was bad. Bachmann will literally mean the end of america!
paranoid much?


Bachmann would fix this country.
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Re: Tea Party Democrats

Post by Woodruff »

Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote: Just don't make it Bachmann...that's REALLY all I ask.
Just heard an interview about her. Cannot agree more! We thought Pallin was bad. Bachmann will literally mean the end of america!
paranoid much? Bachmann would fix this country.
I thought you liked the Constitution? Michelle Bachmann does NOT like the Constitution, based on her own statements. Bachmann would do her absolutely best to try to eliminate freedom in this nation, without question.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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