Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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ViperOverLord
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Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

Post by ViperOverLord »

OK, so Somali-born nineteen year-old Mohamed Osman Mohamud tried to bomb people at a Christmas tree ceremony in downtown Portland, Oregon. But it could have easily been an eighty two year old American born caucasian named Wilma Howard trying to bomb a mosque in Fort Wayne, India.

Seriously guys. I know that 'the usual suspect' tried to mass murder but let's be sensitive to all races and creeds and not over react to this. Feelings are much more important than blood.

Source: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/11/teen_false_alarm_bomb.html
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

Post by PLAYER57832 »

NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.


I said let's not profile. I agree with your 'experts.' Profiling based on race or national origin is a waste of time when we all know that anybody and their dog could be a terrorist. When you think about it like that, playing the percentages is just wasteful and worse insensitive!
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

Post by demonfork »

PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.


Yea really! Ones orgin(sic) should never be taken into consideration when profiling, especially when you realize that "experts" are never wrong.

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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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ViperOverLord wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.


I said let's not profile. I agree with your 'experts.' Profiling based on race or national origin is a waste of time when we all know that anybody and their dog could be a terrorist. When you think about it like that, playing the percentages is just wasteful and worse insensitive!

Not everyone is a likely terrorist, but race, general religion and even country of origin are extremely poor predictors. Sadly, though, enough people like you screaming and yelling otherwise will force politicians to put more money on things that really don't matter.

But then, that's what happens when people are taught to ignore science and to feel that all "experts" are just idiots with degrees who don't know as much as "average folk".

demonfork wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.


Yea really! Ones orgin(sic) should never be taken into consideration when profiling, especially when you realize that "experts" are never wrong.
The above applies to you.

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My "box is the universe,". Yours is obviously much smaller, but don't judge the rest of us by that.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.


I said let's not profile. I agree with your 'experts.' Profiling based on race or national origin is a waste of time when we all know that anybody and their dog could be a terrorist. When you think about it like that, playing the percentages is just wasteful and worse insensitive!

Not everyone is a likely terrorist, but race, general religion and even country of origin are extremely poor predictors. Sadly, though, enough people like you screaming and yelling otherwise will force politicians to put more money on things that really don't matter.

But then, that's what happens when people are taught to ignore science and to feel that all "experts" are just idiots with degrees who don't know as much as "average folk".


Even when I agree with you, I'm "screaming" lol. BTW - What are some extremely great predictors of terrorism. Please educate us.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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ViperOverLord wrote: Even when I agree with you, I'm "screaming" lol.
If you were not being sarcastic, then I apologize.
ViperOverLord wrote: BTW - What are some extremely great predictors of terrorism. Please educate us.

I said other predictors are extremely poor, not that any are extremely good. The better predictors are various behaviors, to some extent direct associations (membership in a particular mosque or other orgnaization might be, but simply being Islamic is not.. any more than simply being Christian automatically means you are a KKK racist bomber). As for more specifics, for "some strange reason" they don't like to be too open about them. One factor is a certain kind of nervousness, but anything more specific is pretty much left to those in the business. None of those methods is absolute.

The BEST preventatives are things done before people even get to the airport. And, along those lines, it seems the terrorists have moved beyond putting people on airplanes anyway.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

Post by Timminz »

I'm outraged. I say we ban whatever religion it is you're all so scared of. That'll teach them to be intolerant!
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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Timminz wrote:I'm outraged. I say we ban whatever religion it is you're all so scared of. That'll teach them to be intolerant!

c'mon now, all hallowed zuchini worshippers get enough flack in the summer.. now you want to bring it into winter, too???
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.

The fine people at Ben Gurion International might disagree.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

Post by PLAYER57832 »

GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:NIce try. Too bad the real experts, you know, the guys who spend thier lives and security looking into what really works and doesn't, disagree.

Profiling, yes, but not based on race or national orgin as you wish to insist. THAT kind of profiling is a pure waste of energy and time.. makes us more dangerous, not less.

The fine people at Ben Gurion International might disagree.

No, they are among the experts to whom I referred earlier.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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You don't think they consider national origin?
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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GabonX wrote:You don't think they consider national origin?

Not really, no. And, by-the-way, I am not guessing here. You can listen to interviews with them, commentary they have on our system, just google it.

Here is a fundamental truth. Any time you focus on superficial issues, such as national origin, religion, etc, then your mind focuses on those issues instead of things that really matters. This is basic psycology. Its like when a man in a business suit comes into a room, and later most of the class winds up agreeing that it was a black guy in a hooded sweatshirt with a gun, only the factors involved to influence thinking are a bit different. In fact, the experts need to look very much at other things.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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Looking at things with tunnel vision always grants limited perspective.

^That includes ignoring either the macro or the micro view.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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GabonX wrote:Looking at things with tunnel vision always grants limited perspective.

^That includes ignoring either the macro or the micro view.

In this case, the supposed "macro" view is all humanity. And that is what the real experts know that so many pundits and "average joe 'experts' " do not.

But, since you are not going to enter the secret service, CIA or anything similar, then all we have to worry about is that so many of you folks who seem to know so much more than the real experts have loud enough voices to convince politicians... thus wasting our money AND making us less safe.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Looking at things with tunnel vision always grants limited perspective.

^That includes ignoring either the macro or the micro view.

In this case, the supposed "macro" view is all humanity. And that is what the real experts know that so many pundits and "average joe 'experts' " do not.

But, since you are not going to enter the secret service, CIA or anything similar, then all we have to worry about is that so many of you folks who seem to know so much more than the real experts have loud enough voices to convince politicians... thus wasting our money AND making us less safe.

It's kind of silly to be so sure about any of that...
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Looking at things with tunnel vision always grants limited perspective.

^That includes ignoring either the macro or the micro view.

In this case, the supposed "macro" view is all humanity. And that is what the real experts know that so many pundits and "average joe 'experts' " do not.

But, since you are not going to enter the secret service, CIA or anything similar, then all we have to worry about is that so many of you folks who seem to know so much more than the real experts have loud enough voices to convince politicians... thus wasting our money AND making us less safe.

It's kind of silly to be so sure about any of that...
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote: BTW - What are some extremely great predictors of terrorism. Please educate us.

I said other predictors are extremely poor, not that any are extremely good. The better predictors are various behaviors, to some extent direct associations (membership in a particular mosque or other orgnaization might be, but simply being Islamic is not.. any more than simply being Christian automatically means you are a KKK racist bomber). As for more specifics, for "some strange reason" they don't like to be too open about them. One factor is a certain kind of nervousness, but anything more specific is pretty much left to those in the business. None of those methods is absolute.

The BEST preventatives are things done before people even get to the airport. And, along those lines, it seems the terrorists have moved beyond putting people on airplanes anyway.


So you want profiling by what specific geographic mosque people belong to?
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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ViperOverLord wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote: BTW - What are some extremely great predictors of terrorism. Please educate us.

I said other predictors are extremely poor, not that any are extremely good. The better predictors are various behaviors, to some extent direct associations (membership in a particular mosque or other orgnaization might be, but simply being Islamic is not.. any more than simply being Christian automatically means you are a KKK racist bomber). As for more specifics, for "some strange reason" they don't like to be too open about them. One factor is a certain kind of nervousness, but anything more specific is pretty much left to those in the business. None of those methods is absolute.

The BEST preventatives are things done before people even get to the airport. And, along those lines, it seems the terrorists have moved beyond putting people on airplanes anyway.


So you want profiling by what specific geographic mosque people belong to?

At the airport, behavioral analysis is the only thing that works. But, in advance, associations/contacts and behavior. In advance is, by far, the most effective. Catching folks at the airport is mostly a "last ditch" fall back for people who are not otherwise under investigation.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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Forget the "porn machines": How Israelis Secure Airports
Air travelers in the United States are now given two options at the security gate -- be groin-groped by gloved Transportation Security Administration agents, or photographed "naked" in the back-scatter X-ray device that Jeffrey Goldberg at The Atlantic calls "the porn machine."

You can thank failed "underwear bomber" Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab for this one. While armies tragically tend to fight the last war, the TSA looks for the item the most recent terrorist used.

After 9/11, everything sharp -- even tweezers -- was banned. Ever since Richard Reid tried and failed to light his loafers on fire, security agents have forced us to take off our shoes. British authorities rounded up terrorists who planned to bring liquid explosives on board, and we've all been prohibited from carrying shampoo through the gate ever since.
Security theater: A TSA officer 'organizing' passengers at JFK. By contrast, Israeli airport-security agents screen for dangerous people.
Getty Images
Security theater: A TSA officer "organizing" passengers at JFK. By contrast, Israeli airport-security agents screen for dangerous people.

Terrorists have yet to use the same weapon twice, and the TSA isn't even looking for whatever they'll try to use next. I can think of all sorts of things a person could use to wreak havoc on a plane that aren't banned. Security officials should pay less attention to objects, and more attention to people.

The Israelis do. They are, out of dreadful necessity, the world's foremost experts in counterterrorism. And they couldn't care less about what your grandmother brings on a plane. Instead, officials at Ben Gurion International Airport interview everyone in line before they're even allowed to check in.

And Israeli officials profile. They don't profile racially, but they profile. Israeli Arabs breeze through rather quickly, but thanks to the dozens of dubious-looking stamps in my passport -- almost half are from Lebanon and Iraq -- I get pulled off to the side for more questioning every time. And I'm a white, nominally Christian American.

If they pull you aside, you had better tell them the truth. They'll ask you so many wildly unpredictable questions so quickly, you couldn't possibly invent a fake story and keep it all straight. Don't even try. They're highly trained and experienced, and they catch everyone who tries to pull something over on them.

Because I fit one of their profiles, it takes me 15 or 20 minutes longer to get through the first wave of security than it does for most people. The agents make up for it, though, by escorting me to the front of the line at the metal detector. They don't put anyone into a "porn machine." There's no point. Terrorists can't penetrate that deeply into the airport.

The Israeli experience isn't pleasant, exactly, and there's a lot not to like about it. It can be exasperating for those of us who are interrogated more thoroughly.

The system has its advantages, though, aside from the fact that no one looks or reaches into anyone's pants. Israelis don't use security theater to make passengers feel like they're safe. They use real security measures to ensure that travelers actually are safe. Even when suicide bombers exploded themselves almost daily in Israeli cities, not a single one managed to get through that airport.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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Stop profiling serial killers! It's not fair to the murderers!
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote: BTW - What are some extremely great predictors of terrorism. Please educate us.

I said other predictors are extremely poor, not that any are extremely good. The better predictors are various behaviors, to some extent direct associations (membership in a particular mosque or other orgnaization might be, but simply being Islamic is not.. any more than simply being Christian automatically means you are a KKK racist bomber). As for more specifics, for "some strange reason" they don't like to be too open about them. One factor is a certain kind of nervousness, but anything more specific is pretty much left to those in the business. None of those methods is absolute.

The BEST preventatives are things done before people even get to the airport. And, along those lines, it seems the terrorists have moved beyond putting people on airplanes anyway.


So you want profiling by what specific geographic mosque people belong to?

At the airport, behavioral analysis is the only thing that works. But, in advance, associations/contacts and behavior. In advance is, by far, the most effective. Catching folks at the airport is mostly a "last ditch" fall back for people who are not otherwise under investigation.


So you want to presume guilt based on association?
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

Post by silvanricky »

Yeah, Israel has a better security method and limited profiling might work a little better. My thought though is how can the United States, which has a much larger & diverse population along with multiple international airports, be able to implement it. Israel sort of has the advantage of using the profiling method at least when it comes to screening at airports.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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Ray Rider wrote:And Israeli officials profile. They don't profile racially, but they profile. Israeli Arabs breeze through rather quickly, but thanks to the dozens of dubious-looking stamps in my passport -- almost half are from Lebanon and Iraq -- I get pulled off to the side for more questioning every time. And I'm a white, nominally Christian American. [coloration added for emphasis]

If they pull you aside, you had better tell them the truth. They'll ask you so many wildly unpredictable questions so quickly, you couldn't possibly invent a fake story and keep it all straight. Don't even try. They're highly trained and experienced, and they catch everyone who tries to pull something over on them.
Like I said earlier, behavioral analysis, in this case, travel patterns, NOT race, country of origin OR religion. There are other factors, things like the "nervousness" I mentioned, but you won't find too much specific (at least I hope not!) because it would invalidate some of the effectiveness.

Thanks for the specifics. I could not find it quickly when I looked.
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Re: Seriously guys - Let's not profile people

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ViperOverLord wrote: So you want to presume guilt based on association?

Oh cute, you want to profile a whole race, religion, etc. and I am "presuming guilt by association" because I say people with certain specific associations warrant more investigation?

The key words are "warrants more investigation", not "assumed guilty". Yes, if I was Omar Kadafi's best friend in college, its not unreasonable to wonder if I shared some of his views. BUT, unless I show other associations or activities, it will be just a matter of "OK, this one is clean".
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