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Night Strike wrote:He had already chosen to become an enemy of the United States and had therefore effectively committed treason
Constitution of the United States | Article III, Section 3 No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Night Strike wrote:and/or renounced his citizenship.
United States Code | Title VIII, Section 1481 Citizenship shall be renounced only by making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state
This.
saxitoxin wrote:THOUGHT EXPERIMENT - Can Obama be indicted as an accessory to murder? I'm not fancy lawyer but I contend he can.
1 - Awlaki was from New Mexico which grants universal jurisdiction to their courts for the murder of their citizens.
2 - The New Mexico Criminal Code defines "Accessory" as -
A person may be charged with and convicted of the crime as an accessory if he procures, counsels, aids or abets in its commission and although he did not directly commit the crime and although the principal who directly committed such crime has not been prosecuted or convicted, or has been convicted of a different crime or degree of crime, or has been acquitted, or is a child under the Children's Code [emphasis added by me] http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpext. ... -h.htm&2.0
3 - The NMCC defines "Murder" as -
Murder in the first degree is the killing of one human being by another without lawful justification or excuse, by any of the means with which death may be caused.http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpext. ... -h.htm&2.0
4 - The NMCC itemizes the "lawful justification" for killing as -
Homicide is justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
A. when committed in the necessary defense of his life, his family or his property, or in necessarily defending against any unlawful action directed against himself, his wife or family;
B. when committed in the lawful defense of himself or of another and when there is a reasonable ground to believe a design exists to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury against such person or another, and there is imminent danger that the design will be accomplished; or
C. when necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed in his presence, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in necessarily and lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.
Homicide is justifiable when committed by a public officer or public employee or those acting by their command and in their aid and assistance:
(1) in obedience to any judgment of a competent court;
(2) when necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process or to the discharge of any other legal duty;
(3) when necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or who have escaped or when necessarily committed in arresting felons fleeing from justice;
(4) when necessarily committed in order to prevent the escape of a felon from any place of lawful custody or confinement.
On this basis I contend Obama, upon the expiration of his term, should be indicted, tried and imprisoned for Accessory to Murder by the State of New Mexico.
And this.
Good job, saxi. If I have the opportunity, I might ask around--regarding your 2nd part. (Ultimately, we know that the next president will simply exonerate Obama, just as Obama did with Bush Jr.).
Pirlo wrote:Al-Awlaki praises Nidal Hassan and encourages all Mslim guys inside the US army to follow that dude and kill their own partners.
he also says that all American people are involved because they elected the US government, and provokes Muslim people to kill any American including civilians.
Obviously, this man was extremist and I, personally, see no reason to sympathize with him. not to mention he had violated his own religion which doesn't allow killing people.
Seriously saxi, why are you sympathizing him
Wikipedia is not admissable in court.
When Tokyo Rose was arrested it was obvious to the world she was guilty of Treason. She was the most wanted American collaborator with the Japanese forces.Millions of people had heard her broadcasts. During the due process of investigation and discovery that only a deliberative trial can afford, however, she was ultimately exonerated, let free and even given a medal by a unanimous vote of the California Assembly.
There's a reason independent trials exist instead of the chief of police simply deciding guilt and imposing punishment at his whim. Death is the most permanent punishment that can be imposed. It needs to follow a full and open trial in which the accused has the opportunity to contest the charges, not be done based on YouTube videos and a gut feeling.
ok I give up... all I could do is to provide some info available in my language. If there are any extra info beyond the available stuff, then I definitely have no idea about.
Cheerz....
When I said "YouTube videos" I wasn't criticizing you, my Jordanian gigolo.
That's fine for a message board conversation. I was criticizing that that's all the prosecutor has, as well - some YouTube videos.
No US court has issued an indictment of Awlaki as there's not enough material that meets the standards of evidence to even indict him, let alone convict him. A person in that situation should not face summary execution. The President can now order anyone killed at anytime and anyplace just by signing a paper that says they're a terrorist. He can have someone pulled off the street in downtown Chicago tomorrow, hustled into a sideroom and shot. Maybe someone who criticizes him or protests in front of the White House or exposes government corruption.
Most likely Awlaki was guilty, but that shouldn't be for the police to decide.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
Night Strike wrote:He had already chosen to become an enemy of the United States and had therefore effectively committed treason
Constitution of the United States | Article III, Section 3 No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Night Strike wrote:and/or renounced his citizenship.
United States Code | Title VIII, Section 1481 Citizenship shall be renounced only by making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state
This.
saxitoxin wrote:THOUGHT EXPERIMENT - Can Obama be indicted as an accessory to murder? I'm not fancy lawyer but I contend he can.
1 - Awlaki was from New Mexico which grants universal jurisdiction to their courts for the murder of their citizens.
2 - The New Mexico Criminal Code defines "Accessory" as -
A person may be charged with and convicted of the crime as an accessory if he procures, counsels, aids or abets in its commission and although he did not directly commit the crime and although the principal who directly committed such crime has not been prosecuted or convicted, or has been convicted of a different crime or degree of crime, or has been acquitted, or is a child under the Children's Code [emphasis added by me] http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpext. ... -h.htm&2.0
3 - The NMCC defines "Murder" as -
Murder in the first degree is the killing of one human being by another without lawful justification or excuse, by any of the means with which death may be caused.http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpext. ... -h.htm&2.0
4 - The NMCC itemizes the "lawful justification" for killing as -
Homicide is justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
A. when committed in the necessary defense of his life, his family or his property, or in necessarily defending against any unlawful action directed against himself, his wife or family;
B. when committed in the lawful defense of himself or of another and when there is a reasonable ground to believe a design exists to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury against such person or another, and there is imminent danger that the design will be accomplished; or
C. when necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed in his presence, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in necessarily and lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.
Homicide is justifiable when committed by a public officer or public employee or those acting by their command and in their aid and assistance:
(1) in obedience to any judgment of a competent court;
(2) when necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process or to the discharge of any other legal duty;
(3) when necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or who have escaped or when necessarily committed in arresting felons fleeing from justice;
(4) when necessarily committed in order to prevent the escape of a felon from any place of lawful custody or confinement.
On this basis I contend Obama, upon the expiration of his term, should be indicted, tried and imprisoned for Accessory to Murder by the State of New Mexico.
And this.
Good job, saxi. If I have the opportunity, I might ask around--regarding your 2nd part. (Ultimately, we know that the next president will simply exonerate Obama, just as Obama did with Bush Jr.).
Probably you're right, though that's why I'd contend New Mexico should prosecute Obama. The president can't issue pardons over violations of state law. There are probably dozens of counties in New Mexico, each with an elected District Attorney. It only takes one to summon a Grand Jury. If nothing else it would be mildly embarrassing that post-president Obama couldn't travel to New Mexico without facing arrest.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
rockfist wrote:My God...I am leaning toward siding with the Liberals on this one...Mainly because in any state controlled country with the threat of summary execution I would be a sure target as a micro government person.
You aren't siding with liberals. They just happen to be right for once
Night Strike wrote:He had already chosen to become an enemy of the United States and had therefore effectively committed treason and/or renounced his citizenship.
Translation: he was the wrong colour so who cares.
Troll much??
CreepersWiener wrote:Can anyone please tell us who Alwaki recruited to attack America? It is probably true he had some anti-American sentiment and probably spoke freely about it. So did Rev. Wright...I don't see Obama bombing his house. I even think the first lady had some anti-American sentiment oozing out of her mouth from time-to-time. Perhaps the USA should drop a bunker buster on Target.
Why now? Why kill the guy now? Why didn't they kill the guy years ago?
The New Era of assassinating American citizens that practice their freedom to speak...If the government killed everyone that said, "America Sucks!" that would probably be about six billion people.
He recruited Major Hassan, the underwear bomber, and the Times Square bomber. While he was in the US, he may have actually played an integral role in the 9-11 attacks. He is currently (well, before his death) the leader of Al-Qaeda in Yemen and seen as one of the top leaders in the overall Al-Qaeda network. This man wasn't just speaking: he was inciting violence and recruiting followers to perform acts of terrorism.
Night Strike wrote:He had already chosen to become an enemy of the United States and had therefore effectively committed treason and/or renounced his citizenship.
Translation: he was the wrong colour so who cares.
Troll much??
CreepersWiener wrote:Can anyone please tell us who Alwaki recruited to attack America? It is probably true he had some anti-American sentiment and probably spoke freely about it. So did Rev. Wright...I don't see Obama bombing his house. I even think the first lady had some anti-American sentiment oozing out of her mouth from time-to-time. Perhaps the USA should drop a bunker buster on Target.
Why now? Why kill the guy now? Why didn't they kill the guy years ago?
The New Era of assassinating American citizens that practice their freedom to speak...If the government killed everyone that said, "America Sucks!" that would probably be about six billion people.
He recruited Major Hassan, the underwear bomber, and the Times Square bomber. While he was in the US, he may have actually played an integral role in the 9-11 attacks. He is currently (well, before his death) the leader of Al-Qaeda in Yemen and seen as one of the top leaders in the overall Al-Qaeda network. This man wasn't just speaking: he was inciting violence and recruiting followers to perform acts of terrorism.
Pirlo wrote:Al-Awlaki praises Nidal Hassan and encourages all Mslim guys inside the US army to follow that dude and kill their own partners.
he also says that all American people are involved because they elected the US government, and provokes Muslim people to kill any American including civilians.
Obviously, this man was extremist and I, personally, see no reason to sympathize with him. not to mention he had violated his own religion which doesn't allow killing people.
Seriously saxi, why are you sympathizing him
Wikipedia is not admissable in court.
When Tokyo Rose was arrested it was obvious to the world she was guilty of Treason. She was the most wanted American collaborator with the Japanese forces.Millions of people had heard her broadcasts. During the due process of investigation and discovery that only a deliberative trial can afford, however, she was ultimately exonerated, let free and even given a medal by a unanimous vote of the California Assembly.
There's a reason independent trials exist instead of the chief of police simply deciding guilt and imposing punishment at his whim. Death is the most permanent punishment that can be imposed. It needs to follow a full and open trial in which the accused has the opportunity to contest the charges, not be done based on YouTube videos and a gut feeling.
ok I give up... all I could do is to provide some info available in my language. If there are any extra info beyond the available stuff, then I definitely have no idea about.
Cheerz....
When I said "YouTube videos" I wasn't criticizing you, my Jordanian gigolo.
That's fine for a message board conversation. I was criticizing that that's all the prosecutor has, as well - some YouTube videos.
No US court has issued an indictment of Awlaki as there's not enough material that meets the standards of evidence to even indict him, let alone convict him. A person in that situation should not face summary execution. The President can now order anyone killed at anytime and anyplace just by signing a paper that says they're a terrorist. He can have someone pulled off the street in downtown Chicago tomorrow, hustled into a sideroom and shot. Maybe someone who criticizes him or protests in front of the White House or exposes government corruption.
Most likely Awlaki was guilty, but that shouldn't be for the police to decide.
I understand your concern and I agree that Obama has overstepped his power!
Awlaki was bloody extremist! He had issued a fatwa stating "you have the permission to kill any American with no need to verify, you do not need to make sure it's ok to kill the demon." though I'm not sure what kind of American he gave permissions to kill. (civilian/military... not sure).....
Im confused,in WWII American try everything to capture alive all possible nazi personel and high comant to put hem on trial for crimes who can not measures with Awlaki crime. Even all countries who search for regional nazi criminal try everything to capture these criminal alive. One person who responsibile for 430000 jude extermination,its much importan to be capture alive,and put on trial, and awlaki who "US" call big enemie of america need to be kill withouth trial. I realy want to understand these logic. These become like mafia execution, where you have Godfather who give orders to be killed anyone who are not loyal to hes organisation, these mean any US citizen who are not loyal citizen can be execute withouth trial. Well your constitution become more and more worthless, because all citizens have right to fair trial, or maybe these not exist anymore in US.
Awlaki was bloody extremist! He had issued a fatwa stating "you have the permission to kill any American with no need to verify, you do not need to make sure it's ok to kill the demon." though I'm not sure what kind of American he gave permissions to kill. (civilian/military... not sure).....
Im confused,in WWII American try everything to capture alive all possible nazi personel and high comant to put hem on trial for crimes who can not measures with Awlaki crime. Even all countries who search for regional nazi criminal try everything to capture these criminal alive. One person who responsibile for 430000 jude extermination,its much importan to be capture alive,and put on trial, and awlaki who "US" call big enemie of america need to be kill withouth trial. I realy want to understand these logic. These become like mafia execution, where you have Godfather who give orders to be killed anyone who are not loyal to hes organisation, these mean any US citizen who are not loyal citizen can be execute withouth trial. Well your constitution become more and more worthless, because all citizens have right to fair trial, or maybe these not exist anymore in US.
There is a lot of sketchiness going on in this area. No photo of Bin Laden and his burial at sea (wtf?) and then the Navy Seal team chopper crashed killing 17 of 23 was it? and now this and this all started 3 days before we got Bin Laden when the head of the CIA (Panetta) changed jobs to the Head of the Pentagon.
Awlaki was bloody extremist! He had issued a fatwa stating "you have the permission to kill any American with no need to verify, you do not need to make sure it's ok to kill the demon." though I'm not sure what kind of American he gave permissions to kill. (civilian/military... not sure).....
Im confused,in WWII American try everything to capture alive all possible nazi personel and high comant to put hem on trial for crimes who can not measures with Awlaki crime. Even all countries who search for regional nazi criminal try everything to capture these criminal alive. One person who responsibile for 430000 jude extermination,its much importan to be capture alive,and put on trial, and awlaki who "US" call big enemie of america need to be kill withouth trial. I realy want to understand these logic. These become like mafia execution, where you have Godfather who give orders to be killed anyone who are not loyal to hes organisation, these mean any US citizen who are not loyal citizen can be execute withouth trial. Well your constitution become more and more worthless, because all citizens have right to fair trial, or maybe these not exist anymore in US.
There is a lot of sketchiness going on in this area. No photo of Bin Laden and his burial at sea (wtf?) and then the Navy Seal team chopper crashed killing 17 of 23 was it? and now this and this all started 3 days before we got Bin Laden when the head of the CIA (Panetta) changed jobs to the Head of the Pentagon.
Awlaki was bloody extremist! He had issued a fatwa stating "you have the permission to kill any American with no need to verify, you do not need to make sure it's ok to kill the demon." though I'm not sure what kind of American he gave permissions to kill. (civilian/military... not sure).....
Im confused,in WWII American try everything to capture alive all possible nazi personel and high comant to put hem on trial for crimes who can not measures with Awlaki crime. Even all countries who search for regional nazi criminal try everything to capture these criminal alive. One person who responsibile for 430000 jude extermination,its much importan to be capture alive,and put on trial, and awlaki who "US" call big enemie of america need to be kill withouth trial. I realy want to understand these logic. These become like mafia execution, where you have Godfather who give orders to be killed anyone who are not loyal to hes organisation, these mean any US citizen who are not loyal citizen can be execute withouth trial. Well your constitution become more and more worthless, because all citizens have right to fair trial, or maybe these not exist anymore in US.
There is a lot of sketchiness going on in this area. No photo of Bin Laden and his burial at sea (wtf?) and then the Navy Seal team chopper crashed killing 17 of 23 was it? and now this and this all started 3 days before we got Bin Laden when the head of the CIA (Panetta) changed jobs to the Head of the Pentagon.
Awlaki was bloody extremist! He had issued a fatwa stating "you have the permission to kill any American with no need to verify, you do not need to make sure it's ok to kill the demon." though I'm not sure what kind of American he gave permissions to kill. (civilian/military... not sure).....
Im confused,in WWII American try everything to capture alive all possible nazi personel and high comant to put hem on trial for crimes who can not measures with Awlaki crime. Even all countries who search for regional nazi criminal try everything to capture these criminal alive. One person who responsibile for 430000 jude extermination,its much importan to be capture alive,and put on trial, and awlaki who "US" call big enemie of america need to be kill withouth trial. I realy want to understand these logic. These become like mafia execution, where you have Godfather who give orders to be killed anyone who are not loyal to hes organisation, these mean any US citizen who are not loyal citizen can be execute withouth trial. Well your constitution become more and more worthless, because all citizens have right to fair trial, or maybe these not exist anymore in US.
There is a lot of sketchiness going on in this area. No photo of Bin Laden and his burial at sea (wtf?) and then the Navy Seal team chopper crashed killing 17 of 23 was it? and now this and this all started 3 days before we got Bin Laden when the head of the CIA (Panetta) changed jobs to the Head of the Pentagon.
It stinks
It's odd that many American conservatives (looking at you, Night Strike ) extol John F. Kennedy - who won his election in 1960 by running to the right of Richard Nixon - but don't actually like his policies, like Anti-Zionism.
People forget Kennedy was very concerned by the Zionist menace. He helped Egypt secure weapons from Germany to protect themselves from Israel. (At the time Egypt was only country in the world to which both West Germany and Democratic Germany were supplying arms.) In 1963 he demanded Israel show the U.S. their nuclear bombs the French had given them or he would crush Israel in the United Nations. Within sixty days Kennedy was dead.
No American citizen - not even the President himself, certainly not Awlaki - is as valuable as an Israeli's fingernail in the mind of the USGov. Say anything Israel doesn't like and you'll be shot like a dog in the street. You have no constitutional rights, no right to trial if you cross World Zionism.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
It should be quite disturbing that the President of the United States can just declare an American citizen a terrorist and have him killed without any benefit of a trial or due process.
It's odd, this POTUS kills an American citizen without a trial and at the same time wanted foreign nationals captured and have tried in American courts with Constitutional protections.
This is yet another major overstep of the Executive Branch and another blow to the dismissing of the Constitution. Those who think "He was just a traitor and got what he deserved" should consider two things
-Traitors get a trial
-And how do any know beyond a reasonable doubt that this American Citizen was indeed a traitor? There was no trial and only the flimsiest of "evidence" against him. One can only believe he was a traitor, an act of faith based on the word of a Government official who is known to be a liar anyway.
Sorry, but instead of relying on the good faith and judgment of the United States Government, I'd as soon rather see a trail and have actual evidence put forth.
I would object to the term "executed," given that it implies some sort of legal process. "Assassinated" is the term the press uses, and I think they got it right.
spurgistan wrote:I would object to the term "executed," given that it implies some sort of legal process. "Assassinated" is the term the press uses, and I think they got it right.
Hollywood action-adventure movies and gung-ho CIA espionage dramas has legitimized the word "assassinated" as the sexy, covert shadows of war that occur beneath the covers where heroic James Bond like spies slip stealthily into an enemy capital to off a cartoonish bad guy.
Assassinated may be more correct but the word executed will resonate better to most westerners.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
Not only did Awlaki have a life before jihad, but he lived that life in the United States, as a citizen and (at least on the surface) as someone laboring to forgive and understand the land where he was born. Even as he secretly met with 9/11 hijackers and friends of blind sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman, he was crafting a public persona as a moderate Muslim. Through his pulpit in San Diego and later Falls Church, Virginia, and through lectures distributed on CDs and over the Internet, he reached at least thousands of people with devotional stories that were overtly moderate, or at least embedded his more extreme views deep in the text.
With his alleged death, the narrative that Awlaki wanted to sell us is now complete: the reasonable man, pushed too far, who reluctantly took up the gun and was finally killed by the enemy he dared face.
The effects of this story will likely reverberate for years to come; in the short term, Awlaki's death will probably elevate interest in his entire body of work, from beginning to end.
All this highlights the peculiar dilemma of how the West deals with terrorists of al Qaeda's stripe. Al Qaeda has predicated its war against the United States on the premise that the West is persecuting Muslims and attacking Muslim countries. The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have reinforced that idea, for some people, and the sanctioning of the "targeted killing" campaign against Awlaki raises especially unfortunate overtones concerning due process for American citizens.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Can we settle on "extrajudicial killing"?
Can't have words like "extrajudicial" if you're going to sustain the punters interest. "Without any legal activity, blown up with a missile operated by a countryman sitting at an air-conditioned desk in Omaha?"
It's a bit wordy.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Can we settle on "extrajudicial killing"?
Can't have words like "extrajudicial" if you're going to sustain the punters interest. "Without any legal activity, blown up with a missile operated by a countryman sitting at an air-conditioned desk in Omaha?"
It's a bit wordy.
It's good to see there's at least one like that still around.
Personally I think "murdered" is a fairly accurate term for what the USA did in this instance and did before to people who were not US citizens.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
Night Strike wrote:He had already chosen to become an enemy of the United States and had therefore effectively committed treason and/or renounced his citizenship.
Night Strike wrote:
He recruited Major Hassan, the underwear bomber, and the Times Square bomber. While he was in the US, he may have actually played an integral role in the 9-11 attacks. He is currently (well, before his death) the leader of Al-Qaeda in Yemen and seen as one of the top leaders in the overall Al-Qaeda network. This man wasn't just speaking: he was inciting violence and recruiting followers to perform acts of terrorism.
These seem like accusations that would warrant the arrest of and trial of this individual -
So, Nightstrike, are you going to actually state where you stand on this issue? Should he have been arrested and put to trial or is the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen without trial ok in your eyes?
Night Strike wrote:He had already chosen to become an enemy of the United States and had therefore effectively committed treason and/or renounced his citizenship.
Night Strike wrote:
He recruited Major Hassan, the underwear bomber, and the Times Square bomber. While he was in the US, he may have actually played an integral role in the 9-11 attacks. He is currently (well, before his death) the leader of Al-Qaeda in Yemen and seen as one of the top leaders in the overall Al-Qaeda network. This man wasn't just speaking: he was inciting violence and recruiting followers to perform acts of terrorism.
These seem like accusations that would warrant the arrest of and trial of this individual -
So, Nightstrike, are you going to actually state where you stand on this issue? Should he have been arrested and put to trial or is the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen without trial ok in your eyes?
This individual had chosen to wage war against the United States. He was killed on the battlefield as far as I am concerned. He was killed as an act of war, not as something that required a trial and conviction. Do we go through and give a trial to every person who fights for the enemy?
