CYOC: TDT [6/22] Game Over! FREEDOM!!!

[Rodion]

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 3#p3654883 - D2 is an interesting read

[strike wolf]

Also, major fos on strike wolf... there are no RL reasons for betiko's absence as he has been posting in the rest of the forum! That was already mentioned today. When he flips scum, you are next.

Why because I pointed out that his behavior doesn't seem consistent with what I observed him playing as with another anti-town role? I am okay with a betiko lynch. I am just saying that it doesn't fit with the meta for him being scum that I have observed in the past.

Just because you said "or if it's an unfortunate coincidence due to other factors". There are no other factors as evidenced by his posting on other parts of the forum (including PMs to me about unrelated topics).

It's a blanket statement in support of not ruling anything out, including forgetting or losing interest in the game (This was actually more where I was leaning since the behavior didn't seem to fit with any examples I could remember of him being scum). You are making it about one specific thing.

Firstly, I'm going to FOS hotshot for completely misunderstanding the jak case and then making a poor defense on his behalf.

See I like FOS's like this, I am not sure whether you're cluing in or not. But most of the people voting me aren't doing so because they really think I'm mafia, half of them admitted to it as/before they placed their votes down.

At this point you're practically a policy lynch, in my books. I fail to see any reason to not lynch you before the end of the day.

Vote jak111.

Vote 1 after me outing. Not voting because he thinks I'm scum but for a "policy lynch".

Vote Jak.

I feel like I don't even have to explain my vote, but basically he vigged town instead of investigating + targeted someone that was not his biggest scumread (evidenced by how his last vote - other than no-lynch - was not focused at Zibel, but spiesr) + is refusing to cooperate (phrases like I'll do what I want or don't tell me what to do) + killed Zivel to get "reads", yet didn't provide a single read out of Zivel's death so far.

Vote 2, no where in this did he state he believes me to be scum. Just that I screwed up with my night action.

Read between the lines and it's pretty clear that he didn't believe that you would target "someone that was not [your] biggest scum read." if you were a vig. Thus he was calling you out as scum.

So Jak, as I understand it, you're saying that (a) you are a JOAT that used his killpower first chance he got to resolve some petty feud about someone "trying to kill you" during day 1, and that (b) you are town and we are stupid to believe otherwise... while at the same time, the kill that you claimed is the only kill that went through in a 22 player CYOC game. This brings about the assumptions that (a) we likely have more than one way to protect town against the night kills, (b) most of these were successful after a highly unproductive day, and (c) the mafia did not roleblock you which means they have no roleblocker (which is strange in such a big game). You can throw all the wifom you have against that last one, but if I were a mafia roleblocker you'd have been my primary target last night.

I killed a guy in the night I believed to come up as scummy for what we had and my other powers are not as useful without a bit more knowledge from others.

This is just plain wrong. The bold part is the problem. A town-aligned killing PR especially becomes useful with a bit of knowledge; it basically is an investigation that never yields a false result. If you had claimed unlimited kills, I wouldn't have minded as much, but you just gave away your most powerful weapon on a hunch, which is why I painted the second half of that phrase red. We had next to nothing, and now your role has become a lot less useful.

But I must assume you knew all that. This is not your first mafia game, not even close. Even you should realise that this is a no brainer. Vote Jak. I'm going to agree with Anark on this one: you really should climb off that high ivory tower of yours, because chances are we'll burn it down.

I'm all for more discussion and scumhunting while the day lasts, but I very much doubt that my vote will change or that I will remove it at all.

Vote 3, again, no where in it does he say he believes me to be scum.

Again, he's pretty clearly saying between a. mafia would role block you if you were town. b. You have been around to know the flaws in the scenario not to engage in them as town. That he was accusing you of being scum.

I may agree with Edoc'sil that we should hold off on lynching overall but I waited on voting jak before and this is the result. Vote Jak. At this point it's as much policy lynch as anything. If you are town, this isn't the first time you acting in an arrogant manner has unfairly cost a townie their life. Not to mention that you've made it quite clear that anyone who disagrees with you is potentially going to fall into your sights. One shot or not, town cannot afford loose cannons who cost other townies their lives. So I want you lynched not just for this game but as a message to all games where this could happen. You claim Zivel you found Zivel scummy. I disagree. Okay, that's not by itself lynchable. What is lynchable, in my honest opinion, is that, on top of your flawed logic and theories (I don't even care if they are off as much as that you often refuse to acknowledge when they are wrong or unlikely) and OMGus vote on Spiesr, you took the MOST DRASTIC measure on NIGHT 1 to test this. Okay, you don't have an investigation. Do you have a role block? or even any ability that involves a role block as part of the ability? Even waiting around and trying to start a case the next day is preferable to the action you took.

Vote 4, again, a "policy lynch" nothing about thinking me being scum.

Sorry I thought the "Even if you arre town" and my statements day 1 were pretty clear that I do not believe you to be town.

(Vote 5 was Doom, he removed it after realising it was stupid to lynch a guy he believed town, although he admitted that he believed me town)

vote jak and this time I do mean jak. Shooting N1, is a risk, and it didn't pay off.

If anyone should be explaining things, it should be this clock guy. It's not mafia role as Mafia definitely failed last night. So it's either a premature town role or a third party role.

The clock guy, has just screwed mafia over and you want him to come out. Anybody else having a hard time processing that?

Also, jak, you need to breathe. Look at yourself, multiple people are saying you are on a high horse / ivory tower / other metaphor. Now we can make two conclusions from here 1) It's a conspiracy and everyone is out to get you. 2) They are right. No more needs to be said on that matter I believe.

Vote 6, did not mention a thing about finding me scummy.

We had a bad storm and internet was down,,,Time Warner sucks. all I could think of was the clock person, my pony and the day ending early.

Everything that could be said about Jak has been said I think. Its pretty much same crap different game. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. I remember Jaks first game where he introduced himself in this big wordy speech saying his goal was to be considered one of the best mafia players. Listening to him rationalize bad decisions IF he is indeed Town is annoying as hell.

He is a Joat who had a vig ability. Maybe i read wrong but he seemed to say that he had to use it or lose it night one?

Anyway vote Jak

Vote 7, another policy lynch basically. (IB pulled off later to vote the Betiko inactivity wagon).

Jak's new meta sure looks a lot like the play style I've become accustomed to (though, it admittedly took me a while to catch on): multiple OMGUS votes driven by people "tunneling" him and reads based on gut feelings that seem to come from nowhere. I hate policy votes but if anyone were deserving of such a vote, it would be Jak. However, of all the current Mafia candidates, Jak also leads the way with scummy behavior. He could very well be Town but between the "new" meta, the N1 killing of Zivel with little basis, his belief that Rodion should be untouchable, etc., etc., etc., the choice is clear. I'm more than happy to discuss other candidates... but for now, I'll Vote Jak to make sure my vote gets recorded before the day ends.

...

@Sausage... I doubt Jak is the Clock. He probably truly is Ang... I just don't get the feeling that Ang is Town-aligned. It definitely could be an associate of his... but I am guessing the Clock is Town-aligned (since he presumably prevented Mafia actions last night) while I'm guessing Jak is not... so, based on that, I'll assume Jak has nothing to do with the Clock.

Vote 8, first vote to vote me because he believes me to be scummy.

So 8 votes total today, 2 pulled off, only 1 person actually said it's because I was scummy, the rest started chipping in and saying so after 2 people defended me by pointing it out. I went back and quoted each vote (besides Doom's but he knows what I say to be true).

So major FOS on everyone who were FOS'ing HotShot and kgb I believe the two were after they started pointing out what was wrong with the entire wagon.

I don't even think that FOS needs an explanation, I'm voting one of them.

Another quick count, how many are voting me because they want an easy lynch and how many are voting me for a bogus reason (besides MP who actually states that he finds me scummy before being pointed out on the poor wagon reasons).

Finally, no one even lifts a word whether they think my case on Nebuch is good enough for some pressure or not. They say they want another case and a claim, I point out someone's poor reasoning for FOS'ing people, no one says a word about the case.

FP'd by a few.

Votes 1 and 6 are the ones you have most weight on, vote 7 is iffy. 2 and 3 are ones that were especially clear that they found you scummy. Me. I find you scummy for reasons dating back to day 1 (I just also happen to be tired of your play if you are town) and this post where you clearly seem to be ignoring the scum implications stated by Aage and Rodion only reinforce that. You may be self-convinced of your own superiority but I don't believe you are stupid enough not to be able to read between the lines on them implying that you were scum. Best case scenario, you are scum and we lynch scum. Worst case scenario, you are a distraction from real cases. I see little downside.

[jak111]

I am not the distraction you're saying I am. I brought up a case to attention and no one is even asking questions about it. Just continuing the narrow minded thinking going on today.

The distraction is people going on and on about me but not attempting to do anything else. I'm the distraction right. If so it's only because people are making it that way and refuse to try to do anything else at all.

[Iron Butterfly]

I am not the distraction you're saying I am. I brought up a case to attention and no one is even asking questions about it. Just continuing the narrow minded thinking going on today.

The distraction is people going on and on about me but not attempting to do anything else. I'm the distraction right. If so it's only because people are making it that way and refuse to try to do anything else at all.

It must suck being right all the time while everyone else is so clueless.

[jak111]

It must suck being right all the time while everyone else is so clueless.

Right now you seem pretty clueless. I don't know about everyone else, but you I'm confident enough to say clueless towards you. You're always up my gears trying to twist my words into something they are not.

Seriously, all these comments claiming me to be up on some high-horse. Take a step back, I am being wagoned on and pointing out scummy things once in a while. Is it on a high-horse to defend myself against accusations?

Or perhaps it's a high-horse to claim I will not bend down for town this game? Gee, that's a really high horse to want a game where I'm actually free to do my actions and scum hunt without being lynched for doing something wrong.

Or perhaps the high-horse claims are coming from their own ego. That one seems much more likely. Thus would they not be already putting themselves on a high horse?

Deadline will come up and no one will bother with my case on Nebuch. I will not say I am correct about everything but here is what I am correct about.

• There are people on my wagon on it only because I'm an easy lynch. (3rd party/mafia).
• Half the wagon is not because they think I'm scum. (Whether they're trying to cover that tad bit up now or later).
• IB is clueless as he states in his post above this. (Obviously I am kidding, take a joke, humour makes you live longer and I don't mean in the game).

[edocsil]

Edoc has been posting ok. It's not like he has a choice not to, with the horse game and all...

I probably would have posted less if it wasn't for IB stealing my horse, you've got me on that regard. That's my horse IB!

What I see today is a betiko or Jak lynch. I will vote betico to insure he is in the rounoff, and for obvious reasons of clear lack of intent to post meaningful content. TBH I see no other cases that will get serious traction, but if you have something to throw into the pot at the last minute here, now is the time.

(maybe a neb case, I don't have strong opinions on it)

[aage]

I hope that suits your taste better, since you apparently want people to explicitly declare they are voting someone due to suspicions of being scum, which should be implied by the very act of voting unless stated otherwise.

This pretty much sums up everything I could possibly say in response to Jak's post. Why would I vote for anyone I do not believe to be scum?
In addition, you're twisting pretty much everyone's words in that post, so there's that.

I am not the distraction you're saying I am. I brought up a case to attention and no one is even asking questions about it. Just continuing the narrow minded thinking going on today.

Okay, let's look at it.

"@Nebuch, your post is actually EXTREMELY scummy. You deny that there are votes on me for just me being "Annoying" so to speak to a few people. Just raise of hands of everyone on my wagon, how many ACTUALLY think I am scum? That will give better reads than guessing which are voting because they dislike me and which are voting because they think they've got scum.

Then I read your post further. Vote Nebuch. You FOS two people for not voting me when it's obvious there's mafia using me as an "easy lynch". I guess everyone who doesn't kill the townie off are mafia yeah? I wish games were that simple I'd catch the scum every game then if we had that kind of scum.

Yeah, I'm looking at Nebuch today, his post is just way too off. I don't think he actually thinks I'm scum. I don't think he ever has. He's actually been one of the few trying to egg it on since the beginning."

Yeah. No. That's just a bunch of OMGUS crap. And this time it literally is OMGUS crap, as in, "Oh my god, you suck!" You're voting Neb because he's oblivious to your obviously being town. You could have posted pretty much the same about everyone on your wagon, especially on me, because at the start of the day I announced that I would not be taking my vote off you. Surely that must be scummy as hell, no matter who FoS'd who. As to that: why focus fire on Neb? I hope I'm not being immodest by saying I have probably been the most zealous in pushing your wagon this entire day, yet you have not even once responded to my posts. Nor to SW's for that matter.

• There are people on my wagon on it only because I'm an easy lynch. (3rd party/mafia).
• Half the wagon is not because they think I'm scum. (Whether they're trying to cover that tad bit up now or later).
• IB is clueless as he states in his post above this. (Obviously I am kidding, take a joke, humour makes you live longer and I don't mean in the game).

1) No doubt. In my experience there is no such thing as an all town bandwagon.
2) Plain wrong.
3) Apparently you wanted three points to your list, and so do I.


Also, by assuming that there are 3 or 4 scum voting you right now, you're assuming mafia really wants you dead and doesn't care that most of them were wagoning on you. You are a gunless, investigationless JOAT that omgus's pretty much everyone in sight (please, don't debate me on the use of omgus again, we've done that). Scum would never risk that. Better to sacrifice one mafia to get town credit on a bunch, than get caught with over half of your team on a very high profile wagon in a non-VT game.

[HotShot53]

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3654883#p3654883 - D2 is an interesting read

After reading that thread (was a pretty interesting discussion, especially after the claim and counterclaim where everyone knew one was lying...), I thought of something. If Jak was a scum JOAT using his kill for scum purposes (as was the case in that game)... wouldn't he have discussed the kill with scum buddies, and been caught without submitting an action when the night ended early, as everyone says happened with the main scum kill? In my mind, that is another reason to think he just acted independently (and stupidly).

[jak111]

aage, what I find interesting is that you think I mean they're all scum. I said 3rd party/scum. It's being nit picky but a game this size there's always more than town and mafia faction (look at virus, he was not town/mafia). In fact I'm willing to place my bet on there being 2-3 scum factions with plenty of 3rd party roles in between.

This is moving away a bit from what you're saying, but since I am going to die anyway today I might as well try to get my thoughts out there before then.

In a 22 player game we know it's not going to be straight up town vs mafia. We have 1 3rd party flip and a town flip.

Of 22 people the minimum for town would be at least 12 so they have majority to start with. The last 10 would be up for debate.

1 3rd party flipped leaves about 9 unknowns so to speak. (Everyone is unknown just bare with my thought train here). I think it would be reasonable to have 2 mafia factions in the game, a 3rd would be stretching it. Both mafia factions with 3-4 people inside them. So that leaves 1 or 3 unknowns left to be 3rd parties.

So in this theory we have 12 town, 3 mafia, 3 secondary mafia and 4 3rd parties. That is reasonable in its self, yes? (Especially in a CYOC game where all town have PR's there might be less than 12 town for all I know, but I think there is 12 to at least start us off with majority vote).

If I die, if this theory is true, it's be 10 town, 3 mafia, 3 secondary mafia and 3 3rd parties left. With town only majority by a single man.

Finally coming back to what aage is saying, if my above theory is true. 1 mafia from each faction and 1-3 3rd parties voting me would be plausible as they do not know each other and only see an easy lynch.

Actually another theory not to explain the votes but just thinking with all the powers and my kill being the only one last night.

22 player game, 12 townies. Now instead of 2 mafia factions 1 mafia faction with 5-6 players in it. That would leave room for an extra 3rd party or two to be added in bringing the total of 12 town, 5-6 mafia and 4-5 3rd party. All town are PR's Mafia probably are all PR's and 3rd parties, not sure what they are just yet.

If either theory is true some possibilities for 3rd parties include:

Fool (If I was this role, I'd have to laugh at End Game at everyone)
Lyncher (If this role was on me, I bet he'd be loving it right now XD just saying!)
Survivor (Very highly likely role to be in a game, with some sort of other power as well)
Cult (In a game this size, I don't see this being a far reach maybe some limitations like no recruiting mafia or some town-immunity but plausible)
Killer (Must of been slower than I lol).

Those are just some roles plausible, I think that horse game player is definitely 3rd party with that clock potentially another one. (Really, when is a clock either good/evil, it's a clock).

Thoughts on those theories? XD

[betiko]

Read all the way till page 24 so. Still 6 pages gap...
Wtf move by jak. His meta is consistent to what i remember from him in the matrix game where he was neo and it gave him this fuzzy feeling of power and domination. 4 actions and you use the kill on night 1 for no reason seriously... Brilliant!

Fp

Tldr for tonight jak

[strike wolf]

Too few townies, too many scum in that theory I would think. I would think about 14-8 maybe leaning 13-9. Especially if there is a cult.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3654883#p3654883 - D2 is an interesting read

After reading that thread (was a pretty interesting discussion, especially after the claim and counterclaim where everyone knew one was lying...), I thought of something. If Jak was a scum JOAT using his kill for scum purposes (as was the case in that game)... wouldn't he have discussed the kill with scum buddies, and been caught without submitting an action when the night ended early, as everyone says happened with the main scum kill? In my mind, that is another reason to think he just acted independently (and stupidly).

Assuming that the clock role isn't mafia, I would grant that but I am not convinced of anything yet. Jak claiming to have used a vig kill when he was actually the mafia kill could make sense in this scenario. The clock provides a decent alibi for why mafia wouldn't have a kill and provides Jak with a provable action to fall on. If mafia knew about a quick deadline than they would be more likely to act quickly on a kill. My leading theory is that the clock acted in self-preservation to make sure he wasn't the horse but it could also have been an act to protect Jak (and in fact the two aren't mutually exclusive though I would say it's unlikely to be both). If this is the case, it actually works as Jak would have no need to explain why there wasn't an extra kill in future nights as it was a one shot action.

[jak111]

No, I think you're right, there probably are 1-3 more townies than what I'm saying, just giving some scenarios that are plausible. Trying to think if this is worst case scenario how bad is it going to be for us.

What I'm mostly thinking about to lead me to the 12 total is we are ALL PR's. If we knew there were VT's I'd be all open to saying there's 14-15 townies. But we all have power(s) so 12 is a possibility (albeit I think it is 13-14).

So if there's 13-14 town (all PR's).

8-9 mafia/3rd party, 5-6 mafia group with 2-3 3rd parties? That could work. I still think multi-mafia is a possibility and if it is, the number of townies probably would be back to about 12 full blown PR's.

[Nebuchadnezer]

Well, it looks like we're heading toward a no lynch again? Or at least a run-off.

Jak continues to exhibit scum traits in his posts. Specifically, he seems desperate and over the top with his defense and counter logic.

Example:

Those are just some roles plausible, I think that horse game player is definitely 3rd party with that clock potentially another one. (Really, when is a clock either good/evil, it's a clock).

Roles were supposedly assigned separate from alignment. Otherwise, your case would be that every inanimate object in the game is 3rd party. In my last CYOC, I was Silent Bob...would you say he was evil or good? In that game I was mafia. I don't picture Silent Bob as evil. Anyway...that was just an example of faulty logic you are using.

With all that said, I do think Jak is town...which is why I can't vote for him. I am choosing to NOT make this a learning moment for him and making a policy lynch. I think he gets that he screwed up and will learn to not wander about shooting people N1.

I guess I could hop on Betiko's train, but I'm sure there are more inactives than just him. I don't think everyone has checked in yet. Hopefully, he puts together something good when he finally catches up. He apparently doesn't seem concerned that the day will end early...

[HotShot53]

Well, it looks like we're heading toward a no lynch again? Or at least a run-off.

Jak continues to exhibit scum traits in his posts. Specifically, he seems desperate and over the top with his defense and counter logic.

Example:

Those are just some roles plausible, I think that horse game player is definitely 3rd party with that clock potentially another one. (Really, when is a clock either good/evil, it's a clock).

Roles were supposedly assigned separate from alignment. Otherwise, your case would be that every inanimate object in the game is 3rd party. In my last CYOC, I was Silent Bob...would you say he was evil or good? In that game I was mafia. I don't picture Silent Bob as evil. Anyway...that was just an example of faulty logic you are using.

With all that said, I do think Jak is town...which is why I can't vote for him. I am choosing to NOT make this a learning moment for him and making a policy lynch. I think he gets that he screwed up and will learn to not wander about shooting people N1.

I guess I could hop on Betiko's train, but I'm sure there are more inactives than just him. I don't think everyone has checked in yet. Hopefully, he puts together something good when he finally catches up. He apparently doesn't seem concerned that the day will end early...

At the moment, I see one extra betico vote since the last vote count, which would make it 5 votes for jak and 4 for betico... so if the day ended early (now), jak would be lynched. I believe the runoff only happens if there is an exact tie for the lead... mod please correct me if I'm wrong

[Iron Butterfly]

Thats my horse Jonty.

[kgb007]

vote betiko for numerous reasons

We're just about out of time now with the majority of the discussion centering around Jak again and I believe him to be town at this point. We haven't gotten any other cases going (part of that is my fault I realize) but the tunnelling on Jak in the last 3 pages is a bit much. Especially considering we only have 3 people really pushing on Jak atm. 20 players left and we're going to let 5 people decide another's fate?

As far as betiko goes, I haven't verified his activity in other threads assuming they're true is damning. I don't care that you're disinterested in the lousy cases of D1. All D1 cases are boring to just about everyone except for people involved starting/defending the case. If you feel that way then start your molehill. It's more fun to come up with your own ideas for pressuring someone than piggybacking on another's case, isn't it?

The fact that both D1 and N1 ended prematurely should be another motivator to get caught up as quickly as possible since players have now focused some of their attention on you. After reading up to page 24, we get this:

Read all the way till page 24 so. Still 6 pages gap...
Wtf move by jak. His meta is consistent to what i remember from him in the matrix game where he was neo and it gave him this fuzzy feeling of power and domination. 4 actions and you use the kill on night 1 for no reason seriously... Brilliant!

Fp

Tldr for tonight jak

Surely you can committ to more than 2-3 sentences from the volumes of posts that buried you previously. You didn't have much to say D1 afterall. The issue lies in getting 9 votes to really pressure betiko into claim territory. Jak was kind enough to claim with only 5 votes yesterday, I'm not sure we can expect that going forward. I suspect that if betiko does claim, most people will unvote immediately anyway....

[jonty125]

Jmac that's my horse.

Jak, I might not have explicitly said in my vote you're scummy, but you are. Your N1 actions was poor and your D2 play is at best a distraction to town.

[Jmac1026]

Iron Butterfly, that's my horse.

Not only is Jak acting scummy, but he's being belligerent about it. Not even a "whoops, sorry for hitting town guyz, lol!" Telling town that he won't let us "direct" his actions, as if we're in the habit of playing this game for him. The way he's been acting helps no one except himself, and that's where he's been scummy. Town should help each other, and he's done nothing for anyone.

In my opinion, if you're town then getting you out of the game now will only help us later on down the road. We won't have to deal with a wildcard like you. If you're scum, then we bag a scum. Its a win-win. This "case" on Betiko is nothing but lynch-the-inactive, and probably an excellent opportunity for mafia to draw a number of votes away from jak. I'm not saying I'm against pressuring Betiko, just that I'd put him second behind jak.

[jak111]

Jmac that's my horse.

Jak, I might not have explicitly said in my vote you're scummy, but you are. Your N1 actions was poor and your D2 play is at best a distraction to town.

My D2 play, please explain this fully. Do not bullshit it, explain it out in full detail. Besides me defending myself from votes that have been piling up as the wagon grew. Or am I not allowed to defend myself Jonty? Just sit back and let them lynch a townie with only protection actions left?

This is what I don't get, I have nothing to defend against just "Your play is scummy" "You're a win-win lynch" "You're a distraction to town". How do I defend against those statements when NOTHING IS ASKED. Just "Scummy" "win-win if you die" "Distraction". Right. Do push more, it will make you look SUPER town to have no real reason in voting me. (That goes to the majority of the wagon, there are only a few who have stated their reason with something tangible).

Read all the votes, you're all biased to your own vote, but read everyone else's votes and their "reasons" or lack there-of.

I think you'll find just how little sense the votes make and how they're never asking anything that I can reply to directly. Just accusations with nothing to work with. I admit I killed Zivel, but then it's twisted into some ploy by scum. Right, I'd just openly admit to killing a townie if I was scum with nothing really to push for a better town kill today? That seems openly pointless.

Once the Zivel thing is taken away, what accusation even holds water? That I'm a distraction? People making me defend myself causes that. If this clock guy wanted to defend me? I think he'd of bloody waited for Anark to have more votes or No-Lynch not tie me with 2 other things. That I'm not teared up for killing town? I made a mistake, it happens, it's a game, no point in crying every time someone messes up or else people would be swimming in tears.

Really, what accusation holds any water? What accusation even has anything I can say anything towards? It's either I'm "scum" or "horrible townie" pretty hard to defend against that, it's a claim that I'm this or this. What should I say? That they're just being arrogant on their own little high horse talking down to someone because they made a mistake with a kill?

If I could go back and pick who to kill would I change it? No. I wouldn't. Zivel acted pretty damn scummy being dead set on wanting two people dead D1 which were most likely to be townies with the limited information. It wasn't that he was after me, if he was after Rodion, SW, spiesr, HotShot, kgb or anyone like that I would of put a bullet in his head (well burned him, but you know what I mean). Do I regret him flipping town? Yeah, but he could of just as easily flipped 3rd party/mafia. If he did the BW on me right now would consist of a max of 3 people.

[Iron Butterfly]

Thats my horse jmac.

As silly and irresponsible as Jaks play has been he has been a boon for mafia/anti town. Someone makes a statement about his play and he responds with a page of text that rationalizes or justifies his actions. Mafia can sit back and enjoy the entertainment as the deadline draws closer. He is perfect mafia bait. Deadline is tomorrow and besides Jak we have Betiko's lack of interest or whatever it is.

[Jmac1026]

Jonty125 that's my horse.

[Nebuchadnezer]

Jak. Please stop talking. You regurgitate the same argument over and over. It gets old.

And of course you'd change who you kill. You now know he's town...The only reason you wouldn't change it is if you were not town. at least admit that, or I will vote you.

[sheepofdumb]

I'll be traveling for the rest of the week. I shouldn't have any problems playing but time sensitive things are going to suck for me.

[MudPuppy]

If I could go back and pick who to kill would I change it? No. I wouldn't. Zivel acted pretty damn scummy being dead set on wanting two people dead D1 which were most likely to be townies with the limited information.

Are you simply ignoring the hypocrisy of that statement or do you truly not see it?

I admit I killed Zivel, but then it's twisted into some ploy by scum. Right, I'd just openly admit to killing a townie if I was scum with nothing really to push for a better town kill today? That seems openly pointless.

Much of what you've said and done seems pointless. I agree that your claim of killing Zivel is Townish... but that hasn't convinced me you are Town. Outside of your admission, you simply haven't been acting Townish.

[Lootifer]

Just started page 25 and so far I am thinking Jak as town. I won't say what kind of town I think he is (I really don't have time for any more walls of text), but lets just say I share everyone elses frustration.

As such I do get a couple of interesting vibes from the people voting him (he has done something similar iirc, but I have only skimmed pages 25 on). The confirmation bias of my town-Jak read shows an interesting picture (i.e. gives me some reads). But I need to finish the thread and see if my view of jak is still the same before I post them.