World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

[mpjh]

Yeah, yeah, we have all heard the excuses the Germans give for taking on fascism as their heritage.

Essentially it was fear of the other, much the same as W's base feared "terrorism" and the Muslims, the Germans feared socialism and Russia. Ignorance and fear, it hasn't changed, we even fall for it. But that is not surprising with the shit education most people in the country get.

Of course, the essence of racism is fear of the other, which is why it remains such a strong motivating force in the world today.

[muy_thaiguy]

Yeah, yeah, we have all heard the excuses the Germans give for taking on fascism as their heritage.

Essentially it was fear of the other, much the same as W's base feared "terrorism" and the Muslims, the Germans feared socialism and Russia. Ignorance and fear, it hasn't changed, we even fall for it. But that is not surprising with the shit education most people in the country get.

Of course, the essence of racism is fear of the other, which is why it remains such a strong motivating force in the world today.

Wait, what? When did this come up? I could have sworn we were talking about why the Pope and others of his generation were swept up in the whole Hitler thing. You know, talking about how Germany actually had a worse depression then the US and Britain and how Hitler came along and got rid of their debt? But of course, it is one thing to talk about it now, then it is to have actually lived it. So of course you would try to change the topic (like you have before) whenever historical fact is brought up and shoots your theories and alternate history down (like it has before) to save face. Which is getting a bit ridiculous.

[PLAYER57832]

He was not a child, he was a teenager, old enough to fight back.

Age is irrelevant. The situation is relevant. Unless you have been in a similarly oppressive and dangerous situation, you can only imagine that you know how you would act. Yes, we all wish to believe we would be the "heros". Maybe you would. But, we don't really and truly know and therefore cannot judge how this other person acted.

I am a veteran who organized publicly against the war in Viet Nam while in uniform. I know the risks you take to fight for what you believe is right. The pope was a coward, who saw jews marched to the death camps, whose neighbors went to the concentration camps and died because they were conscientious objectors, yet he continued to serve in the Nazi army. You always have a choice, and he choose to collaborate.

I see, so you feel that opposing the Vietnahm war in the U.S. is the same as growing up in Nazis Germany?

That you opposed the war, stood up for your beliefs is certainly laudible. I still say it has little to do with being a German child, teenager, or even adult under Nazism.


I say it again... what makes Germany so terrifying is that they were JUST LIKE US. They were not these horrible people with no morals. And yet ... what they did was truly horrible. Saying that consider yourself "above" them, say that "it could not happen to me" .... is to put yourself as superior to them. That is ALWAYS dangerous.

That many, many did stand up to the Nazis of course makes them heroic. But the reason it is heroism is precisely because it is to act above and beyond the standard.

I often agree with much of what you say, but in this you are just plain wrong... very, very, very wrong and I frankly find it disturbing that you, who normally are very critical and objective are not so in this instance.

[mpjh]

I am saying that we always, always have a choice. Everyone must have some curiosity about the world around them and decide which side they are on in any important struggle of the time. This pope decided early to side with the Nazi. He joined the Hitler youth. He entered the army and stayed there until the end of the war. Many of his own neighbors openly opposed the Nazi, and died for it. One of his neighbors was a conscientious objector who died in the death camps. Am I faulting this pope for his cowardice? Yes, absolutely. This pope, along with millions of Germans, thought they were better than the Jews, and other undesirables, and went along with the Nazi campaigns of terror against these people. Hitler did not do all the terrible things of WWII. It took the support of millions of other people, who didn't care. Making excuses for them now is pornographic.

[PopeBenXVI]

According to your initial post you stated that the Popes "true colors were showing" as a result of him lifting the excommunication of someone who made some very bad statements. Now you debate collaboration on his part? I will address the first.

His lifting the excommunication has to do with Theological issues and an attempt to bring together large
(and close in Doctrinal issues) groups of Christians. It has nothing to do with anti Semitic statements one may have said. Going off of your first flawed statement one would then have to make the analogy that because you are friends with someone you then therefore agree with every statement they make. Everyone knows this is not true. I have many friends that I fundamentally disagree with on key social issues. The same is to be said here.

I suppose since you are the first to throw the stone at our current Pope in accusation you will also be the first to commend Pope Pius and the church during the war for the 800,000 jews saved by the church through hiding in churches and monasteries. This was acknowledged by the Jews themselves and Pius was praised by them after the war personally for helping. The head Rabbi of Rome (Eugene Zolli) also acknowledged Pope Pius's support during the war and converted to Catholicism after the war taking the Pope's former name. Just thought you may want that history since you are so into the Catholic church and the Natzi's it seems.

[mpjh]

Jews all across the world oppose the santification of Pius because of his support of the Nazi regime.

[PLAYER57832]

I am saying that we always, always have a choice. Everyone must have some curiosity about the world around them and decide which side they are on in any important struggle of the time. This pope decided early to side with the Nazi. He joined the Hitler youth. He entered the army and stayed there until the end of the war. Many of his own neighbors openly opposed the Nazi, and died for it. One of his neighbors was a conscientious objector who died in the death camps. Am I faulting this pope for his cowardice? Yes, absolutely. This pope, along with millions of Germans, thought they were better than the Jews, and other undesirables, and went along with the Nazi campaigns of terror against these people. Hitler did not do all the terrible things of WWII. It took the support of millions of other people, who didn't care. Making excuses for them now is pornographic.

I agree that we have a choice. I agree that he should have resisted and not joined the Hitler Youth. I believe that the German people, as a whole do share a communal guilt for all that occured. However, I don't agree that this makes him a Nazis. Nor do I believe that the German people are or were any more evil than we are. That is a big reason why their actions are so scary.

As for his neighbor .. perhaps he did not resist then, but perhaps he learned from his neighbor and would act differantly now. That is what matters most, not what happened 50 years ago.

Aside from that I am Protestant and so don't give the Pope the same value as a Roman Catholic, I don't particularly like this Pope. I think he might well be somewhat anti-semetic, based on other things. That is worrisome in a man who is supposed to be Christ's successor, but is not enough to say that he is a Nazis.

I definitely don't agree that his rehabilitating this Nazi sympathizer was a good thing, though a couple of Roman Catholics have posted that this rehabilitation does not mean any sort of endorsement of the man's position.

All I am saying is that to point to his being in the Hitler Youth at that time in Germany does not make him an evil or terrible person. It means he was human.

[PLAYER57832]

Jews all across the world oppose the santification of Pius because of his support of the Nazi regime.

This is an entirely differant issue. It has little or nothing to do with Pope Benedict rehabilitating a man who proclaims the death camps never happened.

[PopeBenXVI]

Many lies have been told over the years and you are just repeating it. That however does not make it true. There are many accounts of notible Jews everywhere thanking Pius after the war. Their is no proof of your claim of "supporting the Nazi's" Tell me how he "supported them"?

Did he give them money? No, It is recorded that he gave money to people to give to Jewish families.

Did he preach Nazi's propaganda? No, he preached against the Nazi's which is why the Völkischer Beobachter (Nazi party official newspaper) said he was a horrible choice for Pope when he was elected.

Unbiased historians knows that the thousands of Jews that were saved by way of having refuge in Catholic institutions would not have been so had the he been to forceful in his critiques on Hitler after becoming Pope as he did when he was a Bishop in Germany. All The church property had sovrenty as a neutral country which allowed to save those lives. Had he been too vocal....the Nazi's even said all Catholic Church property would have been violated and considered a country at war with Germany.

Not having said exactly what you would have said in his position does not make him a supporter. It simply means he did not resist in the way you would have which is completely different.

What you fail to understand is there is a time to be brave and a time to be prudent.

[mpjh]

Sorry, you have you head stuck in that miter again. I said that Jewish organizations across the world opposed the sanctification of Pius because of his dealings with the Nazi. That is a fact.

On you last post, collaboration by joining the Nazi army was not an act of prudence, it was an act of cowardice on the part of this pope.

[PopeBenXVI]

Jews all across the world oppose the santification of Pius because of his support of the Nazi regime.

No, you said he supported them. Now your saying his dealings with them because you are a flip flopper. Show me how he supported them? Pius was prudent in his dealings with them because he worked behind the scenes. The proof is in the pudding, the Church remains and Hitler is gone.

[Napoleon Ier]

Jews all across the world oppose the santification of Pius because of his support of the Nazi regime.

This is an entirely differant issue. It has little or nothing to do with Pope Benedict rehabilitating a man who proclaims the death camps never happened.

Also, said jews are wrong.

[amppax]

Yes, Benedict is a Nazi sympathizer. He was a member of the Hitler Youth organization. He now rehabilitates Nazi apologist priests. Yes he cannot deny his true colors.

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939[7], but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Bened ... .80.931951)

Enrollment in Hitler YOuth was required

[Napoleon Ier]

Mpjh, the Hitler Youth were no more the Nazi "Army" than the Boy Scouts an élite US Military commando squad.

[PLAYER57832]

Mpjh, the Hitler Youth were no more the Nazi "Army" than the Boy Scouts an élite US Military commando squad.

In this, you are extremely misguided Napoleon Ier.

And I DO know of what I speak on this. There were cases where that was almost true, on the fringes with less than fully enthusiastic leaders. However, the intent of Hitler youth was fully indoctrination into the Nazis cause and the creation of the next generation of soldiers.

Boy Scouts, though they wear uniforms and sometimes march (not so much any more) have no military connection, and patriotism is only one minor aspect and very minimal at that (kids have to know the pledge, about their state flag, and have opportunities to learn about local and sometimes state governments at times... but about like on Mr Rogers, not like in the army )

[Napoleon Ier]

Mpjh, the Hitler Youth were no more the Nazi "Army" than the Boy Scouts an élite US Military commando squad.

In this, you are extremely misguided Napoleon Ier.

And I DO know of what I speak on this. There were cases where that was almost true, on the fringes with less than fully enthusiastic leaders. However, the intent of Hitler youth was fully indoctrination into the Nazis cause and the creation of the next generation of soldiers.

Boy Scouts, though they wear uniforms and sometimes march (not so much any more) have no military connection, and patriotism is only one minor aspect and very minimal at that (kids have to know the pledge, about their state flag, and have opportunities to learn about local and sometimes state governments at times... but about like on Mr Rogers, not like in the army )

Oh for God's sake, do you really need to be this bloody pedantic? All I'm trying to explain to the poor fool claiming Pope Benedict "watched Jews march into death camps" is that the SS and its Einsatzgruppen were frankly an entirely different kettle of fish to the Hitler Youth.

[mpjh]

In addition, Nappy, the pope, this current pope, served in the Nazi army after he was a member of the Nazi Youth organization. He served in the army right up until the end of the war, and became a prisoner of war after unsuccessfully trying to hide his uniform.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh for God's sake, do you really need to be this bloody pedantic? All I'm trying to explain to the poor fool claiming Pope Benedict "watched Jews march into death camps" is that the SS and its Einsatzgruppen were frankly an entirely different kettle of fish to the Hitler Youth.

No, you compared them to an organization to which my sons and brothers either belonged or belong. This is extraordinarily offensive to someone who's family experienced Nazis occupation.

I agree that Mpjh comparision was silly, but the reason is not because Hitler Youth were innocuous. The reason is because, as has been said already, if you lived in Germany at the time joining the youth was required and meant only that you felt that was a more effective course than being imprisoned or shot at age 14.

I am saying that we always, always have a choice. Everyone must have some curiosity about the world around them and decide which side they are on in any important struggle of the time. This pope decided early to side with the Nazi. He joined the Hitler youth.

I see, so you think that at 14, he should have had the maturity to stand up against his country, to endanger his family, risk being imprisoned or shot, for a cause he very well did not really even fully know existed. It is easy for us to say "they should have known", but that is a lot harder to do when you are inside a situation.

You spoke of your military service. I don't know if you volunteered or were drafted. It does, however, sound as though you did not escape to Canada. Later, you said you objected. However, there was a time when you did not. Are you then guilty of all the crimes committed over there in the name of the U.S.? Did you not change? Perhaps see something that made you change your mind? Why are you so quick to assume that is not the case for Pope Benedict. Further, to compare a 17 or 18 year , even a 16 year old (the minimum you would have been when enlisted) to a 14 year old is completely unfair.


I am not trying to judge your service or protest here. That is for you, not I to decide. I AM saying that unless you have additional evidence than what you have presented so far, your condemnation of Pope Benedict as a Nazis is wrong.

[PLAYER57832]

In addition, Nappy, the pope, this current pope, served in the Nazi army after he was a member of the Nazi Youth organization. He served in the army right up until the end of the war, and became a prisoner of war after unsuccessfully trying to hide his uniform.

If this is true, it is differant. Do you have sources? I have never heard of this.

However, I still say that he might well have changed since.

[PopeBenXVI]

In addition, Nappy, the pope, this current pope, served in the Nazi army after he was a member of the Nazi Youth organization. He served in the army right up until the end of the war, and became a prisoner of war after unsuccessfully trying to hide his uniform.

Blah blah blah.....

[Napoleon Ier]

In addition, Nappy, the pope, this current pope, served in the Nazi army after he was a member of the Nazi Youth organization. He served in the army right up until the end of the war, and became a prisoner of war after unsuccessfully trying to hide his uniform.

Blah blah blah.....

What, as a conscript for 2 years during which he didn't actually fight before he deserted?

[mpjh]

He didn't desert, he was captured. He had his uniform with him. He put it on and became a prisoner of war.

Let us review. At the age of 14 he joined the Hitler Youth organization, while many of his christian friends resisted joining and were imprisoned. After a short while in the Hitler youth, he joined the army, while his friend and neighbor objected as a matter of conscience and was killed in a death camp. So the illustrious pope watched Jews being marched into the death camps and not coming out, and saw his friends stand up for Christianity and die as a martyrs. But he, the great pope today, hid in the uniform of the Nazi. He is a coward and opportunist.

[PLAYER57832]

What did he do in the intervening years? That is what really matters. People learn and grow a lot from the time they are teenagers.

[luns101]

In addition, Nappy, the pope, this current pope, served in the Nazi army after he was a member of the Nazi Youth organization. He served in the army right up until the end of the war, and became a prisoner of war after unsuccessfully trying to hide his uniform.

This is beginning to sound like one of your bogus charges that Bush invades countries because God told him to, simply based on something Nabil Sha'ath said, and yet discount Mahmoud Abbas's refutation of that claim. You give only part of the story and present it as complete fact.

*New York Times article gives a more complete story of Benedict in context.

I'm starting to believe that you got turned down for a date with Mother Teresa and still hold a grudge over it.

[PLAYER57832]

New York Times article[/url] gives a more complete story of Benedict in context.

Thank you for the article. That does explain things a bit better.