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Are "the angels" metaphors for DM and AAF?mpjh wrote:I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.
Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.
Oh really? Then perhaps you should research the percentage of a poor population's belief in God, with a more affluent one. Across the board, the more suffering, the less educated, and the tougher the life, the more people believe and more strenuously the people believe in God. Unfortunately, in some places, its all they have. Its simply ridiculous to suggest that a poor country, with people starving is rebelling against the system, and thinking about the different arguments for God or against. They are praying every day, in hopes that their children survive, and while I have no doubt they question the existence of God, I also suspect, they dont give it too much thought, because for many unfortunately, all they have to be happy, is the promise of a life after this one that is full of joy, because they just lived an entire one in misery.mpjh wrote:Where is your evidence of that. My experience has been that IQ is only a social construct, and that "higher" IQ people are simply closer to the elite of the mainstream and more likely to agree with the prevailing ideology; while lower "IQ" people are more likely the oppressed in that society and more likely to challange the prevailing ideology. So I see quite the opposite of what you claim.john9blue wrote:Interesting... although I'm not that concerned because many great thinkers were religious. There are definitely more impressionable types in the lower IQ range who are less likely to question religious dogma.
Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.mpjh wrote:Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.
You are both wrong. Over 90% of those in the US believe in God. An overwhelming majority describe themselves as "religious" or "spiritual".AAFitz wrote:Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.mpjh wrote:Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.
On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
PLAYER57832 wrote:You are both wrong. Over 90% of those in the US believe in God. An overwhelming majority describe themselves as "religious" or "spiritual".AAFitz wrote:Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.mpjh wrote:Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.
On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.
The numbers are even higher in poorer areas. They may despair at God/gods, but most cannot even conceive of a world without religious belief.
Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.Neoteny wrote:No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.
Here is my source:AAFitz wrote:Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying his error. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.Neoteny wrote:No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.
You are truly religious, and obviously try to live your life according to the beliefs of your religion. I am more referring to those who pretend to believe, and then live their lives completely contradictory to those beliefs. They are no more religious than someone who calls themselves a Star Wars fanatic, who has never seen the movie. Sure, statistically, they might be counted, but that doesnt mean they are actually Star Wars fanatics. Whether they think they are or not is irrelevant.PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is my source:AAFitz wrote:Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying his error. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.Neoteny wrote:No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
The number of atheists and the numbers of people who switch from one church to another is increasing, but American is still overwhelmingly religious.
Do not confuse disdain for church with disdain for religion. If you asked me what church I belong to, my answer would be somewhat complicated. I am a member of one church, but attend it only sometimes, send my kids to Sunday school elsewhere and have them involved in youth programs affiliated with yet another church. However, I am absolutely Christian.
Spread of communism is not necessarily tied to demise of religion. Ironically, I have always found the economic communistic model to be very similar to what Christ preached (take care of one another, give up all and follow me, it is harder for a rich man to get to heavan than to take a camel through the eye of the needle, etc.) I am not saying that we have to be communist to be Christian (far from it!), just that it strikes me as ironic that they are so often labeled polar opposites.mpjh wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:You are both wrong. Over 90% of those in the US believe in God. An overwhelming majority describe themselves as "religious" or "spiritual".AAFitz wrote:Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.mpjh wrote:Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.
On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.
The numbers are even higher in poorer areas. They may despair at God/gods, but most cannot even conceive of a world without religious belief.
Sorry, but all the socialists and communists that are getting elected around the world are in the poorer areas, and their support is among the poorest of those areas. No, religion is not their friend and they know it.
I would say that I try to be religious, do believe and try to follow the precepts. But the truth is that is for everyone.AAFitz wrote: You are truly religious, and obviously try to live your life according to the beliefs of your religion. I am more referring to those who pretend to believe, and then live their lives completely contradictory to those beliefs. They are no more religious than someone who calls themselves a Star Wars fanatic, who has never seen the movie. Sure, statistically, they might be counted, but that doesnt mean they are actually Star Wars fanatics. Whether they think they are or not is irrelevant.
But this thread is about whether people think there's a creator, not how moral they are.AAFitz wrote:You are truly religious, and obviously try to live your life according to the beliefs of your religion. I am more referring to those who pretend to believe, and then live their lives completely contradictory to those beliefs. They are no more religious than someone who calls themselves a Star Wars fanatic, who has never seen the movie. Sure, statistically, they might be counted, but that doesnt mean they are actually Star Wars fanatics. Whether they think they are or not is irrelevant.PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is my source:AAFitz wrote:Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying his error. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.Neoteny wrote:No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
The number of atheists and the numbers of people who switch from one church to another is increasing, but American is still overwhelmingly religious.
Do not confuse disdain for church with disdain for religion. If you asked me what church I belong to, my answer would be somewhat complicated. I am a member of one church, but attend it only sometimes, send my kids to Sunday school elsewhere and have them involved in youth programs affiliated with yet another church. However, I am absolutely Christian.
It is pompous, and I'll tell you why it is so. You are correct in saying that there are people who profess a belief in something, and act in a manner that contradicts that belief. I would even say that is not an exceedingly rare occurrence. But what you are saying is that a vast majority of people in the United States are hypocrites when it comes to their religion. I won't say that there isn't a number who are, but the fact of the matter is that you can give the benefit of the doubt to most people. Would you say that a person who is trying to, oh, I dunno, be nicer to poor people as a facet of their religion, and they pass a homeless person without a glance, even though they have some spare change or something, is not truly religious? Perhaps they feel terrible about it later, and ask for forgiveness. Maybe they know the homeless person is a fraud. The point is, there are many people who act one way, and intend to act the opposite, for whatever reason, be it a failing or whatever. Additionally, there are just simple differences of opinion. Just because one person thinks church attendance should be mandatory, and the other does not does not make either person more or less religious. There are so many ways to interpret a single religious text that it's completely ridiculous.AAFitz wrote:Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.Neoteny wrote:No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.
If you chose that saying you believe, and not acting in accordance with those beliefs, or showing them in nearly any way makes you "religious", and just as much as "religious" as others who clearly devote their lives and actions to those beliefs, than thats fine...
Add me to your stats then: I believe. I guess Im "religious" now...just ignore the fact that my actions will not reflect this in any way whatsoever, and the fact that Im simply making it up.
Ironically, I am more religious than many professed believers, which is where your incorrect assesment of pompous came from. I actually believe in the teachings of the church, the teachings of Jesus himself, and try to live my life guided by those principles as much as I possibly can. It just so happens that I believe in them, because I believe they are a just and admirable way to live a life, not because they came from a supernatural power. It is knowing these principles, and seeing those that pretend to believe in the originator of them, and then ignoring every aspect of them, that allows me to not consider them religious.
Its not pompous...its educated.
Pompous might be someone who, in professing to believe in Jesus, would in his supposed defense, resort to personal quips and character assassinations. It would also be ironic. It would of course not be novel.... Religious people have been using their beliefs in an effort to control others since the dawn of religion itself.
The way I'm seeing this, the people in the "religious parts of the world" merely follow their religions in a manner that you consider to be "religiously." For others, that would be overzealous, and they may still be religious, and hypocritical in the least.AAFitz wrote:Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
Sure:MeDeFe wrote:jesterhawk, can you point me to the part in the bible where the devil's rebellion is described in as great detail as in your post? I've never been able to find it.
To quote from my favorite movie, "In my experience there is no such thing as luck!"MeDeFe wrote:Regarding your illness, I'm glad you recovered from it, but doctors aren't infallible, so yes, you "just" got really really lucky.
The above passages make it clear that God did create the devil but that he was the star of the morning (Isaiah 14:12), an anointed cherub (Ezekiel 28:14), and blameless until he turned to evil (Ezekiel 28:15). Now one could argue that God knew he would turn to evil, but that was not what he was created for it was what he choose. Just like we were not created to murder, rape, steal, etc, but we choose to do those things.jonesthecurl wrote:Did God deliberately make "the Devil" evil?
I am glad that you made it back safely. As for the rest, the war or rift between God and the devil is not over yet.mpjh wrote:I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.
Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.
Plan.. no.jonesthecurl wrote:...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?
So he made a clockwork toy, wound it up, put it down, and it wasn't his fault when it walked off the edge of the table?PLAYER57832 wrote:Plan.. no.jonesthecurl wrote:...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?
Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.