Game of Thrones (series spoiling only!)

[jonesthecurl]

And when someone said "It's a new moon". was that the first time it's been mentioned that there's a moon?

[strike wolf]

Why does Littlefinger sound Irish now?

Eh it doesn't completely seem irrational. Westeros is closely related to British isles (First Men=pre-Roman inhabitants, The Wall=Hadrian's Wall, the actual shape of the land resembling the main island, North of the Wall=Scottland), with some other European influences (White Walkers=the Frost Giants from North Mythology?) and a few American influences (Children of the Forest, most notably), so it would make sense for Ireland to be included. I did notice the accent seemed to be more noticeable than it had been in previous seasons, though not enough to really bother me. It could have even have been the director saying or even George R.R. Martin, you should sound more Irish.

Esteros has more Asian, African and Middle Eastern influences but also some European as well. Qarth seems to be more like Persia + some of the ancient Middle Eastern cities with it's oasis in the desert feeling. Valyria seems to be most closely related to Rome with some Greek influence. The Slave Cities were once part of the Ghys Empire which appears to be the Ancient Egyptian Empire. The Summer Isles are part of Africa. Braavos, Pentos and a few other cities which were all ruled by Romans originally seem to be a mix of some Asian and European features.

And when someone said "It's a new moon". was that the first time it's been mentioned that there's a moon?

Other than the "Moon Door" being mentioned in season 1, Part of Drogo/Daenerys's words to each other was "Moon of my nights" or something like that. I know there are more references to the moon in the books. Though that is probably a Vale/Arryn saying since their symbol is a falcon and a moon. So that's probably why it hasn't been heard very often.

[pearljamrox2]

Really liked that episode.

I didn't realize Arya wants to kill the Hound though. I can't remember particularly why (other than general dickery, but he did save her life).

There are far more names on her "kill list" than there are in the book. Beric Dondarrion seemed especially odd to me - what did he do to Arya to get on the list?

Also, the reason Arya wants to kill The Hound is exactly the reason I hate her. She wants to kill him because she killed the "innocent" butcher's boy, yet since that happened Arya herself has killed at least 2 "innocent" people (the boy in King's Landing and the guard during her escape in Harrenhal). You can add in the guy she killed just before Raff the Sweetling, and a handful of other people she's killed along the way, and it makes her a very compulsive and vindictive character. She is (as yet) unable to see the hypocrisy of herself wanting to kill The Hound for something she's done herself.

Are you really that dense? Sure it's the EXACT same thing. Arya, who is what 9? 10? Her whole household in Kings Landing has been slaughter, or captured. She is running for her life/freedom. Some little prick tries to stop her. She was totally justified to defend herself, and she didnt even do it on purpose, the idiot walking right into her sword. Here



And you are trying to compare that to a 6'6 huge man, one of the most feared fighters in westeros, riding down and killing an innocent boy, who's only "crime" was playing with Arya. That kid was harmless, posed absolutely no threat to anyone, immediate or otherwise.

And....some fucking guard at Harrenhal? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? So..what you are saying is...if you and your friends get kidnapped, beaten, tortured, and have to lie about your identity so you aren't killed....are you telling me that you wouldn't have a right to defend yourself?

You dont think you would be a little vindictive? If your father was beheaded right in front of you? And your mother and brother killed at a family wedding...after you had gone thru so much to get back to them.

Arya has every right to protect herself. That does not make her a hypocrite, not even close. After having her entire family decimated, killed or scattered to the wind, and her home burned to the ground..I'd say she has every right to do whatever she fucking can. I want to see her take down all of her enemies. Pave 'em all over and turn it into a parking lot. Arya is the tip of the spear. She is only getting started!

[strike wolf]

In fairness, the innocent child was accused of aiding in attacking a king and he ran. Compared to what Cersei would order done to him, killing out right may have actually been a favor (not that the Hound was thinking like that most likely). There is a difference between the show and the book in how Arya's first kill (the stable boy) happened. The show makes it seem more of an accident (though there does seem to be a good bit of intent there, in that she knew he was standing there and it was a stabbing motion), the book clearly shows that Arya meant to "stick him with the pointy end". Denominator seems to be drawing from the book, particularly with his reference to Harrenhal. The below could be considered a spoiler but it is minor and something that did not happen in the show so read if you want:

Spoiler

In the book, after Jaqen Hghar fulfills his debt to Arya by taking the three lives. Rather than having fled directly from Harrenhal, she stays there for a bit after it is taken over by Roose Bolton (most of the scenes shown in the show as being between Arya and Tywin were actually Arya and Roose scenes). Roose liked Arya for the fact that she was instrumental in them taking over the fort but even though she knew he was one of Robb's bannermen, she never trusted him enough to reveal herself. Eventually she decided that if she couldn't reveal herself, she would need to move on and try to find her family another way. She took her friends with her as well as some weapons from the armory. The one obstacle was a lone guard on one of the gates. While the others waited for her signal. She pretended that she had come to him for Roose to give him a bonus as a thank you and pretended she had a piece of coin in her hand. When he leaned in close, she slit his throat and they escaped.

I do agree with you that there is some difference but Arya does show a lot of signs of becoming a fairly merciless killer. Furthermore, The Hound is one of the more complex characters in the series being at times capable of seemingly legitimate good deeds and, at other times, an evil bastard.

[pearljamrox2]

Regarding the boy she killed, accident or not, do you agree..that the boy was trying to stop her from leaving the place where her household were slaughtered..including (assumed) her fighting instructor Syrio..who at that moment was probably dying while giving her time to escape..and this boy tried to stop her. Was she wrong to kill him...accidently or not?

I have been watching the show closely..havent read the books. You say she is a merciless killer. A killer..yes, that is not much of a debate. But, please..name an instance..SO FAR..in the show...where she has killed someone that didnt deserve? Did she kill the father and daughter that let them stay, when the hound robbed them? Has she hurt any good innocent person at anytime in the show? I don't think she has crossed any line. She is living in a place where people are being murdered, raped and anything else you can think of on a daily basis, without fear of consequences. And the same could happen to Arya, and even worse if the wrong people find out who she is. She has no safe place to go..anywhere in this world. She can't just run away forever..nor should she have to. If the Starks are going to avoid being wiped of the face of this world...someone, somewhere is going to have to fight for them, and a lot of people are going to have to die. She didnt create this world, but she is living in it. She will have to do what she has to do.

[patches70]

I have been watching the show closely..havent read the books. You say she is a merciless killer. A killer..yes, that is not much of a debate. But, please..name an instance..SO FAR..in the show...where she has killed someone that didnt deserve?

Hahaha!

Don't get me wrong, I love her story line. It may seem boring right now on the show but it's going to get interesting, for sure lemme tell you. People are going to love the Arya lines in later seasons.

But so far as in the show, deserve isn't really the right word, IMO. The stable boy certainly didn't "deserve" to be killed. It's not like he had some nefarious plan to slaughter her family. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and made the wrong decisions based on emotional or incomplete information. Heck, if he'd known that Arya was running for her life he might have been "get out of here!". But he was just kind of a bully or what not, thinking in his own narrow terms.

Arya kills who she has to, including her list. She has to kill those people, in the same way people tell themselves they have to get up and go to work at a job they don't really want to do because duty, responsibility, honor or whatever.
She may even change her tune with some names on her list, we'll see soon enough.

As to The Hound, him "saving her life" and she should "owe" him or whatever, it ain't like that at all. Arya is a hostage, in the medieval sense. The Hound is going to ransom her, he doesn't give a shit about her except how much money she can bring and she'll bring more money if she's alive than dead.
Arya doesn't owe him a damn thing.
But...she may just change her tune one day. We'll have to see I suppose. There may come a day when Arya has The Hound at her complete mercy, and then we'll see if she kills him or not, despite her list. Time will tell.


But, like you, I don't hold anything against how Arya acts at all. I can understand. I wonder, though, will you be so understanding later?

That is the question.

[Gillipig]

Why does Littlefinger sound Irish now?

Because just like the Irish, Littlefinger shouldn't be trusted.

[Gillipig]

In fairness, the innocent child was accused of aiding in attacking a king and he ran. Compared to what Cersei would order done to him, killing out right may have actually been a favor (not that the Hound was thinking like that most likely). There is a difference between the show and the book in how Arya's first kill (the stable boy) happened. The show makes it seem more of an accident (though there does seem to be a good bit of intent there, in that she knew he was standing there and it was a stabbing motion), the book clearly shows that Arya meant to "stick him with the pointy end". Denominator seems to be drawing from the book, particularly with his reference to Harrenhal. The below could be considered a spoiler but it is minor and something that did not happen in the show so read if you want:

Spoiler

In the book, after Jaqen Hghar fulfills his debt to Arya by taking the three lives. Rather than having fled directly from Harrenhal, she stays there for a bit after it is taken over by Roose Bolton (most of the scenes shown in the show as being between Arya and Tywin were actually Arya and Roose scenes). Roose liked Arya for the fact that she was instrumental in them taking over the fort but even though she knew he was one of Robb's bannermen, she never trusted him enough to reveal herself. Eventually she decided that if she couldn't reveal herself, she would need to move on and try to find her family another way. She took her friends with her as well as some weapons from the armory. The one obstacle was a lone guard on one of the gates. While the others waited for her signal. She pretended that she had come to him for Roose to give him a bonus as a thank you and pretended she had a piece of coin in her hand. When he leaned in close, she slit his throat and they escaped.

I do agree with you that there is some difference but Arya does show a lot of signs of becoming a fairly merciless killer. Furthermore, The Hound is one of the more complex characters in the series being at times capable of seemingly legitimate good deeds and, at other times, an evil bastard.

Without spoiling too much let's just say that this isn't the last time Arya kills someone and that it will become harder and harder to claim she is "just defending herself". She becomes quite the dark character and it will be fun to see how Maisie will deal with that change in personality.

[strike wolf]

I mean the fact that she actually has a kill list of people she wants to kill not has to kill but wants to kill is fairly dark to begin with.

[Gillipig]

I mean the fact that she actually has a kill list of people she wants to kill not has to kill but wants to kill is fairly dark to begin with.

What's interesting is that her personality was already a bit different from other girls even when there wasn't war, war changes everyone but it changes people in different ways, Arya grew extremely vengeful, violent and cold. While Sansa grew distrusting, frightened and manipulative. JRR Martin has done a good job with highlighting that.

[denominator]

My issue is not with Arya's actions - it's her kill list.

The Hound was ordered by either the king or the crown prince to go get the butcher's boy. He was, for all intents and purposes, at that point a fugitive and by running, opened the opportunity for The Hound to ride him down. I don't agree with Sandor's play there, but it makes sense.

Arya's actions also make sense, with each kill. But the point is that she doesn't see that her reason for wanting to kill The Hound would mean if she were being fair, she'd have to add herself to the list as well.

And....some fucking guard at Harrenhal? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? So..what you are saying is...if you and your friends get kidnapped, beaten, tortured, and have to lie about your identity so you aren't killed....are you telling me that you wouldn't have a right to defend yourself?

As for the guard, I'll admit I may be wrong about how she did it in the show. I watched it a long time ago and don't remember much of season 2, while I read the second book more recently. In the book, she is very cold and calculating about it as a means to an end - which is the same motive as the other people on her list.

[pearljamrox2]

Believe me, I have put a lot of thought into Arya. I am afraid of her dying(not anytime soon), but I am also hopeful that she doesn't go "too far". Yes, it is shocking to see any child kill someone(or even root for them to). I don't know the storyline in the future (although I have a lot of clues).
She always wanted to be like her brothers..training to fight instead of doing all the girly things. She even named her Direwolf after a female warrior, Nymeria. That's what she always wanted to be. Ironically, all of the terrible things that happened to her family, that's probably the only way she was going to actually become one.
Why don't people think that Robb was "dark"? How many people did Robb kill? Is it because he is older, and a male, that it is ok for him to kill people? Is it because he was a leader of an army? When Arya and the Hound went to the inn, and met up with Polliver. All I read anywhere was how dark Arya was getting? Forget all the things that made it vengeful for Arya. Those guys were robbing the innkeeper. They were going to rape his daughter. Polliver made an offer to the Hound to trade Arya for some chicken so they could do the same to her. And they had been doing this all over the countryside, and planned on doing it some more. Who in the whole kingdom is doing anything about that? NOBODY. I'd watch a whole show of just her and the Hound riding across the country dispatching all people like that. The show has always portrayed Arya as having the "stark" sense of right or wrong. Yes, she is hot headed and flies off the handle a lot, but she has always been in the right.
Rewatch the scene I posted in my last post. The slaughter didnt happen the day before or something. It was still going on at that moment. There are dead bodies all around on the ground in this scene. The kid called her wolf-girl (he knew exactly who she was). She offered a reward to let her go, and he said he'd get a reward, from the queen (thats a threat), and then he tried to take control of her (grabbed her wrist). She was already going for needle before he got there, as he grabbed her, she was trying to say, Stay Away..but it just happened. She had every reason to fear for her life. I guess the kid didnt know who he was messing with. He thought he was trying to take control of a scared little girl. I imagine if it was Robb standing there, that kid wouldn't have tried to grab Robb's wrist, would he? No, he would understand that trying to grab Robb would put himself in great danger. Why can't Arya make herself strong? Why should she need someone to protect her? Why can't she become the biggest badass on the block?

[pearljamrox2]

The kill list came from an interaction with Yoren, the night's watchman who sneaked her out of King's Landing disguised as a boy recruit for the wall. She was having trouble sleeping and asked him how he got all the bad things he's seen out of his head. He told the story about how his brother was killed when he was a boy. He remember the guys face, and said his name every night before he went to bed. It got to the point that he couldnt even remember his brothers face, but he remembered the face of the guy that killed him. One day he saw the guy again, and he killed him. He had to give up everything he had his family, and flee to the wall. It ruined his life basically. I think Arya misunderstood the point Yoren was trying to make, but that's when she started her list.
I think there were probably times, like when she was sleeping in the rain and mud at Harrenhal, watching random prisoners being tortured and murdered everyday, that her list probably kept her going, giving her mind a way to focus on surviving.

[patches70]

Why can't Arya make herself strong? Why should she need someone to protect her? Why can't she become the biggest badass on the block?

Oh you'll be loving Arya's storyline, then. I don't know if she's going to become the biggest badass on the block, but it won't be from lack of trying, that's for sure!

The clues have already been given on the show as to what's going to become of Arya. It's gonna be a fun ride for the viewer as she finds her place in the world.

[Gillipig]

Why can't Arya make herself strong? Why should she need someone to protect her? Why can't she become the biggest badass on the block?

Oh you'll be loving Arya's storyline, then. I don't know if she's going to become the biggest badass on the block, but it won't be from lack of trying, that's for sure!

The clues have already been given on the show as to what's going to become of Arya. It's gonna be a fun ride for the viewer as she finds her place in the world.

Her transformation is hardly a sign of strength but rather a sign of how incredibly weak she has become. (talking about the book now) She's pretty far from mentally strong which is the only true form of strength I think.
Pearl should read the books if he's into the story and wants to know more details of what happens and has happened to her and other characters. It's a good book series and I doubt you'd consider it a waste of time.

[denominator]

Believe me, I have put a lot of thought into Arya. I am afraid of her dying(not anytime soon), but I am also hopeful that she doesn't go "too far". Yes, it is shocking to see any child kill someone(or even root for them to). I don't know the storyline in the future (although I have a lot of clues).
She always wanted to be like her brothers..training to fight instead of doing all the girly things. She even named her Direwolf after a female warrior, Nymeria. That's what she always wanted to be. Ironically, all of the terrible things that happened to her family, that's probably the only way she was going to actually become one.
Why don't people think that Robb was "dark"? How many people did Robb kill? Is it because he is older, and a male, that it is ok for him to kill people? Is it because he was a leader of an army? When Arya and the Hound went to the inn, and met up with Polliver. All I read anywhere was how dark Arya was getting? Forget all the things that made it vengeful for Arya. Those guys were robbing the innkeeper. They were going to rape his daughter. Polliver made an offer to the Hound to trade Arya for some chicken so they could do the same to her. And they had been doing this all over the countryside, and planned on doing it some more. Who in the whole kingdom is doing anything about that? NOBODY. I'd watch a whole show of just her and the Hound riding across the country dispatching all people like that. The show has always portrayed Arya as having the "stark" sense of right or wrong. Yes, she is hot headed and flies off the handle a lot, but she has always been in the right.
Rewatch the scene I posted in my last post. The slaughter didnt happen the day before or something. It was still going on at that moment. There are dead bodies all around on the ground in this scene. The kid called her wolf-girl (he knew exactly who she was). She offered a reward to let her go, and he said he'd get a reward, from the queen (thats a threat), and then he tried to take control of her (grabbed her wrist). She was already going for needle before he got there, as he grabbed her, she was trying to say, Stay Away..but it just happened. She had every reason to fear for her life. I guess the kid didnt know who he was messing with. He thought he was trying to take control of a scared little girl. I imagine if it was Robb standing there, that kid wouldn't have tried to grab Robb's wrist, would he? No, he would understand that trying to grab Robb would put himself in great danger. Why can't Arya make herself strong? Why should she need someone to protect her? Why can't she become the biggest badass on the block?

You're still missing my point.

I am not claiming that Arya's actions are in question. I think she's done well with what she's been given and her post-Balor's character has stayed true to her pre-Balor's character, just with darker themes and less protection.

It's the motivations that put the various people on her kill list that bother me. She takes every little slight thrown at her (case in point - the addition of Beric Dondarrion and Mellisandre to her show list) and plots revenge. She doesn't bother to think of the other person's motivations or reasons for their actions, nor does she consider that by the standards she has laid she qualifies for her own list.

This is why I really enjoyed the book storyline between Arya and The Hound (and thus far am also enjoying it in the show), because it finally started to show Arya thinking outside of her immediate self. She's finally starting to see a bigger picture and the motivations of someone else (in the books at least, Arya is always frustrated at Gendry and Hot Pie for not immediately and completely agreeing with her).

My contention with Arya is not her actions, it's her self-centred attitude. That is why she frustrates and bores me.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Been around children much?

-TG

[betiko]

Been around children much?

-TG

Exactly. You are analysing Arya as an adult. Of course her thought process is flawed. What are parents and bigger brothers for? Well she s been dealing with tons of shit and no family to put her mind back on the correct rail track.
If she goes to the vale and meet sansa, i doubt she would care of anything she says though. What she needs is to see Jon. He ll know how to talk to her.
By the way, bran and arya are very close in age, but it looks like they weren t very close.... Bran before his accident was a poor archer but loved to climb around walls and such. He seemed to have a personality matching well with his sister, it s strange because from what we ve seen in the show jon and robb were the only 2 she was close with?

[strike wolf]

Jon was the only one she was really close to (even though everyone in the show looks more Stark than Tully except Sansa, Arya and Jon were the only two in the books who really look like Starks.) They were close enough that if Arya was given irrefutable evidence that Sansa was in the Vale and that there was no way to get to The Wall, she would still want to go to the Wall first.

[pearljamrox2]

The problem I think we are having here, denominator, is that, you want to talk about book Arya. I am not talking about book Arya. This whole thread is about the TV show, not about the book. The show is based on the book, and I'm sure you know future plot lines that will mostly hold true on the show. But it is not the same thing. I'm just speaking in general here, but most book readers think they have the absolute truth about the show, because they know the book. They are different, quite different at times.
What color are Daenarys' eyes? I'm telling you, I have watched all 35 episodes, atleast 5 times apiece. I know every character, every conversation has been heard and understood. I've analyzed every look on every actors face. There is not a single thing about the show that is lost on me. I'm not some casual fan who didn't realize 4 episodes ago, that Locke(the guy who cut off Jaime Lannisters hand) was sent to capture Bran(how ironic, the guy was killed by the boy Jaime Lannister tried to kill in the first episode). So, again...you can argue with me until YOUR eyes turn purple, but Daenarys does not have purple eyes. If she does, please point me to the episode where they portray that. You can argue with me until your nose falls off, but Tyrion did not have his nose cut off at the Blackwater. Please, tell how sad you felt when lady Talisa was stabbed in the belly at the red wedding in the book. Oh wait...she didnt exist. So please, if you could direct me to the EPISODE on the show, where they portray whatever it is you are trying to tell me about the show. Educate me..what did I miss?
I'm sure we can agree the show and the books are not quite the same. You have preconceived notions about the show..because of the book, but it all doesn't hold true. But, to respond directly to your beef. I am glad no one is privy to my inner monologue. I hide my frustrations with people very well, but it is still there. Most people think I am always happy and nice and laid back, but it's not like that at all. I have conceded that Arya is quick tempered and impulsive. We all have a temper, which means that we all have to control our tempers. Which means that we all have selfish thoughts, we all become frustrated with people and have to learn how to deal with people, sometimes despite our emotions. But anyways, you are entitled to your opinion, and you can hate her or think she is a bore or whatever if you want. I have a feeling, by the time she is truly capable, most of the people on her hit list will already be dead anyway, unfortunately. I too, hope anyone she kills deserves it, and it isn't just someone she is mad at. But what I want most, is to see her avenge the Starks, to help their house rise again. Her enemies have, and are still making her. What she brings down on them will be their own making.
Who is your favorite character. Let's have a long chat about them, and their motivations and their actions. Let's see if we aren't holding Arya to a much higher standard than pretty much everyone else in the story who is killing, raping, whoring, backstabbing, fucking their sister or whatever the case may be.

[strike wolf]

Honestly, characteristic details like that should be left out. 1. Because Peter Dinklage isn't going to agree to have his nose cut off for a part and CGI would be a waste of money that could be spent better elsewhere. 2. Do you know anyone who has purple eyes in real life? Sure Daenerys could wear colored contacts but she could have also easily said, "contacts bother my eyes. I'd rather not wear them." to which the producers probably responded, "Alright, it's a minor detail, we won't force you on it."

The overall plot to the story line is in reality remarkably similar to the books. The biggest change they made was switching out Jeyne Westerling with Talisa and that played out more or less the same just changed the name, gave us a view of events that happened off page in the books and then had her at the Red Wedding so that they could get rid of the Stark heir who shouldn't exist. The point that I am making is that you aren't entirely wrong but Denominator has a legitimate point. Arya is going down a path of vengeance. It's not a pretty path and every indication is that it is going to get worse. That's not me talking about the books, that's me referring to the show. The way she killed that man a couple episodes back was more than just a little vindictive. She's definitely gotten darker season by season and I was more or less on the same page as Denom is now back at the end of Season 3 (before I read the books) when she more or less mercilessly killed that soldier. Did they deserve it? Sure but it did make me worry just how far would she fall. She doesn't think about others, she hardly even considers what will happen to her half the time. Like what would have happened if the Hound hadn't bailed her out by killing the other soldiers.

Favorite character, that's a tough one. I have to exclude story line. Tyrion has the best wit. Jon now that he is getting over his naivete is starting to become one of the more noble yet balanced characters. Littlefinger is that one I love to hate and Varys is the one I am still trying to figure out.

To the book readers:

Spoiler

How do you think they will introduce the idea that Jon and Arya are also wargs in the show?

[pearljamrox2]

There are many changes to the plot, including the fact that she was Tywin's cup bearer, not Bolton's. I think her time at Harrenhal in the book was probably more traumatizing to her, so..I'm guessing her inner monologue would be different in someways on the show compared to the book, it would have to be. But, back to the show.

You are concerned about how she killed the soldier? Do you mean the one that was bragging about how he helped sow Greywind's head onto Robb's body? Totally justified. I would have done the same.
Or do you mean Polliver. The one who was in the process of robbing and raping, and wanted to rape Arya too. As you know, she killed polliver (in the show) the same way Polliver killed Lommy (what was he 8 years old..ten?), even repeated the words he said to him. I imagine it was her pleasure to end his life. Why would you show mercy to a man like that? What do you think would have become of Arya if the hound had lost that fight?

Again with "she's getting darker" Can you explain this. Is it because she is a girl? Robb beheaded Richard Karstark, against the advice of his council. Was Robb getting darker? Jon killed Quron half-hand, and he recently stuck his blade thru the back of Carl's(Qarl..whatever) head and out of his mouth? Is Jon getting darker? Tyrion killed a tribesman by stabbing him in the face with his shield about 50 times on the way for his trial at the Eyrie, and killed more men in battle at the blackwater, plus it was his plan that used wildfire on thousands of men. Is Tyrion getting darker? Why is it, when Arya makes a kill, something is wrong, but when someone else does it, it's a heroic moment?

And has there been another character in the show so far, who was present when their father was being betrayed and beheaded and powerless to stop it. And then also present when her mother and oldest brother were being slaughtered, and powerless to do anything about it. I don't know about you, but that would make me want to become powerful and do something about it.

[betiko]

I'm not some casual fan who didn't realize 4 episodes ago, that Locke(the guy who cut off Jaime Lannisters hand) was sent to capture Bran(how ironic, the guy was killed by the boy Jaime Lannister tried to kill in the first episode)

hey just because I missed that doesn't mean I'm just a "casual fan". I started this thread to have in depth conversations about the show so I guess that I do care a bit more than casually, and no, I haven't watched every episode 5 times, watched all the episodes 12h after they were aired since season 2 started (watched season 1 just after it finished and after afriend recommended it, but I'm not living in the US so that's my excuse! ).
Anyway, i think that i'm probably not the only one to have forgotten what locke looked like. Did Bolton tell him to infiltrate the night's watch? I just remember Bolton telling him to go fin the starks kids and to kill them. Locke is just presented as some random new guy that will have a role in the next episodes among the night's watch, there is no small scene to remember the audience that he's Bolton's bitch. And no, I don't remember all minor character's faces I saw a year or 2 ago.
Like if ser dentos came back and they didn't show him in the preview remimebering us the scene where sansa spared his life, no way I would ve remembered him.

Anyway, regarding the conversation about Arya. Who cares? i like her the way she is, no need for justification. They all have a darker side, even if some have a very dark one.

Personally, my 3 favorites at this point are Tyrion, Arya and Littlefinger. Tyrion and Arya is no news, and I my apreciation for Littlefinger has been growing these past 2 seasons. Also, reading between the lines I understand that Littlefinger and Arya are still there by the end of book 5, not really sure about Tyrion, so it's safe to like them, GRR Martin won't troll me for the next couple of years!

[pearljamrox2]

Haha Betiko, sorry if I insulted you. But my point is, I recognized Locke immediately the first time when he was there with Bolton. I am not confused about the show, not one bit.

But I do agree with you there, I don't really care if Arya is vengeful. I am vengeful. I love the Starks, they are good people to the core. It's not like they can dial 911 and call the police. This is a different world than ours. In many ways it is the survival of the fittest. It seems like for Arya to survive, she will need to become so strong, that people will fear her name. She can't line up against a huge dude with a huge sword and beat him straight up. Neither can littlefinger. That doesn't mean that you have to be at the mercy of whatever douchebag is running the world. Push came to shove a long time ago. She couldn't do anything about it then, but that doesn't mean she can't do anything about it.

But...that's is what is driving her. Whatever we are all afraid of her doing potentially, she hasn't done anything wrong yet. The wider angle of it shows all the Stark children learning. Arya has had many mentors, or atleast people that may make her a better fighter...Ned, Jon, Syrio, Yoren, the hound, Jaqen h'gar,....Sansa has been spending her time with some of the greatest schemers and manipulators around.....Cersei, Tyrion, Littlefinger....Bran is honing his powers....Jon is becoming not only a more seasoned fighter, but I think there has been enough foreshadowing that it is safe to say, he is also becoming a leader of men. When/if they ever get back together...it should be quite a collection of talent...maybe just what the realm will need at that time. Without all the horrible things that made them grow into who they are becoming..maybe the whole realm would be doomed. Atleast that is my hopeful long view of things.

[pearljamrox2]

I know..I ramble on and on...

But the more I think about it..

When Ned Stark was a young man, his father and brother were killed by the crown. His sister was "taken" by the crowned prince. All Ned did was grab his best friend Baratheon(bastard Targaryans incase some folks didnt know that), his fatherly friend Jon Arryn, his new in-laws the tully's and went on the war path and destroyed the Targaryan dynasty. I'm sure Ned killed more men with his hands than Arya could ever dream of. Nothing vengeful about that..nope not at all. Ned is good and honorable.

Now Arya as a young girl...has her father, brother and mother killed by the crown, and her sister "taken" by the crowned prince. Too bad she doesn't have a whole kingdom of people at her back to make things right. I guess she should just take her medicine like a good little girl, and go away quietly.

I also remember after Ned had has head cut off. Robb was in a rage beating his sword on a tree or something, and Catlyn came to him and he said he wanted to kill them all, and she said..they have your sisters. We have to get them back first, and then yes...we will kill them all. Maybe it is a Stark family trait...being merciless and vengeful.