Nun agrees to save woman's life, is excommunicated

[Calidus]

Who are you saying is judging other people?

[jay_a2j]

Player just so you know, Christ's teachings are not the only teachings in scripture. Scripture DOES address homosexuality and abortion. You now state that you are against both? Really? You really need to go back and read your countless posts that ally yourself with homosexuality. While you're at it re-examine your posts on abortion. Are you bi-polar? Something is definitely wrong in your mental process. Do me a favor, being that this is my final post addressed to you, do not respond to my posts. (I won't see them) You go on with your faith, and continue to lead people astray, that is your choice.

The problem is clearly that you need to learn how to read. PLAYER's position has never been that she is in favor of abortion with the exception of extremely limited circumstances. She is personally anti-abortion. However, she believes that it is not her place to dictate her morals onto other people by rule of law.

Don't give me that cop-out! "I'm personally against it but I can't tell others how to live their lives." CRAP. You either support or are against an issue. If you are against an issue you DO NOT make statements in support of it.(as she so often does) If a co-worker tells me he is going home to commit suicide, rape his wife or molest his child it is MY obligation to do something! I can't say, "Well, I don't believe in those things but to each their own." We, as Christians, are not to stand in the way of sinners. But we are not called to encourage sin. It's one thing to remain silent on issues and another thing to be an advocate for them. Look at all the Christians who post responding to her. Most post in opposition. But it is we, who are in the minority.

[AndyDufresne]

Damned right. No middle grounds. There are no middle grounds in life. You either like bananas, or you don't. You either support death for everyone, or life for everyone. You either support locking every single person up, because everyone has the potential to commit a crime, or letting all criminals run free.

Middle grounds are for sissies, and wimps, and fools.

I'm probably a sissy, a wimp, and a fool.


--Andy

[Calidus]

That was kinda Ironic, I was going to make a post that comes from a website that I believe the Catholic Church supports. It talks about the two types of sin that the Catholic Church believes in. http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

When I came back I see a post about the "middle ground", I felt this was Ironic because I just read about a sort of middle ground. The website talks about grave sins which are mortal sins and venial sins. I think venial sins are similar to what Jay was talking about. Ignoring the issue and watching someone sin is a sin itself, but just not as grave.

Now, for Player:

I have found this to basaically show you the stance of the Catholic Church. Again this is from the above website:

Abortion—Human life begins at conception in the mother’s womb. For God tells us, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew thee, and before you were born I consecrated you" (Jeremiah 1:5). Abortion is therefore murder. The oldest Christian book (besides parts of the Bible) is the Didache, a book composed by the twelve apostles or their disciples. The Didache proclaims the ancient teaching of the Catholic Church, "You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish" (Didache 2,2). All Catholics who procure a completed abortion or participate in execution of an abortion are automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church (CCC 2272 and CIC Canon 1314).

The CCC is the Catechism of the Catholic Church and basically takes everything in the Bible and translates it to what Chatholics believe. This book is a good tool to explain the beliefs of the Catholic Church to others. As a Catholic I think that their are at least two books I should read before I die. One, the Bible (and the first). Two, the Catechism.

So you see, to explain the nuns situation, I will say this:

You would agree that she participated in the execution of an abortion? Well if so then she is "automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church". The main thing here is that REGARDLESS of what people think, she KNEW the stance of the Catholic church -being a nun and all, and also KNEW the outcome of her actions. This tells me that she basically disagrees with what the Catholic Church says on the issue. So -in my opinion- as I said before, IF she disagrees even though she knew the outcome, THEN she probably could care less about being excommunicated...she knew that would happen.
Outsiders look at this and are apalled, but if you take a closer look you realize hey wait a minute...she is a Nun. So when she signed up to be a Nun she must have known exactly what the church believes don't you agree?

[jay_a2j]

Damned right. No middle grounds. There are no middle grounds in life. You either like bananas, or you don't. You either support death for everyone, or life for everyone. You either support locking every single person up, because everyone has the potential to commit a crime, or letting all criminals run free.

Middle grounds are for sissies, and wimps, and fools.

I'm probably a sissy, a wimp, and a fool.


--Andy

You either like bananas or you don't. Makes sense. I have a coffee mug that says: Tolerance: the virtue of a man without convictions

Yeah, you either are a person of strong convictions or you go into politics.

[Calidus]

I also want people to realize what it means exactly to be excommunicated by the Catholic Church. The website http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm
explains everything you need to know , I will say this though:
Basically in the Nun's case, it deprives her from being a Nun, and she is not allowed to partake in any other helpful roles in the Church...I will explain what I mean by that in a second. She is still allowed to go to Church..."The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced"... but can't recieve the sacrements, one being communion. So given that, an example of a "helpful role" would be an altar server.

However, the Church says she can make up for this. Quoting the website..."Apart from the rare cases in which excommunication is imposed for a fixed period and then ceases of itself, it is always removed by [url]absolution[/url]."

Absolution, is basically when you go to the priest to confess your sins, and then -I would assume for this case- show evidence that you are following the grace and glory of God. You are showing that you are changing, and honestly admitting your wrong doing.

I posted this to say that the Church will never completely see one as an outcast. Confession is a major part of the Church. Even the Pope goes to confession several times a week.

[PLAYER57832]

I have found this to basaically show you the stance of the Catholic Church. Again this is from the above website:

I understand the view of the Roman Catholic church. I just disagree.

You would agree that she participated in the execution of an abortion?

No, I don't. If the article is correct, the nun acted to save the woman's life. She fully believed it was consistant with church doctrine. Now, I assume that as a nun, she is not exactly ignorant of the church doctrine. Being stationed in a hospital, she is almost certainly more knowledgeable than most. So, she made a decision she fully believed was correct, but maybe she erred.

For this error, this error about which she thought carefully, and one that I happen to know (for reasons I won't even get into) is would NOT universally be considered an error, (at least would not have been under Pope John Paul) she ws flat out excommunicated. For making a judgement error in good faith, she gets the heaviest penalty possible for a nun.

The priests.. they did something no one could in any way possibly justify. What did they get for their very gross transgression? They got shifted to other parishes, sometimes had to undergo counseling, sometimes not even that. WORSE, the Roman Catholic church did absolutely nothing to help the many children it fully knew were being harmed.

So, for them to claim this is about "caring for children" is simply obnoxious and hypocritical in the utmost.

Well if so then she is "automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church". The main thing here is that REGARDLESS of what people think, she KNEW the stance of the Catholic church -being a nun and all, and also KNEW the outcome of her actions. This tells me that she basically disagrees with what the Catholic Church says on the issue. So -in my opinion- as I said before, IF she disagrees even though she knew the outcome, THEN she probably could care less about being excommunicated...she knew that would happen.
Outsiders look at this and are apalled, but if you take a closer look you realize hey wait a minute...she is a Nun. So when she signed up to be a Nun she must have known exactly what the church believes don't you agree?

Where I agree is that she got caught up in the Roman Catholic church's need to make this a political issue and their refusal to view any aspect of this issue with compassion.. THAT is what I understand.

I am appalled by the treatment of the nun. I am appalled at the treatment of the priest and the many children they harmed. I am mostly apalled that this church, this church that acts in such an extremely hypocritical manner somehow feels it has enough moral high ground to dictate to everyone else in the world..be they other believing Christians or not, how to behave.

[PLAYER57832]

I also want people to realize what it means exactly to be excommunicated by the Catholic Church. The website http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm
explains everything you need to know , I will say this though:
Basically in the Nun's case, it deprives her from being a Nun, and she is not allowed to partake in any other helpful roles in the Church...I will explain what I mean by that in a second. She is still allowed to go to Church..."The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced"... but can't recieve the sacrements, one being communion. So given that, an example of a "helpful role" would be an altar server.

However, the Church says she can make up for this. Quoting the website..."Apart from the rare cases in which excommunication is imposed for a fixed period and then ceases of itself, it is always removed by [url]absolution[/url]."

Absolution, is basically when you go to the priest to confess your sins, and then -I would assume for this case- show evidence that you are following the grace and glory of God. You are showing that you are changing, and honestly admitting your wrong doing.

I posted this to say that the Church will never completely see one as an outcast. Confession is a major part of the Church. Even the Pope goes to confession several times a week.

We went through this discussion when the current Pope excused a former Nazis. Most of us are now familiar with the niceties of excommunication and redemption.

[Calidus]

As a Nun you need to know the stance of the Catholic Church. I don't know the exact process, partly because I'm male, but I could take an educated guess that it takes a bit of time before you just become a Nun right? During this time if you didn't already know of certain views by the church, you should know them before the actual becoming of a Nun. So, all of this...

"For this error, this error about which she thought carefully, and one that I happen to know (for reasons I won't even get into) is would NOT universally be considered an error, (at least would not have been under Pope John Paul) she ws flat out excommunicated. For making a judgement error in good faith, she gets the heaviest penalty possible for a nun."

... is nothing. If you are strong with your faith, you need to know what you are getting into. As for the "heaviest penalty possible for a nun"...she can still recieve Absolution...talked about in my second response post.

You go on and on about how apalled you are at the church for what happened (In the second half of your post) yet your missing the point I'm trying to make. Again, regardless what you believe, if she knows the outcome of her actions and still partakes in them, she will get the consequences that go with her actions.

It's like saying ... I know that in Baseball, if I hit the ball and someone catches it (even in foul territory) then I also know that I am out. So I go up to bat, and the above happens...I'm not going to be "apalled" for recieving the 'out' call. I will be mad at myself maybe, but I'm not apalled. However I can still make up for what I did by hitting a home run in the 9th .

The church wants her to get Absolution for what she did, which is a good thing right?

[PLAYER57832]

As a Nun you need to know the stance of the Catholic Church. I don't know the exact process, partly because I'm male, but I could take an educated guess that it takes a bit of time before you just become a Nun right? During this time if you didn't already know of certain views by the church, you should know them before the actual becoming of a Nun. So, all of this...

Well, actually I do know more than a tad, but it is not all that relevant, except that I am sure this nun did more than a cursory study. Also, It varies a great deal depending on the order.

"For this error, this error about which she thought carefully, and one that I happen to know (for reasons I won't even get into) is would NOT universally be considered an error, (at least would not have been under Pope John Paul) she ws flat out excommunicated. For making a judgement error in good faith, she gets the heaviest penalty possible for a nun."

... is nothing. If you are strong with your faith, you need to know what you are getting into. As for the "heaviest penalty possible for a nun"...she can still recieve Absolution...talked about in my second response post.

Absolution is irrelevant. The question is whether she should have recieved that penalty. What it really gets down to is that priests are given a certain latitude, are understood to be very capable of studying and making decisions about the Bible. Nuns are essentially not, not in any where near the same way Priests are. The reference often used is of a marriage. The nuns are "married" to Christ (in a sense). In a practical sense, given that Priests are seen as human, well spiratual "examples". That is not the correct word, but it is given to them, through the hierarchy to be the ones able to put forward Christ's message, up to the ultimate, the Pope who is, essentially, the spiritual descendent of Christ. Nuns are below that. It was not that her crime was truly greater, it was that she was female and the clergy were male. And, that is exactly part of why I find it so abhorrant.

You go on and on about how apalled you are at the church for what happened (In the second half of your post) yet your missing the point I'm trying to make. Again, regardless what you believe, if she knows the outcome of her actions and still partakes in them, she will get the consequences that go with her actions.

I am not convinced that is true. I believe she is part of a debate currently happening within the church. And, because she is female, made a ready target. I don't believe the action was appropriate because I don't believe the Bishop really was acting from pure motive. I believe he acted from personnal affront that this nun would dare to even come close to challenging him. There were many, many ways he could have dealt with this short of excommunication that would have made the issue perfectly clear to all. No, his choice of excomminication was a very specific statement.

It's like saying ... I know that in Baseball, if I hit the ball and someone catches it (even in foul territory) then I also know that I am out. So I go up to bat, and the above happens...I'm not going to be "apalled" for recieving the 'out' call. I will be mad at myself maybe, but I'm not apalled. However I can still make up for what I did by hitting a home run in the 9th .

The church wants her to get Absolution for what she did, which is a good thing right?

For her to get true absolution, she would have to admit that what she did was wrong. If she truly does not believe she did wrong, then that is not possible.

See, that is why it was beyond OK for the Bishop to take this particular step, and is why he did it. This is not about making his position clear. This is about control. This nun "erred" by making a decision he did not like, so no matter her reasons no matter anything, he excommunicated here. Note that I am not the only one who thinks this was a bit much. Many within the Roman Catholic hierarchy feel the same. I doubt this current Pope will absolve her. I suspect that Pope John Paul would, perhaps not have outright overruled the Bishop (for technical reasons), but would have taken steps for her.

[Lionz]

Player,

What is there from you to me that you claim I haven't read?

Brains might basically be body control panels for spirits. What do they have to do with whether or not someone is living if we can think away from physical bodies as spirits? Consider this?

http://english.pravda.ru/society/2003/03/26/45101.html

Maybe you should ask yourself who Shem and Ham and Japheth and others had children with and then ask yourself what a child being the product of incest would have to do with whether or not they would be worthy of life.

You just claimed you found ALMOST all of those plain repugnant referring to abortions done as a form of birth control maybe. Can you help me understand how there could be an abortion done as a form of birth control and it not be plain repugnant to you if that could occur somehow?

Woodruff,

I mean life in general maybe.

You once again respond to the same two questions like they were originally written for you? I re-mentioned the questions as a result of me trying to figure out what about them implies to you that I was equating heartbeats with spirits entering bodies maybe. The first refers to conception points and the second refers time weeks into development.

How about you simply don't reply to a question directed at Player like it's directed at you? It might help avoid confusion. What do you want proof for though? I'm not sure if there's a way to scientifically prove that spirits exist maybe, but have bodies not died and immediately lost weight?

http://historicmysteries.com/events/the ... oul-theory

You've addressed questions not originally for you like they are for you and yet have avoided addressing some questions actually directed at you?

I know little to nothing about Chick tracts maybe.

[PLAYER57832]

Lionz, when you keep posting the same exact questions or extremely close variations over and over and over, as you did in the evolution thread, then it is clear you either are not reading or not paying attention to what you read. I gave you plenty of chance for honest discourse and you never responded honestly.

[Woodruff]

Player just so you know, Christ's teachings are not the only teachings in scripture. Scripture DOES address homosexuality and abortion. You now state that you are against both? Really? You really need to go back and read your countless posts that ally yourself with homosexuality. While you're at it re-examine your posts on abortion. Are you bi-polar? Something is definitely wrong in your mental process. Do me a favor, being that this is my final post addressed to you, do not respond to my posts. (I won't see them) You go on with your faith, and continue to lead people astray, that is your choice.

The problem is clearly that you need to learn how to read. PLAYER's position has never been that she is in favor of abortion with the exception of extremely limited circumstances. She is personally anti-abortion. However, she believes that it is not her place to dictate her morals onto other people by rule of law.

Don't give me that cop-out! "I'm personally against it but I can't tell others how to live their lives."

Cop-out? That's not a cop-out...it's called freedom...independence. We're not all drones in a hive-mind.

You either support or are against an issue.

And as she has clearly stated (as have I), she is against abortion. It's not hard to figure out.

If you are against an issue you DO NOT make statements in support of it.(as she so often does)

No she doesn't. She makes statements in support of individual rights to act on their own.

If a co-worker tells me he is going home to commit suicide, rape his wife or molest his child it is MY obligation to do something!

Absolutely on the last two, not so much on the first one. However, given that those last two are CRIMES and abortion is NOT A CRIME, they cannot be compared. Given that the first one is an individual judgement call, that is an appropriate comparison and many people would disagree with you that you have an obligation to act.

We, as Christians, are not to stand in the way of sinners. But we are not called to encourage sin.

PLAYER isn't encouraging abortion. In fact, she is doing exactly as you say..."not standing in the way of sinners"...that's precisely what she is doing.

It's one thing to remain silent on issues and another thing to be an advocate for them.

PLAYER is absolutely not an advocate for abortion. She has made that painfully clear to anyone capable of reading her words and comprehending them.

I have a coffee mug that says: Tolerance: the virtue of a man without convictions

While I am not at all surprised at this, all it really does is prove that, just as with so many other things, you really don't understand what tolerance is.

[Woodruff]

As a Nun you need to know the stance of the Catholic Church. I don't know the exact process, partly because I'm male, but I could take an educated guess that it takes a bit of time before you just become a Nun right? During this time if you didn't already know of certain views by the church, you should know them before the actual becoming of a Nun. So, all of this...

"For this error, this error about which she thought carefully, and one that I happen to know (for reasons I won't even get into) is would NOT universally be considered an error, (at least would not have been under Pope John Paul) she ws flat out excommunicated. For making a judgement error in good faith, she gets the heaviest penalty possible for a nun."

... is nothing. If you are strong with your faith, you need to know what you are getting into. As for the "heaviest penalty possible for a nun"...she can still recieve Absolution...talked about in my second response post.

You go on and on about how apalled you are at the church for what happened (In the second half of your post) yet your missing the point I'm trying to make. Again, regardless what you believe, if she knows the outcome of her actions and still partakes in them, she will get the consequences that go with her actions.

It's like saying ... I know that in Baseball, if I hit the ball and someone catches it (even in foul territory) then I also know that I am out. So I go up to bat, and the above happens...I'm not going to be "apalled" for recieving the 'out' call. I will be mad at myself maybe, but I'm not apalled. However I can still make up for what I did by hitting a home run in the 9th .

The one thing I will say about this is...even though I do disagree with the Church's ruling here, the nun HAD to know it was coming. As Calidus says, as a nun it is her responsibility to know the likely reactions to her actions. I don't like it...but she almost certainly took the action she did knowing what the response would be and accepted that likelihood.

I certainly DO agree that if that step is taken with the nun, it is inexcusable that the same step not be taken in regards to paedophilic priests.

[Woodruff]

Woodruff,
I mean life in general maybe.

I tell you what...when you figure out FOR SURE, let me know and we can MAYBE have a discussion on the subject.

You once again respond to the same two questions like they were originally written for you? How about you simply don't reply to a question directed at Player like it's directed at you? It might help avoid confusion.

You posted them in a public forum - you should expect that the public might respond.

You've addressed questions not originally for you like they are for you and yet have avoided addressing some questions actually directed at you?

If you could post with a bit more clarity, I would have a chance at understanding what those questions actually were.

I know little to nothing about Chick tracts maybe.

That's a definite plus in your favor maybe.

[oddzy]

As a Nun you need to know the stance of the Catholic Church. I don't know the exact process, partly because I'm male, but I could take an educated guess that it takes a bit of time before you just become a Nun right? During this time if you didn't already know of certain views by the church, you should know them before the actual becoming of a Nun. So, all of this...

"For this error, this error about which she thought carefully, and one that I happen to know (for reasons I won't even get into) is would NOT universally be considered an error, (at least would not have been under Pope John Paul) she ws flat out excommunicated. For making a judgement error in good faith, she gets the heaviest penalty possible for a nun."

... is nothing. If you are strong with your faith, you need to know what you are getting into. As for the "heaviest penalty possible for a nun"...she can still recieve Absolution...talked about in my second response post.

You go on and on about how apalled you are at the church for what happened (In the second half of your post) yet your missing the point I'm trying to make. Again, regardless what you believe, if she knows the outcome of her actions and still partakes in them, she will get the consequences that go with her actions.

It's like saying ... I know that in Baseball, if I hit the ball and someone catches it (even in foul territory) then I also know that I am out. So I go up to bat, and the above happens...I'm not going to be "apalled" for recieving the 'out' call. I will be mad at myself maybe, but I'm not apalled. However I can still make up for what I did by hitting a home run in the 9th .

The one thing I will say about this is...even though I do disagree with the Church's ruling here, the nun HAD to know it was coming. As Calidus says, as a nun it is her responsibility to know the likely reactions to her actions. I don't like it...but she almost certainly took the action she did knowing what the response would be and accepted that likelihood.

I certainly DO agree that if that step is taken with the nun, it is inexcusable that the same step not be taken in regards to paedophilic priests.

from a civil standpoint, i believe some forms of child sexual abuse deserve the death penalty.

that being said, i am guessing - and i don't know this for sure - that the church views what the nun did as tantamount to participating in a murder. murder, even in our judicial system, rates a higher penalty than sexual abuse, so it's not just the catholic church that has a disparity in penalties.

[Lionz]

Player,

It's fine if you're not comfortable answering questions from me maybe, but is there a single question from me in here that you've answered? And where in any forum topic have I asked you something that you had already answered?

[PLAYER57832]

Player,

It's fine if you're not comfortable answering questions from me maybe, but is there a single question from me in here that you've answered? And where in any forum topic have I asked you something that you had already answered?

Many times, but obviously, not knowing that tends to be evidence that you have not read most of my answers.

[Lionz]

Where in here have you answered a question from me not counting there?

Also, we might have got off on a bad foot. What do I know? Maybe little to nothing. How about we try to have love for one another even if we disagree on some stuff?