Is God really Just?

[FabledIntegral]

I'm going to attempt to change what exactly is being discussed in the "logic dictates there must be..." and ask another question, hopefully to be answered.

My biggest problem with Christianity (not God, thus I'm going more specific here), is the Bible itself. Although an atheist, I have let myself be aware that there is a possibility of some higher intelligent source/designer out there. I merely have outlawed the Christian God as being one of the plausible sources, notably because of all the fallacies I personally have found within the Bible.

I'm discussing Christianity namely because it is what I have the most experience with (I have read the Old/New Testament thoroughly, more than one occasion, and at one point when I did it I was quite the devout Christian). This should also apply to Judaism and Islam, from what I'm aware, I just don't want to point at them specifically because I'm more ignorant on their beliefs.

The point of this is to question how could God possibly be just? Christianity focuses entirely on a loving, forgiving God and such, etc. How life on earth is a test for the afterlife. My question is...

Why would God create humans in teh first place? Ruling out any possible "we don't understand his greater plan," scenario, as I don't believe on blind faith, I'm looking for a reason. First of all, I don't think God is anthropomorphic, so to say something as great as God could possibly be "bored" or something of that sort doesn't work.

Secondly, why would he create us with teh tendency to sin? Why did he make certain things sinful in teh first place? Why would the almighty God create humans with the tendency to want to have sex, then him be cruel to tell us not to do it. He would be playing the temptor - something who's job should be reserved for Satan, not us. And considering that God created every aspect of us, as he created the universe and humanity, he must have created human personality, as everything is an offshoot of what God has done.

Why would he be so cruel as to create billions of people with the before-hand-knowledge that he would be condemning a large portion of them to hell? Why would he create humans to think in other Gods existed? Obviously the Egyptians wouldn't have believed in their Gods if they didn't believe them to be truthful. Are they condemned simply because they got unlucky and weren't born in the right geographic location of those that believed in the "true" God?

How many people are condemned because of luck? To me, the only way God could be real would be if EVERY single person, who was born since the beginning of time to everyone in the future, would have to have the EXACT same chance of getting into heaven. Otherwise, some would have an unfair chance, etc. which is against a perfect system, which god would *have* to have, correct?

All I see is certain people in teh Bible being favored, which it directly says. That's conclusive evidence enough for me that God doesn't exist. Overall, I view God as being a very cruel, entity from reading the Bible. Thus, to me, he can't possibly exist.

[PLAYER57832]

Why would God create humans in teh first place? Ruling out any possible "we don't understand his greater plan," scenario, as I don't believe on blind faith, I'm looking for a reason. First of all, I don't think God is anthropomorphic, so to say something as great as God could possibly be "bored" or something of that sort doesn't work.

a lot of qualifications there. Who is to really say God isn't those things ... Among other things, the Christian God is to have made us in his image, which indicates a certain amoung of anthropomorphism.

Secondly, why would he create us with teh tendency to sin?

Why did he make certain things sinful in teh first place? Why would the almighty God create humans with the tendency to want to have sex, then him be cruel to tell us not to do it.

I don't believe he does. There are just conditions. Those conditions do not diminish, they enhance.

He would be playing the temptor - something who's job should be reserved for Satan, not us. And considering that God created every aspect of us, as he created the universe and humanity, he must have created human personality, as everything is an offshoot of what God has done.

Why would he be so cruel as to create billions of people with the before-hand-knowledge that he would be condemning a large portion of them to hell? Why would he create humans to think in other Gods existed? Obviously the Egyptians wouldn't have believed in their Gods if they didn't believe them to be truthful. Are they condemned simply because they got unlucky and weren't born in the right geographic location of those that believed in the "true" God?

How many people are condemned because of luck? To me, the only way God could be real would be if EVERY single person, who was born since the beginning of time to everyone in the future, would have to have the EXACT same chance of getting into heaven. Otherwise, some would have an unfair chance, etc. which is against a perfect system, which god would *have* to have, correct?

All I see is certain people in teh Bible being favored, which it directly says. That's conclusive evidence enough for me that God doesn't exist. Overall, I view God as being a very cruel, entity from reading the Bible. Thus, to me, he can't possibly exist.[/quote]
Each of these are related to free will. The ultimate answer is that we, as humanity are better/ would not be humanity if we did not have free will. The propensity for evil is integral to that.

I don't know your age or if you have children, but this might be something a parent more fully understands. You love your children, you guide them ... BUT, you have to set them free into the world. You know, full well that harm will come and yet ... to not let them go is the most cruel thing you could do. Cruel if done physically OR emotionally.

As for the "chance" part. Part is still free will, but many people also believe that somehow, somewhere everyone will have the chance to hear the truth and decide.

As for the other Bible religions, some Jews actually don't believe in heaven at all. Islam has variations on heaven that sometimes differ quite a bit from the Christian one.

[MR. Nate]

I merely have outlawed the Christian God as being one of the plausible sources, notably because of all the fallacies I personally have found within the Bible.

Can we discuss these individually? I can't address all the "fallacies" that you personally feel are prohibitive.

Why would God create humans in teh first place? Ruling out any possible "we don't understand his greater plan," scenario, as I don't believe on blind faith, I'm looking for a reason. First of all, I don't think God is anthropomorphic, so to say something as great as God could possibly be "bored" or something of that sort doesn't work.

I think it's pretty clear from Scripture that while God is perfectly happy in and of Himself, He desired creatures to have a relationship with. In the same way that we occasionally seek out communities without a specific need to be a member, God desired to have a community.

Secondly, why would he create us with teh tendency to sin? Why did he make certain things sinful in teh first place? Why would the almighty God create humans with the tendency to want to have sex, then him be cruel to tell us not to do it. He would be playing the temptor - something who's job should be reserved for Satan, not us. And considering that God created every aspect of us, as he created the universe and humanity, he must have created human personality, as everything is an offshoot of what God has done.

He didn't. Adam and Eve were created perfect, with free choice, and they chose to reject a relationship with God in favor of rebellion. He gave us free will because without it, we could not chose to have a relationship with Him, which is what makes the relationship valuable. Adam and Eve's decision impacts us because at the time, they were the entire human race, and we are their descendants.
God didn't tell us not to have sex. He said, Here's a cool thing, it's called sex. Have fun with it, but keep it in monogamous, heterosexual marriages.

Why would he be so cruel as to create billions of people with the before-hand-knowledge that he would be condemning a large portion of them to hell? Why would he create humans to think in other Gods existed? Obviously the Egyptians wouldn't have believed in their Gods if they didn't believe them to be truthful. Are they condemned simply because they got unlucky and weren't born in the right geographic location of those that believed in the "true" God?

Your blaming God for people's choices. He created billions of people because he desired to have relationships with them. People that believe in other God's have (explicitly or implicitly) denied that He is the true God. And if you think revelation is limited to certain geographic locations, you seem to be underestimating the attribute of God called omnipotence.

How many people are condemned because of luck? To me, the only way God could be real would be if EVERY single person, who was born since the beginning of time to everyone in the future, would have to have the EXACT same chance of getting into heaven. Otherwise, some would have an unfair chance, etc. which is against a perfect system, which god would *have* to have, correct?

So, if the rules were the same for everyone, say, believing in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the only payment for sin, that would be fair? What do you know, that's the way it is.

All I see is certain people in teh Bible being favored, which it directly says. That's conclusive evidence enough for me that God doesn't exist. Overall, I view God as being a very cruel, entity from reading the Bible. Thus, to me, he can't possibly exist.

If you're talking about Israel being "Chosen" then the largest chunk of that is chosen in order to share God's message with the rest of the World, and provide a conduit for the Messiah. It's not that individuals had less of an opportunity to enter into a relationship with God, it's simply the fact that He chose Israel as a tool to declare Himself, and other individuals needed to approach that conduit.

I hope that I've given an appropriate response to at least some of your questions. And I hope you’ll be patient if I can’t immediately reply to every response.

[Neoteny]

This seems like a possibly fun conversation.

Why would God create humans in teh first place? Ruling out any possible "we don't understand his greater plan," scenario, as I don't believe on blind faith, I'm looking for a reason. First of all, I don't think God is anthropomorphic, so to say something as great as God could possibly be "bored" or something of that sort doesn't work.

a lot of qualifications there. Who is to really say God isn't those things ... Among other things, the Christian God is to have made us in his image, which indicates a certain amoung of anthropomorphism.

I think this anthropomorphism is one of the biggest caveats to believing in gods. We are terribly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and yet we (being multiple religions) expect an ultimate being that has emotions and concerns similar to ours. It's a sign of our human conceit, and seems rather transparent to me.

Secondly, why would he create us with teh tendency to sin?

Why did he make certain things sinful in teh first place? Why would the almighty God create humans with the tendency to want to have sex, then him be cruel to tell us not to do it.

I don't believe he does. There are just conditions. Those conditions do not diminish, they enhance.

This confuzzles me, dear.

He would be playing the temptor - something who's job should be reserved for Satan, not us. And considering that God created every aspect of us, as he created the universe and humanity, he must have created human personality, as everything is an offshoot of what God has done.

Why would he be so cruel as to create billions of people with the before-hand-knowledge that he would be condemning a large portion of them to hell? Why would he create humans to think in other Gods existed? Obviously the Egyptians wouldn't have believed in their Gods if they didn't believe them to be truthful. Are they condemned simply because they got unlucky and weren't born in the right geographic location of those that believed in the "true" God?

How many people are condemned because of luck? To me, the only way God could be real would be if EVERY single person, who was born since the beginning of time to everyone in the future, would have to have the EXACT same chance of getting into heaven. Otherwise, some would have an unfair chance, etc. which is against a perfect system, which god would *have* to have, correct? All I see is certain people in teh Bible being favored, which it directly says. That's conclusive evidence enough for me that God doesn't exist. Overall, I view God as being a very cruel, entity from reading the Bible. Thus, to me, he can't possibly exist.

Each of these are related to free will. The ultimate answer is that we, as humanity are better/ would not be humanity if we did not have free will. The propensity for evil is integral to that.

I don't know your age or if you have children, but this might be something a parent more fully understands. You love your children, you guide them ... BUT, you have to set them free into the world. You know, full well that harm will come and yet ... to not let them go is the most cruel thing you could do. Cruel if done physically OR emotionally.

As for the "chance" part. Part is still free will, but many people also believe that somehow, somewhere everyone will have the chance to hear the truth and decide.

As for the other Bible religions, some Jews actually don't believe in heaven at all. Islam has variations on heaven that sometimes differ quite a bit from the Christian one.

I don't know that we want to get into this again, but I still can't conclude that omniscience is compatible with free will. Assuming I have a soul, god knows exactly what's going to happen. I'm rejecting him (or whatever it is that pisses him off, according to whatever religion), and I'm going to hell. Particularly, as his creation, my soul, or my personality, or whatever, was made and foreseen by him. How is this free will? If that were the case, it's only an illusion. And a sick one at that. Your parent analogy is one that is often brought up to explain this, but the difference between god and a parent, is that a parent might have an idea about what the child might do, but he or she does not know for sure. Of course, you try to instill positive values and such into a child, but there is a big difference that the analogy fails to explain.

[Neoteny]

Oh, and surprise!

[PLAYER57832]

Assuming I have a soul, god knows exactly what's going to happen. I'm rejecting him (or whatever it is that pisses him off, according to whatever religion), and I'm going to hell.

God does know all. He might know that you are going to change at some point in the future. He might know that, whether you are "saved" or not, some contact you will have will cause other people to be saved.

Why was Hitler allowed to exist ... or Charles Manson ... or ???

Maybe the ultimate good is greater than woud exist were those horrible events not to happen.

Particularly, as his creation, my soul, or my personality, or whatever, was made and foreseen by him. How is this free will? If that were the case, it's only an illusion. And a sick one at that.

It is as much a conundrum as trying to understand what the nature of the universe really and truly is. How can there be anything before time? How can it not end and begin?

The closest I can come, other than the parenting analogy, is just to say that what he foresaw overall was greater than if it did not exist ... including the evil and harm. As for how he could see all this and yet we still have free will...it is the difference between laying out a plan and knowing what will happen and actually manipulating things. Does God know? Yes. Does God intervene at times? Yes. Do we have choices? Yes. Is everything "equal" or "fair" per human terms? No. But, in the end, we must believe in free will or we must believe that everything is ordained already. That choice, too, is yours.

Your parent analogy is one that is often brought up to explain this, but the difference between god and a parent, is that a parent might have an idea about what the child might do, but he or she does not know for sure. Of course, you try to instill positive values and such into a child, but there is a big difference that the analogy fails to explain.

It is definitely not exact, but it is as about as close an explanation as we can get as humans.

Does a reflection show a true image of you? yes. But, there is much more. God is more than humans. He is so much more that we have trouble at times even grasping how much more. So, the analogies will be imperfect. That is all they are ... analogies, not perfect explanations.

The true similarity probably takes being a parent. Because in a lot of ways, we do dictate and control what our children do and say and even think ... to a point. BUT, then they grow up ... and we find that either we did a decent job or we did not. Sometimes the hardest thing of all perhaps is knowing that we did the best we could and still failed. If we, as humans, feel that pain, then how much greater must God's be? How much greater his pain since all he has to do is intervene. There must be a reason he has put these constraints upon himself. The only answer is that the end result must be worth it.

Maybe another analogy is better. My husband is a firman. When the whistle goes off, there is a chance he might not come home. Is that a good outcome? Of course not. BUT, what would happen if there were no fireman.

Could there be a time when he might have to decide to leave someone inside, because the risk is just too great? I sure don't want to be in his shoes then. I do not know what his answer will be. Will he come home, wracked with guilt ... or will he not come home at all? As a human, we think relatively simply. God's answers, problems are, of course so much more complex than those "simple" choices. So, as a fireman, they try to spend a fair amount of time educating the young and communty adults in fire prevention. BUT, we are ultimately grateful for the fire team ... and, though I might give you a different answer "after" a different result ... I do think it is worth it.

[ParadiceCity9]

I think the title of the thread should be "Is God really there?"

[radiojake]

IF there was a God, s/he (according to Christian dogma) isn't just at all, purely for the fact that God would rather have people in heaven who may have lived life being an absolute asshole (ie. Bush and his end time croonies who own and run coorporations that directly profit from war and natural disasters) but recognise his/her existence - as opposed to someone who lives a good life but doesn't 'repent sins' because of their lack of faith in organised religion.

Basically, would a murderer who repents and asks for forgiveness be 'allowed' into heaven over someone who spent their life as a charity worker or ran another social programme but didn't happen to be religious at all?

Where's the justice in that?

Either way the question is pointless because there is no God anyway, but just something to think about -

[n00blet]

These are very good points, which lay the basis for the main reasons why I cannot believe in the Christian god. However, one of the interesting points behind the Islamic faith is that Allah, the Islamic god, created this world as a test; thereby, all of the 'evils' in this world are not necessarily 'evils', rather they are, through one's avoidance or endurance of them, they are gateways to salvation.

[joecoolfrog]

IF there was a God, s/he (according to Christian dogma) isn't just at all, purely for the fact that God would rather have people in heaven who may have lived life being an absolute asshole (ie. Bush and his end time croonies who own and run coorporations that directly profit from war and natural disasters) but recognise his/her existence - as opposed to someone who lives a good life but doesn't 'repent sins' because of their lack of faith in organised religion.

Basically, would a murderer who repents and asks for forgiveness be 'allowed' into heaven over someone who spent their life as a charity worker or ran another social programme but didn't happen to be religious at all?

Where's the justice in that?

Either way the question is pointless because there is no God anyway, but just something to think about -

I have asked a similar question several times before and been told that to get salvation you must accept Jesus, it may be the technical answer but it doesnt really address the point.
If heaven is happy to accept evil dressed in a cloak of piety then I am sorry but I want no part of it, Bush is a Christian in name only and it disgusts me that he uses his God as an excuse for slaughtering innocent people and lining his friends pockets.

[deliaselene]

Have been brought up a Christain I was taught God is love.... so is love our true destiny? thru love do we find meaning?

are our lives a mystery only revealed to us thru love... are we never fully real until we let ourselves fall in love ? and thru love we also learn pain...

so is God just ? why does he have to be?

[Juan_Bottom]

Have been brought up a Christain I was taught God is love.... so is love our true destiny? thru love do we find meaning?

are our lives a mystery only revealed to us thru love... are we never fully real until we let ourselves fall in love ? and thru love we also learn pain...

so is God just ? why does he have to be?

Who told you this and how do you know if they were "real?" If they weren't real, then you ought to be ashamed.

[MR. Nate]

IF there was a God, s/he (according to Christian dogma) isn't just at all, purely for the fact that God would rather have people in heaven who may have lived life being an absolute asshole (ie. Bush and his end time croonies who own and run coorporations that directly profit from war and natural disasters) but recognise his/her existence - as opposed to someone who lives a good life but doesn't 'repent sins' because of their lack of faith in organised religion.

Basically, would a murderer who repents and asks for forgiveness be 'allowed' into heaven over someone who spent their life as a charity worker or ran another social programme but didn't happen to be religious at all?

Where's the justice in that?

Either way the question is pointless because there is no God anyway, but just something to think about -

I have asked a similar question several times before and been told that to get salvation you must accept Jesus, it may be the technical answer but it doesnt really address the point.
If heaven is happy to accept evil dressed in a cloak of piety then I am sorry but I want no part of it, Bush is a Christian in name only and it disgusts me that he uses his God as an excuse for slaughtering innocent people and lining his friends pockets.

You're rating a person with a good life as somehow more deserving of heaven. It's pretty clear in scripture that no good deed or deeds is enough to get into heaven, but everyone who has ever done a single thing wrong is unable to stand before a Holy God. God's standard is absolute perfection. Since none of us can reach that standard, he allows us into heaven if we admit we are not holy or perfect, and accept Christs death as the substitution for our punishment. Of course, if we do this, we'll be grateful enough to God that we attempt to do things that are right, but the key is to always remember that no one can earn it on their own.
So no matter how good or bad a person is, accepting their own depravity and turning to Christ cleanses them. To a certain degree, however we can see how sincere that decision was based on their actions after that. IF a person claims to have repented, but continues to live a life in rebellion to God's standards, we have to question whether that decision was true or not. Turning to Christ is a life changing decision, it impacts your actions, your words, even your thoughts. If a person has truly committed themselves to Christ, they are going to change for the better.

Have been brought up a Christain I was taught God is love.... so is love our true destiny? thru love do we find meaning?

are our lives a mystery only revealed to us thru love... are we never fully real until we let ourselves fall in love ? and thru love we also learn pain...

so is God just ? why does he have to be?

God is love in the same way that God is Holiness or Justice or any one of His attributes. He is the full embodiment of Love. You're looking at love as some sort of an emotional experience. The love of God is different in that it is more universal. If God loves each individual, He will treat each individual with the utmost care and respect, balancing the needs of the individuals against one another, and bringing about the best result for everyone. That's justice. The justice of God is as much a part of Him as His love is. e]

[suggs]

If God is love, how do you explain The Problem Of Evil?
Do you use the Free Will Defence?
And if so, is God not omnipotent but but bound by the actions mortals do?

My solution -get rid of God. Then it all makes sense, in a "isn't the world beautiful in a completely random sort of way".

[MR. Nate]

suggs, since you clearly have had this discussion before, I'm just going to skip to the third question. If you'd really like to understand about the first 2, pm me and I'll get some stuff to you.

is God not omnipotent but but bound by the actions mortals do?"

The existence of evil is allowed by God for a time in order to complete His plan. If he were to destroy evil, he would have to destroy anyone associated with it. That would include unrepentant individuals (such as several people in this forum). Instead, in His mercy, He allows evil to continue so that more individuals can be saved from eternal separation from him. At some point in the future, He will completely destroy evil forever, but until then He allows it to continue in order to accomplish the salvation of more individuals.


And, by the way, which philosopher who killed God actually thought the world was beautiful? It seems to me that everyone who does the hard work of working out the effects of a godless world comes back with a handful of despair and little more. I think the beauty you see in this world is by focusing on the flower while refusing to acknowledge the prison around you.

[deliaselene]

If God is love, how do you explain The Problem Of Evil?
Do you use the Free Will Defence?
And if so, is God not omnipotent but but bound by the actions mortals do?

My solution -get rid of God. Then it all makes sense, in a "isn't the world beautiful in a completely random sort of way".

or perhaps we all collectively are part of the whole... energy can never be created nor destroyed...

and without the bad would we recognise the good?

[Dancing Mustard]

in His mercy, He allows evil to continue so that more individuals can be saved from eternal separation from him. At some point in the future, He will completely destroy evil forever, but until then He allows it to continue in order to accomplish the salvation of more individuals.

Sounds like a lazy bugger to me.

If this 'God' was so intent on letting souls be saved, then couldn't he just erase all memories of evil, magically prevent all future evil-acts, and give us all a clear and comprehensive tutorial on how to go about freely repenting were we minded to do so?

Sounds like a fairly limited God who can only go about getting rid of evil by either letting us do our own thing, or by nuking everybody who ever touched the stuff. I'd have thought an omnipotent being would have been able to be a bit more subtle than all that fire+brimstone stuff.

You're a lovely man Nate, but I can't help but think that all this "Here's what I imagine God's plan might be; but despite being all powerful, he's still bound to go about fulfilling it in the most convoluted and inefficient way possible" is a bit straw-clutchy really. Also, is it in the bible, or is it more speculation?

[heavycola]

I don't know that we want to get into this again, but I still can't conclude that omniscience is compatible with free will. Assuming I have a soul, god knows exactly what's going to happen. I'm rejecting him (or whatever it is that pisses him off, according to whatever religion), and I'm going to hell. Particularly, as his creation, my soul, or my personality, or whatever, was made and foreseen by him. How is this free will? If that were the case, it's only an illusion. And a sick one at that. Your parent analogy is one that is often brought up to explain this, but the difference between god and a parent, is that a parent might have an idea about what the child might do, but he or she does not know for sure. Of course, you try to instill positive values and such into a child, but there is a big difference that the analogy fails to explain.

No one has really answered this yet, I suspect because it is unanswerable. Omniscience is an absolute quality, it can;'t mena one thing to you and another to someone else. It is what it is. If god is omniscient then free will is bullshit, for the reasons neo put forth.

if god knows what choices we are going to make, if those choices are pre-made, then free will is an illusion.

[radiojake]

You're rating a person with a good life as somehow more deserving of heaven. It's pretty clear in scripture that no good deed or deeds is enough to get into heaven, but everyone who has ever done a single thing wrong is unable to stand before a Holy God. God's standard is absolute perfection. Since none of us can reach that standard, he allows us into heaven if we admit we are not holy or perfect, and accept Christs death as the substitution for our punishment. Of course, if we do this, we'll be grateful enough to God that we attempt to do things that are right, but the key is to always remember that no one can earn it on their own.
So no matter how good or bad a person is, accepting their own depravity and turning to Christ cleanses them. To a certain degree, however we can see how sincere that decision was based on their actions after that. IF a person claims to have repented, but continues to live a life in rebellion to God's standards, we have to question whether that decision was true or not. Turning to Christ is a life changing decision, it impacts your actions, your words, even your thoughts. If a person has truly committed themselves to Christ, they are going to change for the better.

I got to stop entering these religious threads (which, for the most part, I do avoid) - I will never understand why full grown adults will continue to prescribe to lunacy.

[PLAYER57832]

IF there was a God, s/he (according to Christian dogma) isn't just at all, purely for the fact that God would rather have people in heaven who may have lived life being an absolute asshole (ie. Bush and his end time croonies who own and run coorporations that directly profit from war and natural disasters) but recognise his/her existence - as opposed to someone who lives a good life but doesn't 'repent sins' because of their lack of faith in organised religion.

Basically, would a murderer who repents and asks for forgiveness be 'allowed' into heaven over someone who spent their life as a charity worker or ran another social programme but didn't happen to be religious at all?

Where's the justice in that?

Or it could be that human concepts of "justice" and Godly concepts differ.

When I asky my son to share his stuff with the neighbor .. he is quick to shout "no fair". We are like children to God in that regard. We see only what we see.

These are very good points, which lay the basis for the main reasons why I cannot believe in the Christian god. However, one of the interesting points behind the Islamic faith is that Allah, the Islamic god, created this world as a test; thereby, all of the 'evils' in this world are not necessarily 'evils', rather they are, through one's avoidance or endurance of them, they are gateways to salvation.

This is very much part of Christianity. It is just one that some people try to ignore. Christianity and Islam share the same God, they differ primarily in the interpretations of the rules we must follow, not in who God/Allah is.

Don't mistake a few people's interpretation of a religion for the religion itself. If you will judge, you need to study each fully... or at least more than superficially (full study of any religion probably takes many lifetimes, but you can do more than just look at the surface).

[PLAYER57832]

You're rating a person with a good life as somehow more deserving of heaven. It's pretty clear in scripture that no good deed or deeds is enough to get into heaven, but everyone who has ever done a single thing wrong is unable to stand before a Holy God. God's standard is absolute perfection. Since none of us can reach that standard, he allows us into heaven if we admit we are not holy or perfect, and accept Christs death as the substitution for our punishment. Of course, if we do this, we'll be grateful enough to God that we attempt to do things that are right, but the key is to always remember that no one can earn it on their own.
So no matter how good or bad a person is, accepting their own depravity and turning to Christ cleanses them. To a certain degree, however we can see how sincere that decision was based on their actions after that. IF a person claims to have repented, but continues to live a life in rebellion to God's standards, we have to question whether that decision was true or not. Turning to Christ is a life changing decision, it impacts your actions, your words, even your thoughts. If a person has truly committed themselves to Christ, they are going to change for the better.

I got to stop entering these religious threads (which, for the most part, I do avoid) - I will never understand why full grown adults will continue to prescribe to lunacy.

It all lunacy in that regard ... you just happen to subscribe to a different sort.

Claiming there is no God is really no more sane than claims that there is one. And, how one thinks about each varies. Make your own decision, but unless you can actually prove I am wrong ... or I can prove you wrong, without any question, we each should respect the other's ideas.

(which, of course, does not preclude an interested, somewhat heated internet debate )

[joecoolfrog]

Nate
Correct me if im wrong but briefly you are saying;

1) One can lead a good and fruitful life,be a credit to their community but be barred from heaven if not accepting Jesus.

2) One can be a immoral murderous rogue but providing they accept salvation they will be saved. Now I see no time frame here so one can be a monster for 70 years and then repent
on ones deathbed ( not difficult to be pious and sincere for a day or 2 if the time of reckoning is fast approaching )

Frankly it doesn't add up does it, an omnipotent God could easily judge a persons overal life in a milisecond and that would guarantee that only the worthy entered heaven. Of course that would close a lot of second/third chance loopholes and mean less pennies for the church coffers, better marketing I agree but not the best way to sort out the truly deserving. However if we stretch a point and accept that this dogma is purely designed to give everybody countless opportunities to repent and be saved, how then does this gel with the zeal of the religious right with regard to Capital punnishment. After all if leeway is given to all and sundry on the entry qualification to heaven then why no opportunity to repent on lowly earth and be saved from execution.

[PLAYER57832]

in His mercy, He allows evil to continue so that more individuals can be saved from eternal separation from him. At some point in the future, He will completely destroy evil forever, but until then He allows it to continue in order to accomplish the salvation of more individuals.

Sounds like a lazy bugger to me.

If this 'God' was so intent on letting souls be saved, then couldn't he just erase all memories of evil, magically prevent all future evil-acts, and give us all a clear and comprehensive tutorial on how to go about freely repenting were we minded to do so?

Sounds like a fairly limited God who can only go about getting rid of evil by either letting us do our own thing, or by nuking everybody who ever touched the stuff. I'd have thought an omnipotent being would have been able to be a bit more subtle than all that fire+brimstone stuff.

You're a lovely man Nate, but I can't help but think that all this "Here's what I imagine God's plan might be; but despite being all powerful, he's still bound to go about fulfilling it in the most convoluted and inefficient way possible" is a bit straw-clutchy really. Also, is it in the bible, or is it more speculation?

There are people who think this, obviously, but it is definitely not consistant with either mainline Protestant or Roman Catholic or anabaptist (which some like to count as seperate from the rest of Protestantism, so I list it seperately) Christianity

Nate
Correct me if im wrong but briefly you are saying;

1) One can lead a good and fruitful life,be a credit to their community but be barred from heaven if not accepting Jesus.

2) One can be a immoral murderous rogue but providing they accept salvation they will be saved. Now I see no time frame here so one can be a monster for 70 years and then repent
on ones deathbed ( not difficult to be pious and sincere for a day or 2 if the time of reckoning is fast approaching )

Frankly it doesn't add up does it, an omnipotent God could easily judge a persons overal life in a milisecond and that would guarantee that only the worthy entered heaven. Of course that would close a lot of second/third chance loopholes and mean less pennies for the church coffers, better marketing I agree but not the best way to sort out the truly deserving. However if we stretch a point and accept that this dogma is purely designed to give everybody countless opportunities to repent and be saved, how then does this gel with the zeal of the religious right with regard to Capital punnishment. After all if leeway is given to all and sundry on the entry qualification to heaven then why no opportunity to repent on lowly earth and be saved from execution.

It might not "add up", but it is, essentially, what the Bible says. God relishes every sinner who returns to him ... no matter their faults.

There are 3 "reasons" (in human terms) that are often cited.

1. it is just an example of the fullness of God's love that he can accept any sinner.
2. the repentence MUST be real and true... the reality is that most true evil people are so entrenched in evil that they will never come to see the light truly.
3. That this really a gross simplification.

This latter includes 2 common qualifications. One is that some people ... those who truly embrace evil and have the "mark of the beast" cannot be saved (but what that is is debateable, as is this interpretation).

Another is that there is some way in which all good people will really and truly come to Christ and be saved.

Some churches basically answer this by laying out one set of rules for those within the church and saying that others, the unbaptized are not held to that standard. This usually means adult baptism. And the answer to the laws is that they are there, ultimately, for our own good. Because, as painful as they are to follow, they do lead to a better life overall.


Anyway, a gross simplification of complicated matters, but those are the most common answers.

One thing is clear. Christianity is about Christ and his forgiveness. The variations reflect that humans are different, not that God is inconsistant.

[The1exile]

Why was Hitler allowed to exist ... or Charles Manson ... or ???

Maybe the ultimate good is greater than woud exist were those horrible events not to happen.

or maybe there is no god.

Occam's Razor strikes back.

[PLAYER57832]

Why was Hitler allowed to exist ... or Charles Manson ... or ???

Maybe the ultimate good is greater than woud exist were those horrible events not to happen.

or maybe there is no god.

Occam's Razor strikes back.

No one can prove either way, so yes, that possibility exists. But, the question was about Christianity, the Christian God. Christians believe God exists.