Congratulations people of Crimea

[DoomYoshi]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

[t-o-m]

My brain is working fine, use yours before you insult me.

But what really surprises me is the number of apologists and pro-Russian aggression people here and elsewhere. I'm an American, and a Northerner, and I view both secession and intimidation in a negative light. If Mexico sent paramilitary units into the Gadsden Purchase, how would these same people react?

Apologies if you took my post as an insult. It was in jest. The way you phrased it (is that the correct phrase? can you 'phrase' images?) was in a humorous way, too. If you actually cared about the comparison with history – Hitler > Sudetenland with Putin > Crimea, then I don't think you would have included the hosting of the Olympics.

That's a complete, inconsequential and irrelevant coincidence – but a funny one at that!


p.s. It is also a very different comparison with US/Mexico. You're right – people would be terribly upset. But that's a world away from what we're discussing.

[saxitoxin]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

I'm sure there's a law against Happy Endings in Ontario.

You spent the last week eating at Taco Bell. You threw all the wrappers and half-eaten Loaded Potato Grillers on the floor, stinking up the place. Instead of just putting them in the garbage can you want to blow-up the Taco Bell?

[DoomYoshi]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

I'm sure there's a law against Happy Endings in Ontario.

You spent the last week eating at Taco Bell. You threw all the wrappers and half-eaten Loaded Potato Grillers on the floor, stinking up the place. Instead of just putting them in the garbage can you want to blow-up the Taco Bell?

I would be happy with blowing up the garbage can (i.e. Putin, the oligarchs and anyone who disrespects freedom of media and human life).

[patches70]

I don't see why the US should go mucking around in it, unless you have some further information that I might not know about.

For one thing, Russia and China are trying to have more clout in Africa. After billions of dollars and 40 or 50 years of support to some of these countries (even longer for Liberia), America can't be seen to be weakening, or else progress in the Middle East and Africa will halt.

This is a geopolitical war. Crimea doesn't matter to the United States. The entire world hangs in the balance here. A resplendent USSR, one that ignores completely international agreements (the Budapest memorandum) will be a problem.

How will Iran respond to nuclear talks after seeing how the US and Russia jointly shat all over that agreement? How will those talks go if all the parties meeting with Iran from Russia and US are sanctioned against each other.

This smacks of the same vein as the Domino Theory. Hell, I grew up hating Russia (I had a "Better Dead than Red" T-shirt) and that we were eventually going to fight a war with the commies.

But as I got older and started seeing things more clearly, I realized that it was all bullshit, just like the Domino theory. If Vietnam fell, then the whole of Asia would fall. Well, Vietnam did indeed fall and guess what? It didn't matter! All the doom and gloom turned out to be bullshit.

Just like the doom and gloom you are preaching here Yoshi. Believe as you will Yoshi. Throw some more red herrings I suppose, but it's still bullshit.

Iran, I remember Obama in the primaries talking about Iran. Iran is a tiny nation compared to the US, and they can't threaten us. He was right! There is no reason to fear Iran, there is no reason to fear Russia. There is no reason to fear period. You are basing your views through the prism of fear. It's not healthy, man. Not healthy at all. You'll make bad choices that way. IMO.

What was it that Roosevelt said? Something eloquent- "There is nothing to fear but fear itself". Those are actually some pretty wise words.

The use of fear is used as a form of coercion, you should know that, understand that. "Be a good citizen or your mother will drown her babies". Hahahaha! Stuff like that. Always has to be a bogey man and keep people afraid. Naw, I don't buy all that jazz. People sell it but I don't buy it. Sorry man, you'll have to figure out a different line, one that actually makes sense.



-------------------------

There is a true morality here. As Jimmy Carter said last night on Letterman, there are now more slaves in the world than at any time in the 19th century or earlier. Russia and China both base their economies on slavery. Regardless of all the stupid human rights (non-discrimination, freedom of speech and religion etc.), slavery is one that most can agree is despicable. And yet Putin hasn't even acknowledged the Crimean sex slave problem.

Ok. So we should go back to cold war setting because Putin doesn't acknowledge the Crimean sex slave problem?
Is there a problem? I don't know, but it's something the Ukraine's or the Crimea's should work on I suppose, I see no reason they shouldn't try to stop it or whatever.

I think the Ukraine's #1 export to the US is porn. I might be wrong about that.

And China, well, don't even get me started on that. For all your talk about having to be tough, can't you see that all we are doing is making Russia and China more cooperative to each other? Is that your intention?

Well, I guess it's time for 'Murica to go on a world wide Crusade to stamp out Sex slavery. WE could start with the massage parlors located in every major US city.

And for China and their slaves, that's what we get with a trade deficit and cheap Chinese goods. It's that trade deficit that got us to be such a powerhouse to be able to go around the world invading and bombing and couping various nations around the planet.
Since you can't control the reserve currency of the world and maintain trade surpluses. It's mathematically impossible. And it's our control of the dollar that has allowed us to be the Superpower that we are today.

Talk about a catch-22! yoshi, you got some real problems to solve! Best of luck to ya.

[saxitoxin]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

I'm sure there's a law against Happy Endings in Ontario.

You spent the last week eating at Taco Bell. You threw all the wrappers and half-eaten Loaded Potato Grillers on the floor, stinking up the place. Instead of just putting them in the garbage can you want to blow-up the Taco Bell?

I would be happy with blowing up the garbage can (i.e. Putin, the oligarchs and anyone who disrespects freedom of media and human life).

Still not sure how Putin can possibly be held responsible for law enforcement, garbage collection, bus service, the summer library reading club, etc., in Mississauga.

[DoomYoshi]

This smacks of the same vein as the Domino Theory. Hell, I grew up hating Russia (I had a "Better Dead than Red" T-shirt) and that we were eventually going to fight a war with the commies.

But as I got older and started seeing things more clearly, I realized that it was all bullshit,

Must have been nice to grow up in the safety of North America instead of say, Vietnam or Czechoslovakia or dare I say, Crimea.

WE (the human race) did go to war with the commies. WE (the North Americans) just sat out that fight like cowards - and then bam bam 9/11. The dominos did fall. I agree it is impossible to predict how they will fall, but in retrospect it is clear. It's so obvious to me that Hitler would take Poland after Austria and the Sudetenland... I probably wouldn't have been able to predict had I been alive in '33.

[patches70]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

So it's Putin's fault that Canada doesn't enforce Canadian law? Hmm, or are these mafia sex rings legal in Canada?

[DoomYoshi]

Still not sure how Putin can possibly be held responsible for law enforcement, garbage collection, bus service, the summer library reading club, etc., in Mississauga.

It's like in Kenya where they say "how can we change anything when the problems just seep over the border from Somalia" and in Somalia they say "how can we change anything when the problems just seep over the border from Kenya" and so on and on down the whole of Africa. What you get is a bunch of desPOTS calling desKETTLES black. I get that.

In the end, I view it as a problem of unlimited supply, constant demand. There are only so many resources to fight this in Canada. We do, however, have tons of resources to fight the Russians.

[DoomYoshi]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

So it's Putin's fault that Canada doesn't enforce Canadian law? Hmm, or are these mafia sex rings legal in Canada?

Been illegal since 2005. Up until this year there was a total of 7 trials of human trafficking (in that same period 30k in the States), this year there was a blitz focused not on punitive measures but on actually freeing the women.

It is a problem of Canada. It is also a problem of Russia. Why not fight it on both fronts? I am doing everything I can here... I want my army and my armies allies (hint, hint, US&A) to do what they can about it.

There you have it, rent-seeking Yoshi.

[patches70]

Yoshi,

When I was younger and being brought up the way I was brought up, I may well have been right along side with you hating on Russia. But I am much older now, very much older (I assume you are fairly young).

The only point I am making is that it might just be a good idea to look at things from the Russian point of view. That would be wise, prudent and responsible when making informed viewpoints.

You for some reason are consumed with great animosity towards Russia. I can dig that, I used to be the same way truth be told, a very long time ago before the Wall came down. I believe that your hatred keeps you from even considering such a thing, from viewing events in the world from Russia's POV.


And that's ok, and I believe you've admitted your utter hatred for all things Russian or Russia or especially Putin. I'm not sure exactly what it was that Putin did to you, but you feel as you do and that's just fine and dandy by me.

For my part, Putin has never done anything to cause harm to me or mine. Maybe he hurt you somehow. If Putin did somehow harm me or mine, I may well turn to complete hatred of the man myself, but that hasn't happened, lucky me it seems.


I remember, watching GW Bush giving his famous "Axis of Evil" speech. He'd make a point, the crowd which was Congress would stand up and clap solemnly and reverently before sitting back down to listen to more. I remember thinking "Do these people even understand what Bush is saying? Do they understand what we are about to embark on?" The answer sadly became apparent. No they didn't. Otherwise everyone wouldn't have gone so apeshit over the invasion of Iraq. Bush said he'd do it right in the speech.

And then I'd remember all the other great speech from past presidents, with the same deal. The president would say something, Congress would stand, clap and sit; stand, clap and sit. And then I remember reels of Russian presidents giving speeches speeches with the Russian version of Congress doing the same thing. Stand, clap and sit. Stand, clap and sit.

It didn't matter what any of them were saying, they were saying the same things. "Their side is evil, our side is good" and it occurred to me. We weren't much different at all from them. We each wanted to spread our way of doing things around the world. Whether or not those things were the right thing to do was a given. Each side thought they were right.

But the point is, we have more in common with the Russians than we have differences. You, yoshi, have more in common with the average Russian person than you have differences. Your politicians have more in common with Russian politicians than they have differences.

And that the best way to proceed is to build upon that which is common between ourselves.

The sooner people start thinking like that instead of "they are evil this, they are evil that" and feeling nothing but fear and hatred, the better off we'll all be in the long run.
And for God's sake, be they Russian, Canadian, American or whatever, if you are going to make any assumptions then make the assumption that the politician is a lying sack of shit. Your, mine, their's. Don't get caught up in their bullshit.

[saxitoxin]

Actually, continuing on the sex slavery idea... bringing it right back around. In my city, there are many massage parlors who have amazing profit margins mainly because they rely on girls who never went to school and have been forced to do this their entire lives. In bordering cities, the girls come from Asia, but Niagara Falls is strictly Russian mafia controlled. When I say it's a big problem, I mean it. We have 1 "massage parlor" per 4800 residents. Old hotels have been converted into mafia bases. Following the chain of command to the top, it always ends with the oligarchs. Russia declared war on me 10 years ago when they bought out all the strip clubs and parlours. Every day it directly ruins my neighborhood and my life.

I am sure to a lesser extent, the same is true of wherever you live.

So it's Putin's fault that Canada doesn't enforce Canadian law? Hmm, or are these mafia sex rings legal in Canada?

Been illegal since 2005. Up until this year there was a total of 7 trials of human trafficking (in that same period 30k in the States), this year there was a blitz focused not on punitive measures but on actually freeing the women.

It is a problem of Canada. It is also a problem of Russia. Why not fight it on both fronts? I am doing everything I can here... I want my army and my armies allies (hint, hint, US&A) to do what they can about it.

There you have it, rent-seeking Yoshi.

One Tomahawk missile cost $1.4 million. With benefits, pension, etc., you could hire 14 police for a year for the same price. You could have two full-time cops standing outside every single massage parlor in Canada for half the cost of going to war with Russia. Plus there would be a 99% decreased chance that Calgary would get turned into a pile of smoldering rubble by the Strategic Rocket Forces. Pimps don't usually have nukes.*


* except in Miami**

**according to an episode of Burn Notice I saw

[DoomYoshi]

Re: patches - War is the only vocation of man. No peace mongering here.

Re: saxi, but if you already have the tomahawks, why not use them? How many guns does the US military buy that never see active service before they are antiquated?

Also, Canadian cops are useless. They can't even enforce the speed limit.

[Jmac1026]

Been illegal since 2005. Up until this year there was a total of 7 trials of human trafficking (in that same period 30k in the States), this year there was a blitz focused not on punitive measures but on actually freeing the women.

It is a problem of Canada. It is also a problem of Russia. Why not fight it on both fronts? I am doing everything I can here... I want my army and my armies allies (hint, hint, US&A) to do what they can about it.

There you have it, rent-seeking Yoshi.

You're saying that you'd be willing to have a (potentially thermonuclear) war with Russia over sex-slaves? I am not saying that isn't absolutely deplorable, and a major problem in the world today, but you'd want hundred of thousands of people to die for this?

I find that difficult to believe.

[Jmac1026]

And let's not play pretend here. Your Canada would get invaded, that's unquestionable. The U.S. and Russia would both prefer to fight it out in Europe and Canada than in their own countries.

[DoomYoshi]

Been illegal since 2005. Up until this year there was a total of 7 trials of human trafficking (in that same period 30k in the States), this year there was a blitz focused not on punitive measures but on actually freeing the women.

It is a problem of Canada. It is also a problem of Russia. Why not fight it on both fronts? I am doing everything I can here... I want my army and my armies allies (hint, hint, US&A) to do what they can about it.

There you have it, rent-seeking Yoshi.

You're saying that you'd be willing to have a (potentially thermonuclear) war with Russia over sex-slaves? I am not saying that isn't absolutely deplorable, and a major problem in the world today, but you'd want hundred of thousands of people to die for this?

I find that difficult to believe.

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

And let's not play pretend here. Your Canada would get invaded, that's unquestionable. The U.S. and Russia would both prefer to fight it out in Europe and Canada than in their own countries.

That's not an entirely terrible idea. Canada should have mandatory military service.

[DoomYoshi]

From an environmental perspective, nuclear war isn't all that bad. The largest ecoreserve in Europe is the area immediately surrounding Chernobyl.

Canada is pretty much asking for a nuclear war. There are now only 500 hunters and trappers in the country (professional). It is time we learned about survivalism.

[patches70]

Been illegal since 2005.

So, up until 9 years ago sex slavery was legal in Canada? And you are blaming Russia? Bwahahahaha!

Up until this year there was a total of 7 trials of human trafficking (in that same period 30k in the States), this year there was a blitz focused not on punitive measures but on actually freeing the women.

Ha! My country is doing more to fight the problem than your country! Nyaa nyya na nyaaa yaaa.

Tell your officials to start enforcing the law then.

It is a problem of Canada. It is also a problem of Russia. Why not fight it on both fronts?

So, you claim your hatred of the Russian leaders and then also want their help? hmmmm.....You know, you'll catch more bees with honey than with shit.

I am doing everything I can here...

And that's all you can do in life!

I want my army and my armies allies (hint, hint, US&A) to do what they can about it.

f*ck you! I tell you what Yoshi, you join the military and go fight the good fight then if that's how you feel. But damn you to hell telling other people to go fight and die for your cause!

Yeah, it's easy to call for action when you ain't the one doing the killing and the dying. I have been civil with you, sir, and I will continue being civil with you, except for this one point.
f*ck you, fight your own fucking wars, do your own fucking killing.

Don't worry, if you start getting the shit kicked out of you, like I know you would eventually, Canada going up against Russia, we, the US would certainly come to the aid of our friends the Canadians.

Hopefully you are just being tongue in cheek with this last bit. I certainly hope so. But I have an extreme displeasure with fools who go calling others to go march off to war to fight and die and sacrifice while those calling for the war have no intention of fighting it for themselves.

By all means, Yoshi, you don't even have to join the Canadian military. Just become a mercenary and head over the Chechya and you can fight Russians to your heart's content. More power to you.

But I am tired of my country, my people doing all the fighting, dying and bleeding trying to change things that have been going on since the dawn of civilization.

There is a better way to go about it and for once it would be nice if we would just try a different line.

I shall now resume being civil to you. Accept my apologies if I offend you for telling you to lick my ass instead of fighting your wars for you.

Peace!

[DoomYoshi]

No offense. I understand that... wars in the end do depend on the lower class. If not for wars, what do they have? The Arsenio Hall show?

[tzor]

You give us way too much credit. Fifteen to twenty percent of Americans couldn't point to Ukraine on a map.

I would say that Fifteen to twenty percent of Americans can't point to America on the map.

[Juan_Bottom]

I'm an American, and a Northerner, and I view both secession and intimidation in a negative light. If Mexico sent paramilitary units into the Gadsden Purchase, how would these same people react?

I'd be pissed. But last I checked, I have a pretty clear vested interest in the non-invasion of the Gadsden Purchase. I don't have the same vested interest in making sure Ukraine isn't part of Russia (at least not enough of a vested interest to pound the table and demand that my country does something about it).

I disagree; if Mexico occupied the Gadsden Purchase it wouldn't affect you anymore than Russia occupying Ukraine.

Everyone wants to live in Fantasyland Utopia, no one wants to live in a Dystopian Wasteland. It's understandable if some of them are too frightened to be able to confront their circumstances and effect change from within. Those ones will cover their eyes in the flag and loyally regurgitate the slogans being repeated by their regimes. The west is essentially a sprawling, right-wing, fascist mega-state.

This may all be true, but two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact that the U.S. has degenerated into a sadistic fascist police state does not mean that Russia has not.

The fact that BATF agents are able to literally get away with murder under the the guise of the War on Drugs, and that the the NSA plays Big Brother under the guise of the whimsically-titled "War on Terror" does not change the fact that former KGB agents in Russia enjoy the same immunity to the rule of law.

Calling Putin a hero because he's helping to embarrass Obama is like calling Stalin a nice guy because he helped defeat Hitler. One wicked tyrant scoring points at the expense of another is not an exercise in moral ascendancy.

This is what I'm talking about. I do not understand this rise of Putin-worship that has happened, especially in America. I'm sure that for many rednecks, they love Putin as the anti-hero, the anti-Obama hero, but is that really enough to explain away the positive reception that Putin gets in media? His country has a 99% conviction rate, an insanely high corruption rate, and just flooded Crimea with paramilitary units. Putin has been executing and imprisoning political enemies for years, including reporters. Putin's paramilitary in Crimea were detaining reporters and destroying their photographs and memory cards - that's how well they behave when the whole world is watching them. It's not a good place to live. Russia is 100X the police state that the United States is. So what is up with all the love?

Apologies if you took my post as an insult. It was in jest. The way you phrased it (is that the correct phrase? can you 'phrase' images?) was in a humorous way, too. If you actually cared about the comparison with history – Hitler > Sudetenland with Putin > Crimea, then I don't think you would have included the hosting of the Olympics.

That's a complete, inconsequential and irrelevant coincidence – but a funny one at that!


p.s. It is also a very different comparison with US/Mexico. You're right – people would be terribly upset. But that's a world away from what we're discussing.

It's not really that different. The Gadsden Purchase has a history of being Mexican property and is full of Mexican Americans.

The Olympics are important for 1 reason alone, and that is the perception of power. I don't believe that either Hitler or Putin needed the Olympics to boost their egos or their own perception of power; but that their entourage/nation needed it. Neither Putin nor Hitler cared what anyone in the west thought or thinks. But the Crimean's who describe themselves as Russians have seen a resurgence of Russian prominence in the last decade, and the success of the Olympics is paramount to that. At the same time, they've seen the government in Kiev degenerate into open corruption, followed by the messy revolution. It lends itself to the most dangerous word in politics - nationalism. Nationalism for the Crimean Russians, and Nationalism for the rest of Russia too. Victory has no price at all for them, and they are like no other people.
I would be very uncomfortable to be a Ukrainian or a Tatar in Crimea. Especially a Tatar... they weren't even permitted to vote during the Russian occupation.
And if Hollywood has taught me anything, it's that only the shallowest souls who are attracted to power.

[thegreekdog]

@ patches, sure, if one ascribes to realism. If one prefers "international liberalism" (i.e. invade countries to spread democracy and/or stop violence with violence), then one can insert as many moral claims as they see fit.

Okay, but that's still in the invader's best interest, right?

I'm 100% all in on patches70's theory. If the United States can demonstrate to me that it's in the country's best interest (and, more importantly my best interest) to do X, then I am in favor of said action (morality aside).

So, TGD, has the US, Obama, Kerry and the rest made the case to your satisfaction that it's important enough for us to intervene, that it's in your best interests? And more importantly, that it's in our nation's best interest?

For my part there has been zero reason provided for why it's worth it for the US to take such a line, especially considering consequences for said actions which would be/are inevitable.

I just can't see any upside to losing Russia just to gain the Ukraine. That's a horrible trade off. And pushing Russia and China closer together is absolutely horrible. One of our saving graces was that Russia and China pretty much hated each other. I prefer it like that. Now that I can view as in national interests, keeping those two from getting too chummy with each other. As it's going now, it's not going so well and it all could have been avoided by just keeping our noses out of Ukraine's business.

I swear these world leaders act like spoiled children that absolutely cannot allow anyone else to throw egg on their face even if said world leaders threw said egg on their own face.

Short answer - no.
Long answer - your post.

[thegreekdog]

@ patches, sure, if one ascribes to realism. If one prefers "international liberalism" (i.e. invade countries to spread democracy and/or stop violence with violence), then one can insert as many moral claims as they see fit.

Okay, but that's still in the invader's best interest, right?

I'm 100% all in on patches70's theory. If the United States can demonstrate to me that it's in the country's best interest (and, more importantly my best interest) to do X, then I am in favor of said action (morality aside).

No, not necessarily. It depends on how the state's interests coincide with each major policymaker view of the "state's" interests. For example, most realists were against the Iraq War 2.0 invasion, but a small group of neocons got their way with their international liberal agenda. The "state" then invades Iraq because that was within the "state's" interests.

National interest varies in degrees too. There's 4 categories for state's interests: Vital, Important, Peripheral, and No Interest. Realists would put invading Crimea at Peripheral or Zero. International liberals would put it at Vital or Important.


I like the realist aspect of patches' points, but realism does have a normative guideline: maximize state security. Having a normative guideline is unavoidable but having a complementary, moral guideline is necessary; otherwise, you could find plenty of reasons to beat up or threaten other people.

For example, suppose the US could maximize GDP by an additional 10% per year by killing 25% of the poor people and 25% of the very old people. Poverty falls drastically (cuz some of them die), but also because growth of 10% per year is insanely awesome. We'd all be ballers within a generation.

How would you know that such a policy is in the country's best interests without relying on any moral guideline?

So many questions.

I guess the first thing is that morality does play a part in a nation's best interest (those of us that play Europa Universalis call it "Bad Boy Score"). Ignoring the cost in lives and dollars and ignoring that there was no benefit (that I can see) in invading Iraq, the invasion eroded the influence of the United States in the world and eroded the confidence of consumers in the United States generally. Further, if we drill down to the party level, we can see that the Iraq invasion has cut out a large swathe of the support for neo-conservatives so much so that most Republicans are going to go out and vote for an ostensible libertarian (if Phatscotty's polls can be believed). So our immoral actions, which may be in the nation's best interests, end up costing us and being not in our best interests. So, in Europea Universalis jargon, if, as France, I invade England, the Netherlands, and Spain and take huge chunks of land, the Prussians, Russians and Italian League are going to declare war on me. So not only is it immoral of me to invade, it's not in my best interest to invade England, the Netherlands, and Spain.

The second thing is that it just so happens that my view on military intervention happens to coincide nicely with morality so it's pretty easy for me to say "don't get involved because I don't want Americans and/or brown people to die" and also say "it's not in my best interest to pay more taxes and/or increase US debt to kill more brown people."

The third thing is that I'm fairly certain we (the United States) don't do anything for moral reasons only. We've let a whole lot of genocides or attempted genocides or violence go unchecked if it's not in our best interest or if it's in our best interest to let them go on.

[thegreekdog]

The mistake is in being sucked into the false choice that western leaders are either correctly pursuing state interests or incorrectly pursuing state interests.

Normal IR theories - defensive realism, offensive realism, feminist constructivism, liberalism, Marxism, etc. - don't apply here because state interests are not at play. These are personal interests, the opportunity to grow new markets and, with them, new power. The resulting spoils are being used to line individual bank accounts. When the U.S. loots a country it doesn't divvy up the booty between American citizens. The U.S. government is the personal commercial enterprise of the people running it. They have an interest assigning a portion of the treasure to various vassals (the Republicans to big business, the Democrats to social interest groups), but that's the cost of doing business, like paying your employees. It's not what Inghram and Schneider meant when they discussed pluralist policymaking.



Once one rejects this 5th grade civics way of looking at the world - capitalism, communism, etc. - and realizes the U.S. is neither capitalist nor communist, but is in fact a feudal nation, a landstaat run for the benefit of the MEP chiefs, the inconsistencies of state actions resolve themselves.

Yeah, I think most of us (e.g. BBS, patches, me) understand that. And that's ultimately kind of my point. If it's in my (thegreekdog's) best interest for Apple to sell more product in Country X and the only way for Apple to do that is for the United States to prop up a despot / invade / bomb / spy / sanction, then I'm in favor of it (again, ignoring morality, cost to me in present and future taxes, and the drop in United States influence).

[thegreekdog]

I disagree; if Mexico occupied the Gadsden Purchase it wouldn't affect you anymore than Russia occupying Ukraine.

it would affect me more, but you're right, I still probably wouldn't care enough to go to war if Tuscon was part of Mexico.