Nun agrees to save woman's life, is excommunicated

[nesterdude]

Player,

No. LEGAL abortions would go down. But abortions would still happen, as they always did...but with far less safety involved. But you're ok with that, right...because "they'd get what they deserved"?

I'd actually be kinda cool with that. If you take the chance, you pay the price.
I'm, again, not even really a christian, but bottom line, abortions are incredibly inhumane and just wrong.
So yes, if you're going to murder a child, or try, hope you have a good anesthetic.

And also, Wood, there is no hard evidence how many of these abortions happened, but surely the numbers are certainly inflated as they always are on these issues. I will concede they did happen, but I'm confident they happened much less than abortions do happen today, and I'm also confident there was MUCH more gravity to the decision if in fact one had to seek alternative solutions.

[jay_a2j]

In college for Speech class, where we got to choose the topic for the final speech, I chose abortion. I got an A on that speech even though my professor was a liberal feminist. She said it was well researched even though she disagreed. I can recall 3 ways in which abortions are preformed. 1)Suction- tears the fetus apart limb by limb. 2) Saline solution- which is likened to putting salt on a slug, burning the fetus, and 3) Scalpel-used to chop up the fetus. In partial birth abortions the baby is turned around in the womb, pulled out feet first just far enough so that the head is still inside the mother. Then they inject a suction apparatus into the base of the skull and suck out the child's brain so that the skull collapses and the baby can be removed easily.

Edit: At the time I gave my speech it was in the mid 90's and at that time 4,000 abortions were preformed EVERY DAY in the US alone.


There is no defending this. Nothing at all can be said to justify it.


I will leave you with a phrase I coined, "A mothers right to choose doesn't trump a child's right to live"

[thegreekdog]

AND, this type of thing is precisely why so many of us are Protestant and NOT Roman Catholic.

Speak for yourself, I am not Roman Catholic for a few reasons that have nothing to do with abortion.


Like:


Mary worship

Confessing to a priest who then absolves you of your sin (sorry, I can confess to Christ directly and He has the power to forgive not a guy in a white collar)

The churches stance on not really wanting its congregation to read the Bible for themselves


Not that Catholics can't be Christians, they can. I just don't like all the religiosity.

Nevermind that Catholics were the first Christians...

Um no, the first Christians were probably the 12 disciples and then those that they preached to. The Catholic church came later.

You're right, sorry. Let me rephrase. Nevermind that the Catholic Church was the first organized Christian church.

[PLAYER57832]

You're right, sorry. Let me rephrase. Nevermind that the Catholic Church was the first organized Christian church.

It was not that either.

There are several churches mentioned within the New Testament. None was either named the Roman Catholic church or closely resembled the Roman Catholic Church. Also, most historians consider the Greek church to be the first.

[PLAYER57832]

Woodruff and Player,

This thread is not about abortion. It is about the Roman Catholic response. Second, I already said I don't like or agree with it except in very limited circumstances.

So stop with the idiocy.

[PLAYER57832]

Edit: At the time I gave my speech it was in the mid 90's and at that time 4,000 abortions were preformed EVERY DAY in the US alone.
"

That data includes things that would not be considered an abortion by most people... but go on believing as you would.

According to you everyone who doesn't share your views is out there advertising for clinics.

[thegreekdog]

You're right, sorry. Let me rephrase. Nevermind that the Catholic Church was the first organized Christian church.

It was not that either.

There are several churches mentioned within the New Testament. None was either named the Roman Catholic church or closely resembled the Roman Catholic Church. Also, most historians consider the Greek church to be the first.

EVEN BETTER!

[PLAYER57832]

And also, Wood, there is no hard evidence how many of these abortions happened, but surely the numbers are certainly inflated as they always are on these issues. I will concede they did happen, but I'm confident they happened much less than abortions do happen today, and I'm also confident there was MUCH more gravity to the decision if in fact one had to seek alternative solutions.

My grandmother was a nurse during this period, and spent some time in the army during the war, as a nurse.

She almost never talked about it, but.. no, the numbers of deaths to women were very high.

Also, she went through training as a midwife. They had a bucket for "monstors". The goal, she said was that the child "would never cry".

I find it distasteful. But what takes us from that is advances in medicine. Like most things, though, there is a price. The price here is that if take the decisions of life from God's hands, then we need to consider death as well. Nothing in the Bible tells us that death is the "enemy". Sin, not death is the enemy.

[Calidus]

This ruling does not stem from the Bible, from the teachings of Christ or even plain compassion. This ruling stems from a dogmatic and patriarchial system that, sadly, the Roman Catholic Church has too often shown itself to be. John Paul undid a lot of Roman Catholic harm, but this new guy.. takes the church back to places it never needed to be.

AND, this type of thing is precisely why so many of us are Protestant and NOT Roman Catholic.

Set aside the fact that even Roman Catholic doctrine allows procdures that harm a fetus to save the mother's life, that this ruling was made at the very time when we find out that the church not only looked aside and preached "forgiveness" to priests who repeatedly molested CHILDREN, effectively made the children victims of that heneous crime, driving them from the church.. this current church can have no other label than corruption. This ruling is blasphemy. I takes man's rules and tries to supplant GOD's rules because some human cannot fathom the realities of a life he will never, ever have to live or deal with in any true way.

This "Grinds my Gears" (Any Family Guy Fans?), the fact that you say a few thing here that I find completely false.

To start off, I am Catholic, and I believe there are some problems with the church in regards to some issues such as the child molestation. However I want to make something clear here. The reason that I believe abortion is such a big deal, is because you are basically playing God. You are deciding who dies and who doesn't. Also, I don't care if you are the Doctor of all doctors, you can only guess if giving birth will kill the mother or not. However, an abortion is 100% saying...you are going to kill a person, period.

So, You say that the kids that have been desturbed by molesters can't be cured of the I admit very disturbing situation? AND you say that is worse than killing a baby (a life) that had no choice in the matter? Most women that I have talked to about abortion agree on the following. 1, The abortion process is probably just as disturbing as a molestation. I am a male, but regardless I have heard the stories of those who have gotten an abortion. Do you realize what the women are actually feeling, it's not as quick and painless as you might think it is. Also, it can lead to not being able to give birth anymore. On top of that, most women experiance this "Sinking feeling", even if it takes many years to realize. They notice how aweful abortions are. However, once they realize the grace of God and admit the wrong doings, they themselves can be cured of this disturbing situation. Again, I can tell you that there is no way that a Baby can ever get help with an abortion, because they are dead.

I think the nun was pressured from the doctors around, who believed so much that the abortion was the right thing. The main thing is that, in no situation is it ok. I believe strongly that all women who give birth to a baby will recieve the grace of God. It doesn't matter if you were raped, OR if you die while giving birth - at least you are not a) playing God and b) deliberatley killing a person.

I'm not sure what I would say about those priests, they should probably lose their priesthood, maybe excommunicated as well. I think that killing a person is much more severe, and a nun who should fully understand what an abortion means, should probably deserve what she got. I am not one who likes to give out punishments though, I just can at least see why the Catholic church did what they did.

[oddzy]

AND, this type of thing is precisely why so many of us are Protestant and NOT Roman Catholic.

Speak for yourself, I am not Roman Catholic for a few reasons that have nothing to do with abortion.


Like:


Mary worship

Confessing to a priest who then absolves you of your sin (sorry, I can confess to Christ directly and He has the power to forgive not a guy in a white collar)

The churches stance on not really wanting its congregation to read the Bible for themselves


Not that Catholics can't be Christians, they can. I just don't like all the religiosity.

catholics do not worship mary. she is not, nor has ever been considered, part of the godhead. she is venerated and honored, because she said "yes" to god's plan for her even though it could've meant her death. at time, she is referred to as a co-mediatrix, because the choice she made allowed jesus to become incarnate. but at no point does catholic doctrine or dogma hold with worshiping mary.

the practice of confession stems directly from the admonishment to "confess your sins to one another" in conjunction with the belief that the priest - when serving in his official capacity - is jesus' representative on earth. in the act of reconciliation, it is god that does the forgiving, but the priest that speaks the words so that the penitent can actually hear.

perhaps you are also not aware of the church's position on the reading of the bible in a historical context. for most of the church's history, books were not accessible nor could most people read. for that reason, there is a cycle of readings from the bible that spans 3 years. if one attends church faithfully on sundays and holy days of obligation, one will hear the bible in its entirety minus the passages from leviticus outlining old testament kosher law. in the course of the mass, there are two readings - an old testament and a new testament letters - and a selection from the gospel. the psalms are also read during the responsorial psalm reading. all in all, there is quite a lot of direct scripture in the catholic service.

the church does have an issue with what it sees as problems in translation. for instance, it allowed a translation of acts by the venerable bede as early as the 700s but did not sanction other translations by tyndale and wycliffe later. so it's not the idea that scripture should not be in the vernacular, but that it should be a good translation.

[PLAYER57832]

This ruling does not stem from the Bible, from the teachings of Christ or even plain compassion. This ruling stems from a dogmatic and patriarchial system that, sadly, the Roman Catholic Church has too often shown itself to be. John Paul undid a lot of Roman Catholic harm, but this new guy.. takes the church back to places it never needed to be.

AND, this type of thing is precisely why so many of us are Protestant and NOT Roman Catholic.

Set aside the fact that even Roman Catholic doctrine allows procdures that harm a fetus to save the mother's life, that this ruling was made at the very time when we find out that the church not only looked aside and preached "forgiveness" to priests who repeatedly molested CHILDREN, effectively made the children victims of that heneous crime, driving them from the church.. this current church can have no other label than corruption. This ruling is blasphemy. I takes man's rules and tries to supplant GOD's rules because some human cannot fathom the realities of a life he will never, ever have to live or deal with in any true way.

This "Grinds my Gears" (Any Family Guy Fans?), the fact that you say a few thing here that I find completely false.

To start off, I am Catholic, and I believe there are some problems with the church in regards to some issues such as the child molestation. However I want to make something clear here. The reason that I believe abortion is such a big deal, is because you are basically playing God. You are deciding who dies and who doesn't. Also, I don't care if you are the Doctor of all doctors, you can only guess if giving birth will kill the mother or not. However, an abortion is 100% saying...you are going to kill a person, period.

We play God all the time, we challenge God every time we give our kids medicine, surgaries, etc. I am not a Christian Scientist, but at least they are consistant.

When you choose to play God, as modern medicine is, you don't just get to say "I will take the good and ignore all the negative consequences". In Christ's day they did not have children who's entire existance was to be tied to tubes and machines. They did not have children who woudl offer no response at all, except to keep breating. In Christ's day children did die. In Christ's day, they likely did bring children to get infected with some diseases, much like our grandparents did with measles, knowing that harm might well result, but that in the end, it would save the children from far worse. People of that day did not have to face the decisions we do, because ALL of the children would die. Many children we can cure as if it is nothing would have died or suffered horribly. Yet, there is a limit to those miracles. A limit and a responsibility. The Roman Catholic church wants to have it only one way. They try to claim that death is somehow "against God", even though God himself ordained that thing should die. God does NOT intervene many, many times.

The worst fate for anyone, child or adult is not to die, it is to live in constant suffering. You claim some moral high ground? What RIGHT do you have to so overlook God's will that you will claim these doctors, that nun had no right to intervene.

You have this illusion that everything always works out good. The real truth is that many times doctors CAN predict, with certainty that a child will die or that the mother will unless specific steps are taken. There are also cases where that is not true, but sometimes it is.

So, You say that the kids that have been desturbed by molesters can't be cured of the I admit very disturbing situation? AND you say that is worse than killing a baby (a life) that had no choice in the matter?

I say quite possibly, yes. A child not born stays with God. A child that is molested is likely to turn from God. I am not speaking esoterically here. I speak reality. But, the real argument is that this nun made a decision not to kill a child, but to save the mother. Had that mother died, the child would have as well. Were that not the case, were the child viable, then it would not have been abortion, it would be an emergency C-section.

Most women that I have talked to about abortion agree on the following. 1, The abortion process is probably just as disturbing as a molestation. I am a male, but regardless I have heard the stories of those who have gotten an abortion. Do you realize what the women are actually feeling, it's not as quick and painless as you might think it is.

Newsflash, I had one. The child was dead, but it was still called an abortion. I also have talked to more than a few women who have had them and I can gaurantee they were more forthright with me than they would be with any male.

But here is the thing. I DO NOT LIKE ABORTION. I do not agree it is OK, except in very limited circumstances. Saving the mother's life is one such limited circumstance. Even so, I would not tell that woman or her husband he had to take the child, but neither you nor anyone else has the right to decide for them. It is between the person and God, not anyone else, not any human here on Earth unless the person wishes to have that advice.

Also, it can lead to not being able to give birth anymore.

Yes, IF not performed correctly and in a small number of other cases. No sugery is without risk, but that is one very good reason why this procedure needs to be kept legal, so it can be done safely.

On top of that, most women experiance this "Sinking feeling", even if it takes many years to realize. They notice how aweful abortions are. However, once they realize the grace of God and admit the wrong doings, they themselves can be cured of this disturbing situation. Again, I can tell you that there is no way that a Baby can ever get help with an abortion, because they are dead.

Yes, and in this case the mother would have been dead. You live in fantasy, not reality. Reality is not always nice, it is gritty and sometimes pretty horrible. As for the Bible, many, many biblical scholars, clergy, etc disagree. That is reason enough to keep this decision in the realm of personal choice and not law. There is no mandate, despite what the Roman Catholic church wishes to dictate.

The Roman Catholic Church also claims that the Pope gets to decide who goes to heaven and who does not. I don't give him that authority, either.

I think the nun was pressured from the doctors around, who believed so much that the abortion was the right thing. The main thing is that, in no situation is it ok. I believe strongly that all women who give birth to a baby will recieve the grace of God. It doesn't matter if you were raped, OR if you die while giving birth - at least you are not a) playing God and b) deliberatley killing a person.

You have the right to believe this. You do not have the right to take that belief and expect that everyone else in the world must comply with your personnal belief.

[Timminz]

"Hail Mary's" notwithstanding, of course.

[PLAYER57832]

AND, this type of thing is precisely why so many of us are Protestant and NOT Roman Catholic.

Speak for yourself, I am not Roman Catholic for a few reasons that have nothing to do with abortion.


Like:


Mary worship

Confessing to a priest who then absolves you of your sin (sorry, I can confess to Christ directly and He has the power to forgive not a guy in a white collar)

The churches stance on not really wanting its congregation to read the Bible for themselves


Not that Catholics can't be Christians, they can. I just don't like all the religiosity.

catholics do not worship mary. she is not, nor has ever been considered, part of the godhead. she is venerated and honored, because she said "yes" to god's plan for her even though it could've meant her death. at time, she is referred to as a co-mediatrix, because the choice she made allowed jesus to become incarnate. but at no point does catholic doctrine or dogma hold with worshiping mary.

This is a point of contention between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Roman Catholics are taught to pray to Saints, etc and not directly to God, just as an example. We don't give them that power. But you start getting into technical theological questions. It really doesn't matter. That is, it does to those who want to join either church, etc. However, here, it doesn't really.

the practice of confession stems directly from the admonishment to "confess your sins to one another" in conjunction with the belief that the priest - when serving in his official capacity - is jesus' representative on earth. in the act of reconciliation, it is god that does the forgiving, but the priest that speaks the words so that the penitent can actually hear.

Protestants practice confession as well, but we live the recrimination and judgement up to God. No earthly penalty truly erases anything you do on earth.

perhaps you are also not aware of the church's position on the reading of the bible in a historical context. for most of the church's history, books were not accessible nor could most people read. for that reason, there is a cycle of readings from the bible that spans 3 years. if one attends church faithfully on sundays and holy days of obligation, one will hear the bible in its entirety minus the passages from leviticus outlining old testament kosher law. in the course of the mass, there are two readings - an old testament and a new testament letters - and a selection from the gospel. the psalms are also read during the responsorial psalm reading. all in all, there is quite a lot of direct scripture in the catholic service.

in fact, one of the big distinctions between the Greek church and the latin/Roman church was translation. The Roman church used Latin, not because it was a "dead" language, but because it was the common language,a s opposed to Greek which was the more educated tongue. This was later forgotten, though and Tyndal, etc were burned at the stake for translating the Bible.

That said, Roman Catholic education tends to teach as much or more about Saints, etc than truly covering the Bible.

the church does have an issue with what it sees as problems in translation. for instance, it allowed a translation of acts by the venerable bede as early as the 700s but did not sanction other translations by tyndale and wycliffe later. so it's not the idea that scripture should not be in the vernacular, but that it should be a good translation.

this debate continues. However, yes, the Roman Catholic Church does now allow translation. It it not, however the group that is the current force in translation.

[oddzy]

"Hail Mary's" notwithstanding, of course.

let's look at that.

"hail mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee;" - direct from scripture, the angel gabriel to mary

"blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb," - direct from scripture, elizabeth to mary

"jesus." - the name of the fruit of her womb

"holy mary, mother of god" - the first part seems fairly simple....how could one not be holy when acting as the live ark of the covenant? and if one believes jesus is god, then mother of god is a statement of fact.

"pray for us sinners" - asking others for their prayers is, as far as i know, accepted practice in many denominations

"now, and at the hour of our death" - and the problem with asking for prayers if one believes that the one being entreated is alive in the spirit?

so point out to me where the worship is?

[Timminz]

so point out to me where the worship is?

You didn't just point to a handful of examples yourself?

[Woodruff]

Woodruff and Player,
What about using suction to rip an unborn living baby to pieces would you not consider murder?

That depends on what you're referring to when you say "baby". There seems to be a vast discrepancy in how that particular term is used in the discussions on abortion. What is the exact status of the baby in question?

I was not equating a heartbeat with a spirit entering a body depending on definition at least maybe.

Depending on definition at least maybe? Egad.

I might have been making one or more point having to do with when life begins.

And your point in that regard is?

No to what? Are you arguing that abortions in general would not go down?

Correct. They would not go down in any significant number at all.

People would be more likely to wait until marriage to have sex and be more likely to use condoms and other things maybe.

Almost certainly not. The fact of the matter is that teenagers typically believe that pregnancy "won't happen to them"...they're at the point in life when they believe the odds are all in their favor and there is little to no risk (thanks to abstinence education in significant part, I might add).

Is when spirits enter physical bodies and when heartbeats start irrelevant in discussing when life begins?

When you can prove that spirits enter physical bodies at a given point in time, then that argument will be relevant...until then, it certainly is not. As to the heartbeat, no...I don't personally find that to be relevant. More relevant in my mind are the ability to experience pain and brain activity. Granted, that's only my personal opinion.

The repeat abortion rate in the U.S. has risen rapidly since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. In 1973 it was estimated that only about 12% of the induced abortions were repeat abortions.

The problem with your statistics is that they only refer to abortions that take place in medical facilities which, without legalized abortion, would not be (and wasn't) anywhere near to the reality.

Do you want to compare human life with money regardless of how much tax money you might be asked to pay? What if we should be willing to live under a bridge without a penny if it means saving the life of even a single baby?

If you want to live under a bridge, move to Florida.

And for what it's worth...much like PLAYER, I'm largely anti-abortion and approve of it only in VERY limited circumstances.

[oddzy]

"This is a point of contention between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Roman Catholics are taught to pray to Saints, etc and not directly to God, just as an example. We don't give them that power. But you start getting into technical theological questions. It really doesn't matter. That is, it does to those who want to join either church, etc. However, here, it doesn't really."

that is patently false. we are not taught not to pray to god. it may not matter to you, but it matters to me that you are perpetuating a falsehood. as for praying to saints, i believe part of the divide is that catholics do not look at prayer as our ultimate form of worship. that is the act of transubstantiation and the taking of the eucharist. prayer is thanksgiving and honor.

"Protestants practice confession as well, but we live the recrimination and judgement up to God. No earthly penalty truly erases anything you do on earth."

catholics dont believe anything we do erases sin. that is solely through jesus' sacrifice for us. judgement is the purview of the almighty as well. perhaps you should read the actual words that are spoken during the sacrament of reconciliation because then you would see that the prayers following confession are done after absolution...the absolution is not contingent on them. the absol;
ution is given as the result of the blood of jesus.

"That said, Roman Catholic education tends to teach as much or more about Saints, etc than truly covering the Bible."

that's funny... i had 8 years of catholic education. i abjure that statement as being utterly - again - false. that is what you think, or what one person has told you - probably not even someone who is catholic - and also had a biased ax to grind.

"The Roman Catholic Church also claims that the Pope gets to decide who goes to heaven and who does not. I don't give him that authority, either."

this is a falsehood.

i suggest you read the work by karl keating which explores the history of modern falsehoods systematically bruted about by so-called "bible christians" like tony alamo....say...wasn't he convicted of something? what was that again?

[oddzy]

so point out to me where the worship is?

You didn't just point to a handful of examples yourself?

no. none of that is worship.

[Timminz]

so point out to me where the worship is?

You didn't just point to a handful of examples yourself?

no. none of that is worship.

As the opposite of an expert on worship, I will defer to pretty much anyone on this.

[army of nobunaga]

... I normally avoid the religious argument threads, but I'll chime in here.

... From where do you, Player, draw the connection between abortion and child molestation? The Catholic church turned (/turns) a blind eye to child molestation, so that makes this current incident more henious? I don't follow. The article is making the same false connection.

... As for bashing the Catholics, feel free, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to follow the connection here.

... Also, this woman was "too ill to be moved to an operating room", says the article, yet she was healthy enough to undergo abortion procedures? Something here doesn't add up.

...

+1


CAtholics should be loved and bashed.. they have harmed and carried mankind on their backs at various points in our history.

But in this argument... not sure of the connection. How is someone too ill to move to an operating room? That makes no fing sense to me.

[Woodruff]

... I normally avoid the religious argument threads, but I'll chime in here.

... From where do you, Player, draw the connection between abortion and child molestation? The Catholic church turned (/turns) a blind eye to child molestation, so that makes this current incident more henious? I don't follow. The article is making the same false connection.

... As for bashing the Catholics, feel free, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to follow the connection here.

... Also, this woman was "too ill to be moved to an operating room", says the article, yet she was healthy enough to undergo abortion procedures? Something here doesn't add up.

...

+1

CAtholics should be loved and bashed.. they have harmed and carried mankind on their backs at various points in our history.

But in this argument... not sure of the connection. How is someone too ill to move to an operating room? That makes no fing sense to me.

My medical expertise amounts to watching episodes of M*A*S*H. However, on M*A*S*H this sort of thing did happen from time to time.

[Calidus]

Player, I will respond to your remarks soon, I have to do some things, however I never said I was forcing anyone to believe what I believe I just think that killing someone is different than using medice. God wants us to use medicine to help us, it tells us to use the things on earth for ourselves. I'm not denying that, but I am denying that using medicine is "playing God"...not true at all... these are things that we can use from the earth. God told us to subdue the earth. Killinng someone is not a type of medicine though...that's what I want to make clear. Regardless of how you feel about it, you are still kiliing a life. You don't know if the mother will survive or not, but if you can save the baby you should as from a Catholic stance at least....which brings me to the point. The nun is Catholic right? So if she firmly believes otherwise then she shouldn't be Catholic, so why would she care if she is excommunicated? That is my point...and that is why I wrote that whole thing from before.

I do want to remark on your remarks as well though...they are quite absurd in my opinion...more later.

[jay_a2j]

Edit: At the time I gave my speech it was in the mid 90's and at that time 4,000 abortions were preformed EVERY DAY in the US alone.
"

That data includes things that would not be considered an abortion by most people... but go on believing as you would.

According to you everyone who doesn't share your views is out there advertising for clinics.

You need not defend your beliefs to me, but one greater than I, who's sandals I am unworthy to loose.

On a side note, stop putting words in my mouth, else one can call you a liar.

[army of nobunaga]

... I normally avoid the religious argument threads, but I'll chime in here.

... From where do you, Player, draw the connection between abortion and child molestation? The Catholic church turned (/turns) a blind eye to child molestation, so that makes this current incident more henious? I don't follow. The article is making the same false connection.

... As for bashing the Catholics, feel free, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to follow the connection here.

... Also, this woman was "too ill to be moved to an operating room", says the article, yet she was healthy enough to undergo abortion procedures? Something here doesn't add up.

...

+1

CAtholics should be loved and bashed.. they have harmed and carried mankind on their backs at various points in our history.

But in this argument... not sure of the connection. How is someone too ill to move to an operating room? That makes no fing sense to me.

My medical expertise amounts to watching episodes of M*A*S*H. However, on M*A*S*H this sort of thing did happen from time to time.

you may be right man... honestly my knowledge on emergency medicene is very limited

[PLAYER57832]

"This is a point of contention between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Roman Catholics are taught to pray to Saints, etc and not directly to God, just as an example. We don't give them that power. But you start getting into technical theological questions. It really doesn't matter. That is, it does to those who want to join either church, etc. However, here, it doesn't really."

that is patently false. we are not taught not to pray to god. it may not matter to you, but it matters to me that you are perpetuating a falsehood. as for praying to saints, i believe part of the divide is that catholics do not look at prayer as our ultimate form of worship. that is the act of transubstantiation and the taking of the eucharist. prayer is thanksgiving and honor.

Like I said, Protestants disagree. And a lot of Roman Catholics flatly do pray to God, feeling that parying directly to God is somehow presumptuous. I realize that this is not technically Roman Catholic Doctrine, but it is how it is seem by many followers.

When I said "it doesn't matter" I was not making light of your beliefs. I was saying that the division between Protestants and Roman Catholics is pretty deep and real and is just not going to be resolved here. Also, I never claimed to be an expert. These are things that are sometimes disputes between churches and sometimes within the church. The bit about Mary, for example, is actually central to many in the Mexican Roman Catholic church. There are historical reasons that get somewhat technical. In part, some Roman Catholic missionaries saw substituting their icons for pagan ones as a way to bring the pagans to Christ. I cannot say if that was approved by the Pope of the time or not, but it was what happened. And, it is one reason why the Mexican church was often viewed differently by the Roman Catholic church itself. That gets into technicalities, though that are within the Roman Catholic Church and not things I think I need to discuss here. If you wish to discuss it with other Roman Catholics, fine.

It is enough that we agree we can each worship Christ, love God. We are one body, but different parts. But... we don't have to agree on everything.

I don't in any way dispute the right of Roman Catholics to worhip and believe as they wish. I dispute the right of that church or any other, including my own to lobby Congressmen, and to demand passage of laws that are suitable to them, but not many other Christians.

"Protestants practice confession as well, but we live the recrimination and judgement up to God. No earthly penalty truly erases anything you do on earth."

catholics dont believe anything we do erases sin. that is solely through jesus' sacrifice for us. judgement is the purview of the almighty as well. perhaps you should read the actual words that are spoken during the sacrament of reconciliation because then you would see that the prayers following confession are done after absolution...the absolution is not contingent on them. the absol;
ution is given as the result of the blood of jesus.

Sorry, had this conversation with way to many Roman Catholics. Most Roman Catholics do believe that the forgiveness, as bestowed on them by Priests utterly and completely erases the sin. Protestants belief that sins are forgiven. As for the rest.. its a matter of semantics.

You believe what you believe. I just don't agree on many points.

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"That said, Roman Catholic education tends to teach as much or more about Saints, etc than truly covering the Bible."

that's funny... i had 8 years of catholic education. i abjure that statement as being utterly - again - false. that is what you think, or what one person has told you - probably not even someone who is catholic - and also had a biased ax to grind.

Try again... my family is mostly Roman Catholic. And, I am considering sending my son to Roman Catholic school, so its hardly an esoteric question. I will say this, that not all Roman Catholic schools are equal any more than all parishes are. The teachings where I grew up were more Franciscan. Here they are not. When I quiz people on the Bible or it comes up in discussion, I very often find that I know far more of the Bible than many who attended Roman Catholic schools. They know the liturgy, the saints, pieces of the Bible, but not all of it. I am definitely not an expert.

"
"The Roman Catholic Church also claims that the Pope gets to decide who goes to heaven and who does not. I don't give him that authority, either."

this is a falsehood.

No. Or rather, techinically, you are correct. However, in practice, I am correct. I realize that most Roman Catholics don't look at it the way we do, but it is essentially true... and again, it is one reason why it will be a very long time before the churches meld.

i suggest you read the work by karl keating which explores the history of modern falsehoods systematically bruted about by so-called "bible christians" like tony alamo....say...wasn't he convicted of something? what was that again?

I don't agree with jay on most things. I certainly don't talk of "saving people" from the Roman Catholic church or other idiocies. I recognize it is a Christian Belief system. I disagree on religious grounds, but the problem I have is not that disagreement. The problem I have is the church's recent and increasing propensity to meddle in politics. I say the same of some of the evangelical leaders, its just this article was about a Roman Catholic.

And yes, I do see that areticle as a prime example of Roman Catholic hypocrisy.