Will CC someday just be turned off?

[iAmCaffeine]

yes. create one site wide tourney that 90% of players participate in. that is going to fix the site.

[SoN!c]

We do know 1 thing, this site ain't making anybody a $ Millionaire.

The way forward is increasing the participation levels of the players that are still here. That means that CC should be placing efforts into incresing participation levels in area's where New Players can join and instantly feel a part of.

You might not belieive this, but I am going to be blunt here Keefie :

- Clans - Nope, playing on Specialist Maps using Specialist settings ain't going to get any NEW PLAYER hooked.
- Tribes - That actually has a chance if the game content is limited to Maps and Settings that NEW PLAYERS can pick up and play. If it goes the way of Clan games, it will suck to.
- CC Tourneys - Soul-less CC Tourneys also Suck. Playing in a Tourney where you don't care if u win or lose is pretty boring.
- Player Led Tourneys - Are the way forwards. But only if each has a CLEAR SCOREBOARD as a minimum and some way to engage the Player. Commentary / Game Chat / Prizes / Active Tourney Forum / Highlights........SOMETHING!
- 1 SITE WIDE TOURNEY - Where 90% of Active Players play it is 100% what is required. Because from that, you would drive additional participation into every other area of CC. (Clans, Tribes, Player Tourneys). There would need to be a hook to get 90% people to play. And this is radical. Ranking Points, you gain Ranking Points if you win games/meet objectives in it. But crucially, every entrant loses ZERO Ranking Points if they lose in it. That brings in so many more players to the Party. NEW MEMBERS are automatically Entered into it. The TO's personally mail the New Player, welcome them and explain what it's all about. Hand Holding for a week or so.

But, what do I know about entertaining people?

All new players are risk lovers, most play classic as first map. But every new player thinks they can play a game start to finish seconds after creating it. Then they drop the game if its not filled in 60 seconds and don't come back.

"The TO's personally mail the New Player, welcome them and explain what it's all about. Hand Holding for a week or so."

That's a very good idea, new players could receive an automated mail highlighting the strong points (like the 24 hour turn), and perhaps some time schedules when speedgames willl be played (new players mostly look for a speedgame but because everybody joins at a different time these games don't get filled) - and if the welcoming part goes well, they get hooked and turn into 24 hour players.

Also new players don't care about ranking points, that comes a bit later in the process, but again a good idea that rank (points) will not be affected in - let's say - your first 10 games or so.

After this, Joining BOB superleague would be the ideal next step for new players, they will love it and then, to keep them for years, the next step is joining clans.

So yes, Craig has good points

[Nut Shot Scott]

Youre all idiots. Especially anyone who thinks Craig has made any good points regarding how to actually make CC a growing, functional and profitable business.

[SoN!c]

Youre all idiots. Especially anyone who thinks Craig has made any good points regarding how to actually make CC a growing, functional and profitable business.

That is why people call you Nut Bag

You need more subscriptions, so the more new players stay, the more new subscriptions.. people die every day nut bag.

You are a great player but also you can't stand losing so you go berserk when you do.

If you know better then let's hear your proposal to thrive the site again.

[Ark_Angel_NZ]

Was bored at work on this Friday afternoon so I wandered back to the ever-dwindling CC scene. This thread got me thinking...how much is BigWham actually taking home as the owner every year? Let's crunch some numbers (I am a big math guy after all ) that are probably totally wrong but I really don't feel like working. Please do tear my numbers apart. I'm curious what people think.

Ok, so if I look at the scoreboard, I see 4,537 active users. Let's say half of those are premium (which is probably overstated but let's be generous).
4,537 * 0.5 = ~2,250

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).
2,250 * 31 = $69,750

Now there's probably 100 or so members who are very involved and earn lots of credits or get free premium perks (KA?) or something like that, so let's shave off that number to $65,000, which is probably closer to realistic. I don't think CC has any other revenue streams...there is no advertising, no other buy-in options on the site, etc.

What are his expenses? I have no idea what the cost of running a website is, but when I look online I see "software or web hosting renewal" which can range from $5 to $99 a month. Let's say $50 a month. And I see "domain SSL recertification" which is nominal...like $10 annually (let's ignore that). I don't think any of the mods are paid; my understanding is they are volunteers. Maybe his right-hand man or two gets a little paycheck but let's ignore salaries too. So $50 a month = $600 a year. Let's say his expenses in total are $1,000 because I'm probably missing some small items.

So I get a bottom line net income of $64,000 for 2023. Maybe it's only $30,000, maybe it's as high as $80,000, but somewhere in that range. I don't think he's reinvesting any of that income into the site at this point for meaningful improvements. My guess is BW is just taking his yearly distribution of $50k or so every year and waiting until he recoups his investment.

I too have wondered about the profitability of Conquer Club, I appreciate your effort in taking an educated guess on it.

Whilst I have no problem with your assumptions on revenue, I think perhaps you are underestimating the costs associated with running a website. I think the administrative costs are certainly going to be part of it, but the amount of data that is stored somewhere (past games, logs, chat, snapshots) must be vast. It's hard to know how much this data storage does cost, because how it is stored will influence the total cost tremendously, but my assumption is that this would be in the thousands annually.

One thing is for sure, currently in this format of subscriptions and costs it is beneficial financially for Conquer Club to exist to the owner. I am grateful for that, I am sure many others are also.

[SoN!c]

Yes, but where lies the break even?

Probably need a pro subscription of an image storage site for the maps and a pro account on random.org too for the dice generator, next to the ones you mentioned.

Then technical support.. 1 or 2 employees? There goes your 60.000 a year unless its in India.

The minute the site costs more than it brings its end of story

[BaldAdonis]

You are a great player

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).

I haven't got the figures but I do know that statement is absolute poop. The cost of annual premium hasn't risen in years, it's NEVER been as low as $10.

You can find every payment you have made under Personal Menu --> Referral Program --> Account. In 2007, annual premium was $20. In 2008, it went up to $25.

[SoN!c]

You are a great player

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).

I haven't got the figures but I do know that statement is absolute poop. The cost of annual premium hasn't risen in years, it's NEVER been as low as $10.

You can find every payment you have made under Personal Menu --> Referral Program --> Account. In 2007, annual premium was $20. In 2008, it went up to $25.

That was to Nut Bag and yes, i respect him. He knows his maps and yes i think he is a great player. But also he goes berserk way too fast and he is a sore loser too.. still nothing to comment on his gameplay, top notch stuff on any map. Way better than Caff the decaf felcher and a lot of others. Awols finest with Trafa on gameplay. Disaster on good sportmanship (unlike trafa, t-law is an ace monster any way you look at him)

[Dukasaur]

Was bored at work on this Friday afternoon so I wandered back to the ever-dwindling CC scene. This thread got me thinking...how much is BigWham actually taking home as the owner every year? Let's crunch some numbers (I am a big math guy after all ) that are probably totally wrong but I really don't feel like working. Please do tear my numbers apart. I'm curious what people think.

Ok, so if I look at the scoreboard, I see 4,537 active users. Let's say half of those are premium (which is probably overstated but let's be generous).
4,537 * 0.5 = ~2,250

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).
2,250 * 31 = $69,750

Now there's probably 100 or so members who are very involved and earn lots of credits or get free premium perks (KA?) or something like that, so let's shave off that number to $65,000, which is probably closer to realistic. I don't think CC has any other revenue streams...there is no advertising, no other buy-in options on the site, etc.

What are his expenses? I have no idea what the cost of running a website is, but when I look online I see "software or web hosting renewal" which can range from $5 to $99 a month. Let's say $50 a month. And I see "domain SSL recertification" which is nominal...like $10 annually (let's ignore that). I don't think any of the mods are paid; my understanding is they are volunteers. Maybe his right-hand man or two gets a little paycheck but let's ignore salaries too. So $50 a month = $600 a year. Let's say his expenses in total are $1,000 because I'm probably missing some small items.

So I get a bottom line net income of $64,000 for 2023. Maybe it's only $30,000, maybe it's as high as $80,000, but somewhere in that range. I don't think he's reinvesting any of that income into the site at this point for meaningful improvements. My guess is BW is just taking his yearly distribution of $50k or so every year and waiting until he recoups his investment.

I too have wondered about the profitability of Conquer Club, I appreciate your effort in taking an educated guess on it.

Whilst I have no problem with your assumptions on revenue, I think perhaps you are underestimating the costs associated with running a website. I think the administrative costs are certainly going to be part of it, but the amount of data that is stored somewhere (past games, logs, chat, snapshots) must be vast. It's hard to know how much this data storage does cost, because how it is stored will influence the total cost tremendously, but my assumption is that this would be in the thousands annually.

One thing is for sure, currently in this format of subscriptions and costs it is beneficial financially for Conquer Club to exist to the owner. I am grateful for that, I am sure many others are also.

Yeah, I think he's significantly underestimating the costs. I suspect the complexity of the software is greater than most people assume, and your "$99/month" hosting won't cut it.

But other than that:

• Credit card costs. For a small business, the banks rake off minimum 3%, often more.
• Taxes. It is a legally-registered business. Small, maybe, but too big to fly under the radar.
• Don't forget we do have one paid staff -- KA. No idea what his salary is, a lot less than he's worth, for sure. But still something.

About five or seven years ago when I was still CC-obsessed, I did a detailed calculation with as much data as I could gather, and back then I estimated BW's take as around $60,000. That was five or seven years ago. It can only have gone down since then, since membership is about half of what it was then. I imagine it's seriously into hobby horse territory now.

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).

I haven't got the figures but I do know that statement is absolute poop. The cost of annual premium hasn't risen in years, it's NEVER been as low as $10.

You can find every payment you have made under Personal Menu --> Referral Program --> Account. In 2007, annual premium was $20. In 2008, it went up to $25.

Yes. I was going to say it started at $20 in 2006. But I didn't know the Account showed the data. I was going to link lack's original announcement:
https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... =380#p2330

[BaldAdonis]

That was to Nut Bag

I know. The game logs are public, and the plays are not good. He's lucky to have a decade of point inflation.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Want to retain players? Easy. Give all newcomers 1 week premium. Most people end up finding the site cause they like risk and want to play online. Usually 1 speed game at least. So 1 week they will be able to see what the site has to offer without waiting 24hrs just 4 games. I am sure more people would then buy premium than just dont finish first games.

Pd: I do think Craig comments are ridiculous. Why take all strat away from a a strat game and leave it all to luck 1v1, flat rate, small map? But he still thinks it requires skill. Lol

[iAmCaffeine]

people join expecting quick games. not 24hr. give them the premium yes. have ways to unlock more speed games / premium. have the default game they play be a speed 1v1 on classic with a guide. not a 24hr.

idk. some very successful business people have tried to present ideas to KA and bW. they get ignored or shot down.

[Craig25]

The proof is against you Bro!

Look at the Super League, "1v1, flat rate, small map? " Allows the best players to Rise to the Top, many of them winning 4, 5, 6, or even 7 Leagues in a row to do so.

So Skill shows over a Seasons worth of games, not as much in individual games. And over Hundreds, Thousands, and HUNDREDS of THOUDSANDS of Games it definitely shows.

What's more enjoyable and succesful? 1 Seasons worth of Super League Games possibly generate more games than the total number of Clan games in the entire CC history. Not blowing my own trumpet, it is just FACT!

And the beauty is, any player of any standard can join and have as much fun as everyone else.

Other parts of the site are not as fun as that: Clans, Playing Point Harvesters, etc.

Reason for No point loss suggestion in main SITE WIDE Tourney, was to get NEW PLAYERS and POINT HARVESTERS to join while risking nothing. With a set number of games, it provides all players with the same chance to increase their Ranking. So is also fair.

Want to retain players? Easy. Give all newcomers 1 week premium. Most people end up finding the site cause they like risk and want to play online. Usually 1 speed game at least. So 1 week they will be able to see what the site has to offer without waiting 24hrs just 4 games. I am sure more people would then buy premium than just dont finish first games.

Pd: I do think Craig comments are ridiculous. Why take all strat away from a a strat game and leave it all to luck 1v1, flat rate, small map? But he still thinks it requires skill. Lol

[Craig25]

I will add, that the Week's Premium would help. But only in conjunction with the other improvements I have suggested taking place 1st.

Get that sorted and it's something worth paying the Premium for at the end of the week.

Downside of the free week, is it may stop some players renewing. They may just decide to set up a New Account anytime they want a Week of Free Speed Risk!

[ljex]

Want to retain players? Easy. Give all newcomers 1 week premium. Most people end up finding the site cause they like risk and want to play online. Usually 1 speed game at least. So 1 week they will be able to see what the site has to offer without waiting 24hrs just 4 games. I am sure more people would then buy premium than just dont finish first games.

Pd: I do think Craig comments are ridiculous. Why take all strat away from a a strat game and leave it all to luck 1v1, flat rate, small map? But he still thinks it requires skill. Lol

I think you are on the right path but would suggest it be done slightly differently.

Give all freemiums access to x speed games per day (I would say 2-3). Quite frankly as is speed games are not a huge premium perk because they don't really start up all that often unless they are on specific settings/maps because not a ton of premium players play them (this IMO is a win win in both keeping people around and making premiums have a true premium product). Then I think you need to figure out a way to get those folks converted over to 24 hour games but that could be something like 2-3 speed games + 1 per active 24 hour game where you have not missed a turn (or something like that).

Also IMO there should be multiple tiers of premium for different rates.
Free - You get adds limited to # of speed games and # of 24 hour games (maybe require 1 of 4 slots be open if you want to play a speed game or something like that)
$10 - No adds and you are limited at six 24 hour games or something like that
$31 - No limits as it currently is

I think there is likely some space to collect more revenue from people who want a bit more but like that they are capped in the # of games so this stays a hobby and doesn't become something they are too invested in.

[Dukasaur]

There's no chance of giving free premium, even on a short-term basis. The site has no identity verification, it would be super easy for someone to play on a premium level forever, simply creating new accounts every time the free premium expired.

We chase multis, of course, but it's volunteer work and not very reliable so lots of multis get through, and that's without any real incentive. Given a strong incentive like a week of free premium and the flow of multis would be an unstoppable deluge.

Installing some serious identity verification software would be expensive and would tend to scare away a lot of people too.

My proposal for introducing freemies to speed games is to have a Happy Hour (actually 16 hours) from noon Friday to 0400 Saturday morning. Friday night is our weakest night and could do with a boost. I drag out the definition to 16 hours so that every time zone on earth has a crack at it either Friday night or in the case of our Far Eastern members on Saturday morning.

[Craig25]

This sounds like a great idea.

1st: I agree, it ends completely a FREE week of Premium for NEW PLAYERS. It is just a non-runner from a Business Sense.

2nd: AFTER other improvements have been made to the site, this could be a step in the right direction.

C

There's no chance of giving free premium, even on a short-term basis. The site has no identity verification, it would be super easy for someone to play on a premium level forever, simply creating new accounts every time the free premium expired.

We chase multis, of course, but it's volunteer work and not very reliable so lots of multis get through, and that's without any real incentive. Given a strong incentive like a week of free premium and the flow of multis would be an unstoppable deluge.

Installing some serious identity verification software would be expensive and would tend to scare away a lot of people too.

My proposal for introducing freemies to speed games is to have a Happy Hour (actually 16 hours) from noon Friday to 0400 Saturday morning. Friday night is our weakest night and could do with a boost. I drag out the definition to 16 hours so that every time zone on earth has a crack at it either Friday night or in the case of our Far Eastern members on Saturday morning.

[fusibaseball]

Was bored at work on this Friday afternoon so I wandered back to the ever-dwindling CC scene. This thread got me thinking...how much is BigWham actually taking home as the owner every year? Let's crunch some numbers (I am a big math guy after all ) that are probably totally wrong but I really don't feel like working. Please do tear my numbers apart. I'm curious what people think.

Ok, so if I look at the scoreboard, I see 4,537 active users. Let's say half of those are premium (which is probably overstated but let's be generous).
4,537 * 0.5 = ~2,250

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).
2,250 * 31 = $69,750

Now there's probably 100 or so members who are very involved and earn lots of credits or get free premium perks (KA?) or something like that, so let's shave off that number to $65,000, which is probably closer to realistic. I don't think CC has any other revenue streams...there is no advertising, no other buy-in options on the site, etc.

What are his expenses? I have no idea what the cost of running a website is, but when I look online I see "software or web hosting renewal" which can range from $5 to $99 a month. Let's say $50 a month. And I see "domain SSL recertification" which is nominal...like $10 annually (let's ignore that). I don't think any of the mods are paid; my understanding is they are volunteers. Maybe his right-hand man or two gets a little paycheck but let's ignore salaries too. So $50 a month = $600 a year. Let's say his expenses in total are $1,000 because I'm probably missing some small items.

So I get a bottom line net income of $64,000 for 2023. Maybe it's only $30,000, maybe it's as high as $80,000, but somewhere in that range. I don't think he's reinvesting any of that income into the site at this point for meaningful improvements. My guess is BW is just taking his yearly distribution of $50k or so every year and waiting until he recoups his investment.

I too have wondered about the profitability of Conquer Club, I appreciate your effort in taking an educated guess on it.

Whilst I have no problem with your assumptions on revenue, I think perhaps you are underestimating the costs associated with running a website. I think the administrative costs are certainly going to be part of it, but the amount of data that is stored somewhere (past games, logs, chat, snapshots) must be vast. It's hard to know how much this data storage does cost, because how it is stored will influence the total cost tremendously, but my assumption is that this would be in the thousands annually.

One thing is for sure, currently in this format of subscriptions and costs it is beneficial financially for Conquer Club to exist to the owner. I am grateful for that, I am sure many others are also.

True, the expenses likely are understated...and your last point is on the money, Ark.

But other than that:

• Credit card costs. For a small business, the banks rake off minimum 3%, often more.
• Taxes. It is a legally-registered business. Small, maybe, but too big to fly under the radar.
• Don't forget we do have one paid staff -- KA. No idea what his salary is, a lot less than he's worth, for sure. But still something.

About five or seven years ago when I was still CC-obsessed, I did a detailed calculation with as much data as I could gather, and back then I estimated BW's take as around $60,000. That was five or seven years ago. It can only have gone down since then, since membership is about half of what it was then. I imagine it's seriously into hobby horse territory now.

Also interesting points. You are probably closer to right. Maybe he takes only $20-$30k home annually at this point. Very much in hobby territory at that stage.

Annual premium is now a whopping $31 (yikes, this was around $10 when I started a decade or so ago).

I haven't got the figures but I do know that statement is absolute poop. The cost of annual premium hasn't risen in years, it's NEVER been as low as $10.

You can find every payment you have made under Personal Menu --> Referral Program --> Account. In 2007, annual premium was $20. In 2008, it went up to $25.

So it was still $25 when I started? Wow. Funny how we tend to look on the past with unwarranted fondness. Rose colored glasses are real.

[ltiyank]

Please please just turn it off. Slow loading. Membership down. Oh but the realness of the dice that’s the best.

[Shannon Apple]

My proposal for introducing freemies to speed games is to have a Happy Hour (actually 16 hours) from noon Friday to 0400 Saturday morning. Friday night is our weakest night and could do with a boost. I drag out the definition to 16 hours so that every time zone on earth has a crack at it either Friday night or in the case of our Far Eastern members on Saturday morning.

This is actually a great idea. But, having 24-36 hours every fortnight (if worried about giving too much free hours) would benefit more people around the world. 16 hours every week won't hit all timezones. Not everyone would be able to play.

They should make an event out of it and see how it goes down. Maybe winning x number of games gives you a token that you can use to enter tournaments or something.

I'm loving the idea. Might even encourage more premium players to try speeders.

[Dukasaur]

My proposal for introducing freemies to speed games is to have a Happy Hour (actually 16 hours) from noon Friday to 0400 Saturday morning. Friday night is our weakest night and could do with a boost. I drag out the definition to 16 hours so that every time zone on earth has a crack at it either Friday night or in the case of our Far Eastern members on Saturday morning.

This is actually a great idea. But, having 24-36 hours every fortnight (if worried about giving too much free hours) would benefit more people around the world. 16 hours every week won't hit all timezones. Not everyone would be able to play.

They should make an event out of it and see how it goes down. Maybe winning x number of games gives you a token that you can use to enter tournaments or something.

I'm loving the idea. Might even encourage more premium players to try speeders.

Thank you!

However, I thought about the time zones carefully. Everyone gets a chance on my schedule.

The Americas, obviously.

For Europe and Africa: Noon CC time is 5 pm Greenwich, 6 pm in Continental Europe (most of the EU), 7 pm in Egypt and South Africa, 8 pm in Moscow and the Middle East. Everyone in Europe and Africa would benefit at least for part of the schedule. They might have to go to bed before us, but they would get at least a few hours of play time in.

For the Far East: midnight CC time is 1 pm in China, Indonesia, and Western Australia, 2 pm in Tokyo, 4 pm in Melbourne, 6 pm in New Zealand. So our Far Eastern members could definitely participate, although it would be Saturday afternoon for them, not Friday night.

[ConfederateSS]

---------How about the third weekend of every month???...Freemium weekend...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
---------- Although I stopped playing speed games.... People are trying to win a million games a second....Ooh...you can take turns ,turns in a millisecond... you're so Kool...I had fun when it was just 5 minutes a turn... Ironically Saturdays/Sundays...I would spend 2 or 3 hours on 2 games...Talk with people..etc..(By the time you look at chat type,your turns almost over)..get rid of 1,2,3,4 minutes....Or...offer...10 ,15 minutes...I liked the play of , feeling like you were at your dinning room table playing with friends in real life....No one just takes 5 minutes.... Someone's eating,using the bathroom,trash talking....etc...
-------- They changed the freestyle rules(not that I play freestyle either) , making speed twice unfun...I stay away....... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ....Funny thing is, I got premium to play speed the 1st time, not for as many games you can play...But since then, the tables turned, I get premium for unlimited games... Especially for Wars of Attrition ...Wear the warriors down......

[Craig25]

Nut Bag has issues M8. We all just need to show him a little pity.

Saying that, muting his account on CC would probably help retention numbers. The phrase 'Bit of a Dick' springs to mind, but, he is just a harmless wee soul with a chip on his shoulder.

Youre all idiots. Especially anyone who thinks Craig has made any good points regarding how to actually make CC a growing, functional and profitable business.

That is why people call you Nut Bag

You need more subscriptions, so the more new players stay, the more new subscriptions.. people die every day nut bag.

You are a great player but also you can't stand losing so you go berserk when you do.

If you know better then let's hear your proposal to thrive the site again.

[Ltrain]

-People are trying to win a million games a second....Ooh...you can take turns ,turns in a millisecond... you're so Kool...I had fun when it was just 5 minutes a turn...[/size]...

I hear ya... I'm pretty sure I lose more points in speed land than I gain tho. Speed land is for the junkies, count me in.

[Nucker]

It is pity CC has fallen.

In desparate need of a tech upgrade and a whole lot of feature and map implementations. A decent dice algorithm plus plus.

Wham and his team have not shown enthusiasm in the 10years I have been here. More antagonism than customer management.

No development at all in the past 10 years. The occasional person who joins enthusiastic to make a difference and leaves broken spirited a few years later.

I belive CC was once vibrant. It is not an issue of an aging clientele as strategy will always be popular and risk has the potential to very strategic at a multi-player level.

There is still something that is savable in CC. The maps, the customer base that can be revised. And it's core players.

I do not know what happened in BW's life but he should sell CC to someone with vision while there is still something to sell.