Soccer Affair [11/12/2013] V3f pg 4

[thenobodies80]

Kris, did you see blakkrose is italian? He knows what football is.
The map is not about a football match, it is about manage a team.
Said that i suggest everyone to push to make map simpler instead of add new things.

About using the word soccer, i can agree it's just a stupid american word, but we need to consider that this is a site played 90% played by amercans. If you say football, they think about another sport, not soccer. We can fight with them because they are not able to call it like it should be called, but it would be a don quixote war...
I don't expect CC can solve a diatribe that has started ages and ages ago...

[generalhead]

If the map is about the management of the game shouldn't the coaches, managers, and owners be involved in the map?

[Armandolas]

blackrose, i did a mistake in my prev comment. Isaid 2 things that are tottally opposite. 1 is that i understood that is not about a football match but a football tactic, another the use of 2 Gk.
Does not make sense does it?
forget about gk, i like the pitch and how it is structured, and i wanted to say that i understood it the 1st time i saw it
About the rest, u should keep up with your plan. The idea is great, and complexity is great too.
U have a lot of work to do, no doubt about it. So lets start to sort out the graphic stuff, so everything gets more clear. In my opinion a good use of design will help to solve "understanding" problems.
(ex.for me too many bright colours just messes with my brain)

So my 1st advices, turn background to a neutral colour that improve "visibility of" other things
in Floodlights use 1K Mw instead of 1000MW, this will save u space
In main Shareholders, just use the word shareholders..main word not relevant for understanding its purpose

I think some bonus are huge..ex for holding just 3 territs in 243 def u get a +5
Also im wondering, how will u fit stuff in the small map?

[Blakkrose]

...(ex.for me too many bright colours just messes with my brain)

I am using many bright colors in order not to confuse the territories and labels with the rest of the background. I will try to "soften" a little tints.

So my 1st advices, turn background to a neutral colour that improve "visibility of" other things

OK. It will be done

in Floodlights use 1K Mw instead of 1000MW, this will save u space

OK. It will be done

In main Shareholders, just use the word shareholders..main word not relevant for understanding its purpose

OK. It will be done

I think some bonus are huge..ex for holding just 3 territs in 243 def u get a +5

It would seem that you are right but those 3 territories are bordering with many other territories and therefore difficult to defend!

Also im wondering, how will u fit stuff in the small map?

You're absolutely right.
This is a big problem!!!

[Blakkrose]

If the map is about the management of the game shouldn't the coaches, managers, and owners be involved in the map?

In fact they are: Coach and Shareholders are part of the key figures of the map.

[Blakkrose]

After a whole afternoon working on here is the use version 2.
I touched up the color of the background.
I put the icons instead of the names of bonus so as to recover additional space.
In general, I followed your suggestions and I finally eliminated the Parking lot.
The result is not bad but I do not think it goes well yet.

I have yet to remove the references to the Parking lot because I have not had time.
[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_2.jpg[/bigimg]

[Blakkrose]

Today I tidied up a little to the legend.
Now the map looks neater and more pleasant.

I do not think there is room for the referee.
And then, as thenobodies80 says, it is better to simplify rather than complicate the map.

As for the colors I think will suffer a major change to match the color-blind vision

If you give me tips on gameplay come forward.
when the time comes I will update the documentation Topic

[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_2a.jpg[/bigimg]

[Armandolas]

still think background should be simple.try to remove the balls?
legend with the grey blackgorund definitly improved the visualisation quality
get the soccer affair logo abit smaller so u can align text with grey background

[Blakkrose]

still think background should be simple.try to remove the balls?
legend with the grey blackgorund definitly improved the visualisation quality
get the soccer affair logo abit smaller so u can align text with grey background

Ok, I did.
But I want to know if the gameplay is okay.
[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_2b.jpg[/bigimg]

[Blakkrose]

I've updated the documentation Topic eliminating references to the Parking Lot and changing the labels of Shareholders

I'm waiting for your post.
is it really possible that no one is interested in this map?

Thenobodies80, what happened to you?

[thenobodies80]

Here!

Now, the answer you're waiting for:
You're allowed to temporary use your current map as small map. This because there's no way to simplify the legend right now.
As I said you should try to make the map simpler...there's so much going on there! I know you want to create something that cover the whole manager concept, but I fear that the current result can be frustrating for the majority of players. We're used to have mapmakers that make difficult map, to name a name: cairnswk. He does damned tricky maps, but people enjoy playing them. Right now if i see your map i see the legend as a big headache for the vast majority of people. Seriously, you really need all you have on the map?
All those features...are all them necessary? nothing can be cutted without a major lost of enjoyment?
Back on the starting point, I wrote temporary because if during the development you'll find yourself with empty space ( i hope due simplification), please use that space and make the map as much smaller as you can.
Instead if you pass the gameplay stage without any major change, then in that case use the current as small.

I'm really tired today, i hope I was clear, if not please let me know.
Nobodies

[Blakkrose]

Here!

Now, the answer you're waiting for:
You're allowed to temporary use your current map as small map. This because there's no way to simplify the legend right now.
As I said you should try to make the map simpler...

OK, the gameplay has to change, to be simplified, but there is no need to eliminate territories and / or bonuses.
I'm working on a variation on the Budget Panel.
Soon I'll post the changes.

[Blakkrose]

After working with the XML file Temple of Jinn today I created the version 3 of the map.
I have not changed throughout the documentation.
First I want to know if that's good.
is simple enough?
[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_3.jpg[/bigimg]
I added 2 more sponsors, the referee, 3 columns in the Budget Panel and 3 Shareholders.
Now they can play up to 8 players.
At the beginning of the game each player starts with a Shareholder and nothing else.
The Shareholders can attack the Coach, the Referee and the 500 Budget boxes.
Now just follow the arrows of the One Way Attacks and connecting lines to figure out what you can do.

[Blakkrose]

Hey guys this map is so bad?
No one is interested?

[thenobodies80]

The map is not a disaster, i think the main issue in getting feedback for this one is the way the map is represented right now.
This is certainly not a simple map so the main point here is to make it more easy and accessible for the players.

Some things i suggest to do:

1. Put troops on the map, for example....where the players start? I saw them in the OP, but i strongly suggest you to put them on the map.
   If you're searching for some troop numbers, then look here.
   Also add neutrals could be a good choice. It's not mandatory to have troops on the map at a so early stage of production, but for this map i think it would help a lot to understand how the map works.
2. Understand how it works, i think this is the second thing we need to focus on. What's the issue? there're lot of info around, some displayed in a random point of the image.
   As I have already said to you, you should try to reduce the info to the barely minimum or display them in a better way.
   A good job was done for the budget area that i find really clear. But let me use this one to make an example. The budget area is well displayed and it gives all the info...so why have the +50 bonus placed so far from them? And again why a such long phrase to exaplain a simple concept like:" +50 (only once)" ? You can put it where the 5k budget line is.
   Then, "one way attacks ↑" i think it's something self explanatory, never understood why we need to explain a simple thing like an arrow. It's a concept used everywhere in the world to indicate one-way so i think that an arrow is enough. Maybe players don't know the map, but they are not stupid.
   In the same way that legend is just a random list of info that would be better displayed next to the item for which they provide info, obviously imo.
   "only 3 armies per turn" is enough, you don't need to explain there's no territory bonus.
   Why 5k needs a line to explain that attacks shareholders and not just a icon like anything else?
   Why the goalkeeper can bombard tactics? it doesn't make sense to me...why he should? The refree makes perfectly sense, but the goalkeeper i can find the answer.
   What do you mean with "territories in tactics, shareholders & sponsor can't attack each other"? I see nothing that tells me they border, why they should then?
3. Tactics, do you really need to write all regions for all tactics? you have colored circles, you have letters...why you need to explain it with a such unfriendly way? explain the concept instead of write a long list! Or if you want to make it more explained anyway...use a table instead of a list...it will save lot of space
4. Sponsonr, again explain the concept, it can be done in one line. (e.g. +3 for 2 sponsor on the same sideline, +15 for all sponsor)
5. Double arrows on lower stands look very ugly. Make them just longer where needed.

Nobodies

[dolomite13]

Wow this map is daunting. I really want to give feedback but I had a few drinks and my head is spinning just looking at it. I will try and get back to you guys soon but as far as I can tell this is an interesting concept. very strat-o-matic level of depth. I love the work you have done on the map and legend it is so much easier to read now.

I just wish I liked soccer. Even a tiny bit.

=D13=

[perchorin]

I love soccer, and I love football manager type games, so I really hope this map gets made! I do agree that it needs to be simplified however, though please don't ask me for suggestions. Just wanted to pipe in my support for this map!

[Blakkrose]

Put troops on the map, for example....where the players start? I saw them in the OP, but i strongly suggest you to put them on the map.

Ok, these are the Starting Points
[spoiler][bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_3b_Starting_Points.jpg[/bigimg][/spoiler]

Also add neutrals could be a good choice. It's not mandatory to have troops on the map at a so early stage of production, but for this map i think it would help a lot to understand how the map works.

I'll do that as soon as possible

The budget area is well displayed and it gives all the info...so why have the +50 bonus placed so far from them?

Done

And again why a such long phrase to exaplain a simple concept like:" +50 (only once)" ? You can put it where the 5k budget line is.

Done

Then, "one way attacks ?" i think it's something self explanatory, never understood why we need to explain a simple thing like an arrow. It's a concept used everywhere in the world to indicate one-way so i think that an arrow is enough. Maybe players don't know the map, but they are not stupid.

Eliminated

In the same way that legend is just a random list of info that would be better displayed next to the item for which they provide info, obviously imo.

Done

"only 3 armies per turn" is enough, you don't need to explain there's no territory bonus.

Done

Why 5k needs a line to explain that attacks shareholders and not just a icon like anything else?

Done

Why the goalkeeper can bombard tactics? it doesn't make sense to me...why he should? The refree makes perfectly sense, but the goalkeeper i can find the answer.

I do not want to give too much power to the Coach nor the Referee. I prefer to use a third figure.
The Goalkeeper, as well as the Referee have a different point of view and more complete than the other.
The Goalkeeper, being behind all the others, has a more complete view of the game and can change tactics if necessary.
If you have a better idea I would be happy to consider it.

What do you mean with "territories in tactics, shareholders & sponsor can't attack each other"? I see nothing that tells me they border, why they should then?

Ok, I deleted the sentence. I hope that does not cause confusion to players.

Tactics, do you really need to write all regions for all tactics? you have colored circles, you have letters...why you need to explain it with a such unfriendly way? explain the concept instead of write a long list! Or if you want to make it more explained anyway...use a table instead of a list...it will save lot of space

I deleted the list of regions.
It is not enough to specify the concept. I have to keep the bonuses for different tactics.

Sponsonr, again explain the concept, it can be done in one line. (e.g. +3 for 2 sponsor on the same sideline, +15 for all sponsor)

Done

Double arrows on lower stands look very ugly. Make them just longer where needed.[/list]

Done

[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_3b.jpg[/bigimg]

[Blakkrose]

Here is a picture with all the neutral territories
[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_3b_Neutrals.jpg[/bigimg]

[sannemanrobinson]

Well thought out. But as said before, simplicity is key.

So 0,5k budget are starting positions? Players in the field do not have to be starting positions as they can be attacked by the bench. Baseball map is similar.

How do you abtain a bench player? Attacking from the 0,5k budget would be logical I would think. Display is something that becomes relevant with a higher budget.

Normally only 11 players stand in the field. There is a bench so no need to put them in the field.

[Blakkrose]

Well thought out.

Thanks

So 0,5k budget are starting positions?

No. Starting points are the 8 Shareholders.

Players in the field do not have to be starting positions as they can be attacked by the bench. Baseball map is similar.

You say right, but, in this map, only players with the same role.

How do you abtain a bench player? Attacking from the 0,5k budget would be logical I would think.

You get a player of the bench by attacking Coach.

Display is something that becomes relevant with a higher budget.

Do you mean that the cost is high and can only be sustained with a high budget?

Normally only 11 players stand in the field. There is a bench so no need to put them in the field.

I tried to make possible the use of the most common line-up, so I had to put more players.
Obviously possessing only 11 players from the same line-up, you have access to bonuses.
You have to consider players as possible positions!

[sannemanrobinson]

So 0,5k budget are starting positions?

No. Starting points are the 8 Shareholders.

Now I get the loop: Shareholders -> Coach -> Bench -> Field
Coach -> Referee/Tactics/Training
Shareholders -> Budget -> different aquisitions/Shareholders

Ordering this loop on the map might help for clarity, for example by placing the shareholders top left, bench below it, etc.

Display is something that becomes relevant with a higher budget.

Do you mean that the cost is high and can only be sustained with a high budget?

What I did mean was that a display might not be needed for a small soccer club. This makes it a somewhat low priority. Sponsors might have a high priority.

Did you consider aquisition of players? This might be an alternative bonus next to training. It will not make it more simple though.

Normally only 11 players stand in the field. There is a bench so no need to put them in the field.

I tried to make possible the use of the most common line-up, so I had to put more players.
Obviously possessing only 11 players from the same line-up, you have access to bonuses.
You have to consider players as possible positions!

Okay, different line-ups must be possible. Then having more than 11 players in the field could be a losing condition :S. Referee can be made usefull then.

[Blakkrose]

Ordering this loop on the map might help for clarity, for example by placing the shareholders top left, bench below it, etc.

Interesting. I will try to do something ...

What I did mean was that a display might not be needed for a small soccer club. This makes it a somewhat low priority. Sponsors might have a high priority.

I have connected the bonus to Budget Panel according to the number of territories required for each bonus:
Bonus Display requires 3 territories while Floodlights Bonus requires a total of 16 territories.

Did you consider aquisition of players? This might be an alternative bonus next to training. It will not make it more simple though.

I thought about it but it required too much space and too many additional territories.
I deleted the Parking lot because it took up too much space.
I'm trying to limit everything, simplify, as says tnb.
I prefer to avoid the transfer market

Okay, different line-ups must be possible. Then having more than 11 players in the field could be a losing condition :S. Referee can be made usefull then.

It happens too easy to take a position that is not needed: taking players from the field of play is inevitable.
It does not seem so appropriate to insert a losing condition.
I prefer to use the bonuses negative.

[Blakkrose]

I think for many days there was confusion about the functioning of the map due to the fact that I had not yet updated the documentation in the Main Topic.

That's it!

[Blakkrose]

[bigimg]http://www.blakkrose.altervista.org/Calcio_Manageriale/Calcio_Manageriale_3c.jpg[/bigimg]
Here is an attempt to arrange the panels more logically, following the game mechanics.
At the center there is Shareholders Panel. Near this there are the Budget Panel and the Bench.
Near the Bench finally there are the Training Panel and the Tactics Panel.
Better than that I do not think you can do.
I added a background to all labels / legends for the bonuses and I have grouped in the right column all instructions.

I await your opinion.