XML Update: Finally!! LOL

[QoH]

I can't wait to see what Natty does with the conditional borders update. Should be spectacular.

I'm not going to do anything with it.

Well that's unfortunate.

[DiM]

for some people this update was too little too late.
it would be interesting to count the number of mapmakers/foundry regulars and do something about that.
without bothering to count i'm thinking that the total is somewhere under 10-15 people. which is horrible because this means 2 things:
1. maps take a longer time to produce. less people = less feedback = longer time to get consistent updates.
2. any crap can get to beta as long as the map maker is persistent.

you need some significant changes not just conditional borders to get people interested in the foundry. and no, the map gallery won't be IT. the map gallery will be a novelty for about a month or so and then things will go back to normal.

lack successfully drove away a lot of mapmakers and it's time he did something to keep the ones he has and even bring some new ones. otherwise in a couple of years the only person in the foundry will be cairnswk.

[zimmah]

and now what about a map competition using a draft with all those great new features so we can quick see what we gained
oh btw thank you great divine lack

that would suck. besides, most of the new xml is only really going to make a difference on complex maps.

[MrBenn]

I think the sad thing is that these updates reflect almost exactly the requests and outcome of discussions I had with lackattack over 18 months ago. For me, right now, this is still too little, too late.

The code for conditional borders looks a bit off - predominantly because I don't think that it's explicity set that the name of territories and continents have to be different?

Secondly, there needs to be some clarification about how conditional borders and conditional bonuses work...
Imagine a French Revolution map, where there was a condition required to be able to attack the Bastille. Holding French Revoutionaries would be required to build up a bonus (imagine there's 7 key leaders, which are coded to give a bonus for holding 3 or more). The condition is coded that you need to hold the Revolutionary Leaders to attack the Bastille. Do you need to hold all 7 of them to open the attack option, or any three of them?

[thenobodies80]

The code for conditional borders looks a bit off - predominantly because I don't think that it's explicity set that the name of territories and continents have to be different?

I forgot to write this into the announcement:

• You must then hold that territory/continent in order to activate the border.
• If there is a territory and a continent that both match the condition's name, the territory will be used as the condition

Secondly, there needs to be some clarification about how conditional borders and conditional bonuses work...
Imagine a French Revolution map, where there was a condition required to be able to attack the Bastille. Holding French Revoutionaries would be required to build up a bonus (imagine there's 7 key leaders, which are coded to give a bonus for holding 3 or more). The condition is coded that you need to hold the Revolutionary Leaders to attack the Bastille. Do you need to hold all 7 of them to open the attack option, or any three of them?

I did a similar question to lackattack, I'm waiting an answer since right now I don't know exactly how naming works with collections. I think I have the right answer but I prefer to ask and wait a reply from him.
I'll reply asap.

[greenoaks]

lack successfully drove away a lot of mapmakers and it's time he did something to keep the ones he has and even bring some new ones. otherwise in a couple of years the only person in the foundry will be cairnswk.

i don't have a problem with more australian maps

[Oneyed]

at the first, I ask if anybody active in the site (blue guys, green guys, brown guys...) have any bonuses for time, energy spent here? they all are volunteers so I assume not. or at least get these people premium from CC?

the site needs also mapmakers who will do new, best maps and who will do maps with new XML updates. with current situation it is almost impossible to move any map forward in valid time. there are only 6 Carthographers. if I good understand their role they are here for comments on maps, for holdback graphics standards, for moving maps forward in Map Foundry, to be candid some of them are not much active. this is not blame, just constatation (everybody has real life and other thigs to do). but why is impossible to have more blue guys? I am not long time here, but I found some guys realy active in Foundry and helpfull (natty_dread, koontz, DiM, cairnswk, pamoa, Gilliping, Nola_Lifer - just some who become to my mind. sorry if I forgot anybody). why they can not be Carthographers? I agree with DiM - more people, more options, more help = shorter time to get updates.

conditional borders do not seem for me as any wonder. in XML Suggestions and Modifications II are more ideas for update and much of them are more important and interesting (look at spoiler).

[spoiler]

One of the reasons for starting a new thread, was that I spent a long time reading through the old ones, before forwarding the best of the suggestions to lackattack.

I'll copy those here for reference - none of these features are currently available, and there is no guarantee that any of these will be implemented. The example XML that has been cited is for reference only, and is only there to give an indication for possible implementation of the suggestion. It should not be confused with anything that is currently available.

Conditional Autodeploys
The tag for autodeploy is currently a <bonus> tag within the <territory> collection. It would make more sense (and add more versatility) to add a conditional autodeploy to the <continent> collection.

Code: Select all

<continent>
   <name>Oceania</name>
   <bonus>0</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Indonesia</territory>
      <territory>New Guinea</territory>
      <territory>Western Australia</territory>
      <territory>Eastern Australia</territory>
   </components>
   <autodeploy=”2”>Indonesia</autodeploy>
   <autodeploy=”-1”>Eastern Australia</autodeploy>
</continent>

Killer Neutral Tweak
**NOTE: There is a known bug when players are eliminated by a killer neutral – it may be worth resolving this!

There have been requests to update the killer neutral code to allow for the neutral to respawn/reset to a different value.

Description: At the moment you can have
<neutral>2</neutral>
or
<neutral killer="yes">5</neutral>

The Maze Craze map requires this to be tweaked slightly... could we change to?
<neutral killer="5">2</neutral>
So the neutral initialises with 2 but when captured it returns to 5.

Alternatively add a separate <neutral reset> tag, which could be used with the neutral killer, or proposed decay?

Decay to Neutral
Negative autodeploy currently stops when a territory has a single army on it. With killer neutrals, a precedent has been set for territories to revert to neutral, and so it would be logical to extend the behaviour of decaying territories. However, in order to maintain backwards-compatibility, I would suggest the addition of a <decay> tag:

Code: Select all

<territory>
   <name>No Mans Land</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Dalhart</border>
      <border>Clayton</border>
      <border>Boise City</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>90</smallx>
      <smally>90</smally>
      <largex>200</largex>
      <largey>111</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <bonus>-1</bonus>
</territory>

<territory>
   <name>No Mans Land</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Dalhart</border>
      <border>Clayton</border>
      <border>Boise City</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>90</smallx>
      <smally>90</smally>
      <largex>200</largex>
      <largey>111</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <decay>1</decay>
</territory>

Conditional Borders
Previously (and frequently) referred to as Dynamic Borders, conditional borders have been mentioned a number of times under various guises. Their addition would open up Conquer Club to a whole new level of strategy, and further differentiate from the well-known Hasbro clone
Previous suggestions have incorporated multiple map images, although this could initially be done within a single static image: a 'green key territory' could be used to open attack routes through 'green doors'... hold a ladder/rope to climb/descend... etc. etc.
The below example is an idea of how it could be implemented - continents have been included for versatility.

Code: Select all

   <territory>
      <name>Door</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Hallway</border>
         <conditionalborder>
            <required territory>Key</required territory>
            <required continent>Guardhouse</required continent>
            <border>Drawbridge</border>
            <bombardment>Moat</bombardment>
         </conditionalborder>
      </borders>
   </territory>

Permanent Visibles
There have been murmurs of approval for some sort of sentry/scout/lookout post territories for use in foggy games – territories that can see through the fog, without the ability to attack.
Note: Visibles could theoretically be included in conditional borders (above)

Code: Select all

   <territory>
      <name>Lookout Post</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Inner Wall</border>
         <border>Outer Wall</border>
         <visible>Over The Hill</visible>
         <visible>Far Away</visible>
   </territory>

Perma-fog
The antithesis to the lookout post/permanent visibles, would be permanent fog (for non-adjacent territories)

Code: Select all

<territory>
   <name>No Mans Land</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Dalhart</border>
      <border>Clayton</border>
      <border>Boise City</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>90</smallx>
      <smally>90</smally>
      <largex>200</largex>
      <largey>111</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <bonus>-1</bonus>
   <permafog>True</permafog>
</territory>

Grouped Starting Positions
If there was any way of assigning starting positions to teams, then that would be a very welcome addition. Rather than specifiying positions for particular players, is there any way that the starting positions could be grouped so that groups of positions will be given to the same team… The maximum number of teams in a game is 4 (4x doubles), so perhaps <group> tags could be added each position – and then each player will be assigned positions corresponding with their teammates – but you could keep it randomised so that team 1 would not necessarily be allocated group 1...
If there are more teams than groups, then the start positions should be ignored. Equally, if there are less teams than groups, then each team could be given two positions (ie if there are 4 coded groups in a quads game, then Team 1 (red, green, blue, yellow) would receive two groups, with team 2 receiving the other.

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Britain</territory> 
      <group>1</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>France</territory> 
      <group>1</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Holland</territory> 
      <group>1</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Spain</territory> 
      <group>1</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Portugal</territory> 
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Inuit Homeland</territory> 
      <group>2</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Comanche Homeland</territory> 
      <group>2</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Aztec Homeland</territory> 
      <group>2</group>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Mapuche Homeland</territory> 
      <group>2</group>
   </position>
</positions>

Default Starting Position
It would be nice if you could select a single starting position that would always be allocated – ie. In a Humans v Aliens map, with 7 different species of alien, you could ensure that somebody would represent Humans in every game…

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Humans</territory> 
      <default>True</team>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Ewoks</territory> 
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Vulcans</territory> 
   </position>
</positions>

Objectives Tweak
Amend objectives to include <continent> tags as well as <territory> tags. This would allow for more flexibility of objectives (such as “Control 60% of the board.”)

Starting Bonus Override/Delay
One of the things that we have become semi-obsessional over with maps, is to reduce the probability of the first player receiving (large) bonuses. In order to help mitigate the luck of the drop – and to try and add more balance to the game, it would be nice to be able to specify bonuses to be ignored during round 1 (or possibly to be reshuffled in the same way as when an objective is held on the drop)

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>
   <title>Classic</title>
   <smallwidth>600</smallwidth>
   <smallheight>325</smallheight>
   <largewidth>800</largewidth>
   <largeheight>433</largeheight>
   <filetype>jpg</filetype>

   <delaybonus>
      <continent>South America</continent>
      <continent>Oceania</continent>
   </delaybonus>
 

Game Start Message
Just a simple xml tag to define a message posted to chat or the game log at the start of every game on that map.

Mostly for storytelling or "setting the mood"

Would need standards set - under x number of characters, yes/no to "map created by", "Beware the prison of Alcatraz for you shall never escape it" is a gameplay tip but in character so to speak where "Alcatraz has no outward borders" is just an explanation - which, if either is acceptable, etc etc etc.

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>
   <title>Classic</title>
   <smallwidth>600</smallwidth>
   <smallheight>325</smallheight>
   <largewidth>800</largewidth>
   <largeheight>433</largeheight>
   <filetype>jpg</filetype>

   <startmessage>”"Beware the prison of Alcatraz for you shall never escape it."</startmessage>

</map>

[/spoiler]

Oneyed

[zimmah]

oneeyed. almost everyone you mentioned does not even WANT to be a cartographer.

[Oneyed]

oneeyed. almost everyone you mentioned does not even WANT to be a cartographer.

why? I forgot you, sorry

Oneyed

[DiM]

lack successfully drove away a lot of mapmakers and it's time he did something to keep the ones he has and even bring some new ones. otherwise in a couple of years the only person in the foundry will be cairnswk.

i don't have a problem with more australian maps

that wasn't even remotely the point i was trying to make.

it was more of a praise to cairnswk's resilience and an attempt to raise an alarm about how the foundry will become an empty place.


updates have been promised since 5 years ago and time after time the promises were broken.
it took a strike of the CAs and the map makers for lack to quickly compile the code and give us conditional borders.
some people's reaction is "praise the allmighty lack for giving us this update"
my reaction is "wow, for so many years we were taken for granted and treated like obedient morons"
lack just showed us that if he wants to, or if he's pressured to, then he can come up with updates in a reasonable amount of time. and the fact that he hasn't done it so far proves my previous point that we were taken for granted.
if now things go back to the way they were before the strike then you can kiss goodbye any update in the next couple of years.

[MrBenn]

The other thing that this updates demands is a change to the UI / Game selection options to avoid new/inexperienced players from inadvertently choosing/playing/being invited to more complicated games that deviate ever further from the game of risk that brought most of us here in the first place.

Somebody need to make inroads to map categorisation; I would gladly have headed that project up years ago if I were certain the results of my efforts were ever to have been implemented on the site.

[cairnswk]

Dim, i have to say that one should be grateful for all things small when they are given, instead of exepecting gigantic expressions of your idealism.

It is the small steps in life that create the journey, you should know that by now.

[pamoa]

It is the small steps in life that create the journey

said the wise man who could have wrote the hitchhiker's guide to the CC foundry galaxy

[DiM]

Dim, i have to say that one should be grateful for all things small when they are given, instead of exepecting gigantic expressions of your idealism.

It is the small steps in life that create the journey, you should know that by now.

i've never been one to take small safe steps. i'm more a man of risky leaps. sometimes i fail, sometimes i win, but it's always exciting.

plus, i never said i'm not grateful for this update. it's a good update and i appreciate it but it's nowhere near what was promised all these years. and it would take several such updates for lack to catch up to everything that the foundry needs.

[OliverFA]

Great news! Good to see so many updates being implemented recently

[Nola_Lifer]

Dim, i have to say that one should be grateful for all things small when they are given, instead of exepecting gigantic expressions of your idealism.

It is the small steps in life that create the journey, you should know that by now.

i've never been one to take small safe steps. i'm more a man of risky leaps. sometimes i fail, sometimes i win, but it's always exciting.

plus, i never said i'm not grateful for this update. it's a good update and i appreciate it but it's nowhere near what was promised all these years. and it would take several such updates for lack to catch up to everything that the foundry needs.

It is important to have both, is it not?

[ManBungalow]

Questions about conditional borders;

Is the conditional border activated immediately after the dependent region/continent is taken, or does one have to wait until their next turn to make an attack along the conditional route ?

My thinking is that the game log doesn't explicitly recognise a bonus as having been captured until it actually grants the bonus next turn.

If it does immediately take effect, then some creative people could have fun adding killer neutrals to the mix.

Similarly - if one is in a freestyle game and holds the trigger region at the start of a turn, and loses it during the turn but before making an attack, can you still attack through the conditional route ?

etc

[Teflon Kris]

Power to the People



Well played Nobodies.

[x-raider]

So now we can look forward to an influx of 'recycle bin' maps coming out through XML and into BETA...
One concrete change to be thankful for in the direct aftermath...

[DiM]

So now we can look forward to an influx of 'recycle bin' maps coming out through XML and into BETA...
One concrete change to be thankful for in the direct aftermath...

nope, not really.
first of all there aren't that many maps that would have required these updates.
second, all of those maps should have to earn again their graphics badge if they've been in the bin for a long time.
so straight to beta.... certainly not. but we might have a few (1-2) resurrected maps.

[zimmah]

So now we can look forward to an influx of 'recycle bin' maps coming out through XML and into BETA...
One concrete change to be thankful for in the direct aftermath...

nope, not really.
first of all there aren't that many maps that would have required these updates.
second, all of those maps should have to earn again their graphics badge if they've been in the bin for a long time.
so straight to beta.... certainly not. but we might have a few (1-2) resurrected maps.

like dim said, only about 1 or 2 maps wee really waiting for this. even though the chances may be huge to those maps, they're totally useless for all others. not saying they're bad, just niche.

[x-raider]

yeh. My point is, for anyone who's really depressed about the situation, this is something of substance that is happening.

[zimmah]

well, i agree that it is nice, but i also agree with dim hat it should have been much sooner and it should not need a strike for it to finally happen.

[Bruceswar]

well, i agree that it is nice, but i also agree with dim hat it should have been much sooner and it should not need a strike for it to finally happen.

There are lots of things in wait... but I do see the pace picking up as of late... This is a step in the right direction. If the pace keeps picking up, CC will pick up steam again.

[Nola_Lifer]

When was the last XML update prior to this one? How many updates do we get a year on average? 1 or 2?