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I've been toying with the idea of running a small vanilla game, possibly with an alternative set-up (see: True Love Mafia). And I know my wife favours pure vanilla setups.Endgame422 wrote:Honestly pure vanilla seems the way to go imo.
The fundamentals are the hard part to learn and with a solid knowledge base a player can fairly easily figure out how PRs work.
With new players i think KISS applies perfectly.

Except that can be crippling for town in its own right. Especially when it's easy to fall into the Day 1 trap of "we have nothing to go on". Doc and cop are pretty simple, and offer plenty in terms of strategic subtlety.Endgame422 wrote:Honestly pure vanilla seems the way to go imo.
The fundamentals are the hard part to learn and with a solid knowledge base a player can fairly easily figure out how PRs work.
With new players i think KISS applies perfectly.
aage wrote:Never trust CYOC or pancake.

ThisStorrZerg wrote:Or how many non vanilla games could just end day 1, if everyone mass claimed. (no seriously lol)

I don't agree that the CYOC and variables detract from scumhunting-experience. They are an alternative way to get your PR assigned, and is a game by itself. Once that part is over, game on. It adds another level to the game in the form of bluff claiming (for instance 2nd draft position to claim a powerfull town role), but the hunting remains equal to a vanilla game.aage wrote:ThisStorrZerg wrote:Or how many non vanilla games could just end day 1, if everyone mass claimed. (no seriously lol)
I'm staying out of most of the current games because they're either non-vanilla or seem too complicated to have some balance. Three of them are "choose your own mafia", "pick your own mystery" and CYOC... Seriously? Can't I just play a normal game of mafia? I honestly can't remember when I was last involved in a case against actual mafia that didn't rely on either power roles or flavour, and that is a bad thing. Current focus on flavour and ridiculous roles detracts from the level of actual scumhunting. This in turn lets mafia get away with almost anything. Case in point: me as mafia in my past ~5 games.
Yes, I would like that. I don't think Mets is correct in his first post in this thread, I think closed setups aren't necessarily worse than closed setups. The problem is balance, it always comes back to this. A closed setup is so easily rigged for or against town, most times even without the mod noticing because it's a closed setup, since players (and I am guilty of this as well) will try to find a way to 'break' the setup by finding regularities or adding up the power roles. In some cases, it becomes an exercise of flavour probability. In others, it simply becomes a mathematical exercise of lining up the night actions to reveal the liars. These games also often involve people asking the mod numerous questions about how night actions work - I've even had mafia teammates asking the mod questions about town roles that were claimed... That is not a deception game, that is a logical puzzle which comes down to "the mod doesn't lie" rather than "which player is lying?".Streaker wrote:If you'd say that you would love a more basic, balance guaranteed, game then I'd hear you.
I do agree that games are getting carried away with flavour and special powers.


The problem there is how really effective follow the cop is - from what I've read, even new players would figure it out really fast. These other newbie setups were made to try and balance that out.Metsfanmax wrote:I don't think that complex roles should be a key part of the learning games. Complex roles are just toys, they superficially make the game more interesting perhaps, but the game fundamentally isn't about the roles. Cop and doctor are enough to get the gist of how to use power roles.
Mountainous games (games with no PRs on either side) seem to heavily favour mafia. The theoretical town win rate with 10 town and 2 mafia is roughly 33%, and with 11 town it's roughly 36%. ( http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mountainous ) Not sure how that would translate to a smaller game, but I'd imagine the town win rate would go down by a decent amount.Endgame422 wrote:Honestly pure vanilla seems the way to go imo.
The mafiascum wiki page on Matrix6 says that the empirical town win rate for the variant that only has a town cop PR (column B) is 51%, which is pretty damn good.Marashu wrote:The problem there is how really effective follow the cop is - from what I've read, even new players would figure it out really fast. These other newbie setups were made to try and balance that out.Metsfanmax wrote:I don't think that complex roles should be a key part of the learning games. Complex roles are just toys, they superficially make the game more interesting perhaps, but the game fundamentally isn't about the roles. Cop and doctor are enough to get the gist of how to use power roles.
I'd agree with this. IMO Balance can be crap (not that i intentionally make mine crap, i try to balance roles as much as possible, except when otherwise noted), and if the experienced players are playing up against noobs, they can still win. (sometimes Vice Versa) However, unless the game is just broken, (relies on the mod) the noob can get some experience on how the experienced players start to formulate reads on other players, and how they try to hide the fact that they are mafia.Streaker wrote:Balance is important, but even a half-skewed setup (favouring either side 60-40 or even 65-35) is not that bad for a newbie game. Balance takes a second place to overall game experience fun factor for a newbie game, imo. Balance becomes much more of a factor in larger games with more experienced players.
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

StorrZerg wrote: i find no joy in this
StorrZerg wrote: i find no joy in this
Do they explain how they came up with the number values based on those roles? Also do they account for how some roes are useless if certain other roles are or are not in the game?Epitaph1 wrote:I just learned that Ultimate Werewolf has a system for creating balance. Each role is assigned a number (positives for townies, negatives for werewolves) and you use those to get as close to zero as possible.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/641590 ... calculator
I haven't played UW yet (I will tomorrow) but my understanding is that most of the roles correlate to what we have in mafia. Perhaps we can adopt the number system to mafia roles and try a few setups based on that.