Egypt Vidz

[Phatscotty]

okay okay okay we are caught up re-decypher and it's all good.

[Symmetry]

Sure- no idea about the Tea Party stuff. The same people? Who? But anyway- that's beside the point.

Your main criticism seems to be that there were mixed messages from various diplomats, and that there should be changes. I'm still unclear on what should have been done differently, or what different diplomats would have done, and how that would have affected anything. Is the main concern here PR?

If it is, then Mubarak was supported by the US for 30 years I think. I would suspect that Egyptians would be more pissed off about that than any diplomats appointed by Obama in the last two.

[Phatscotty]

These aren't the droids you're looking for

CBS News reporter Lara Logan endured 'brutal and sustained sex assault' in Egypt

[Phatscotty]

Sure- no idea about the Tea Party stuff. The same people? Who? But anyway- that's beside the point.

Your main criticism seems to be that there were mixed messages from various diplomats, and that there should be changes. I'm still unclear on what should have been done differently, or what different diplomats would have done, and how that would have affected anything. Is the main concern here PR?

If it is, then Mubarak was supported by the US for 30 years I think. I would suspect that Egyptians would be more pissed off about that than any diplomats appointed by Obama in the last two.

That why we should be electing experienced people, instead of trying to "make history". There is nothing I can say or do to change what happened. About the only thing we did was send diplomats and make statements, given you admit both were botched, I gotta ask what exactly did he do that was so good? The best thing I think Obama could have done was kept his mouth shut. This is a total Bush moment here.

If you want to know what I really think, I think we could bring it all the way back to 1970 and I would make a case there about why we should not prop up Mubarek, er like, sticking to the constitution or something. This short term question of would could a political figure do in a window of 2 days to change anything...I'm just not concerned with it. That isn't the point. The point is, the things he did do, is looking like a foreign policy disaster.

[Symmetry]

Sure- no idea about the Tea Party stuff. The same people? Who? But anyway- that's beside the point.

Your main criticism seems to be that there were mixed messages from various diplomats, and that there should be changes. I'm still unclear on what should have been done differently, or what different diplomats would have done, and how that would have affected anything. Is the main concern here PR?

If it is, then Mubarak was supported by the US for 30 years I think. I would suspect that Egyptians would be more pissed off about that than any diplomats appointed by Obama in the last two.

That why we should be electing experienced people, instead of trying to "make history". There is nothing I can say or do to change what happened. About the only thing we did was send diplomats and make statements, given you admit both were botched, I gotta ask what exactly did he do that was so good?

If you want to know what I really think, I think we could bring it all the way back to 1970 and I would make a case there about why we should not prop up Mubarek, er like, sticking to the constitution or something. This short term question of would could a political figure do in a window of 2 days to change anything...I'm just not concerned with it. That isn't the point. The point is, the things he did do, is looking like a foreign policy disaster.

I'm finding it really hard to understand your point. I think that the non-intervention was probably a good strategy, and the warnings to the military about removal of aid also may have helped. The general message was confused, but I don't think it affected anything, and I certainly can't see any other leader in the US or abroad who really got it perfect. The rhetoric of "Obama blew it" and "looking like a foreign policy disaster" seems way off to me.

[Phatscotty]

Sure- no idea about the Tea Party stuff. The same people? Who? But anyway- that's beside the point.

Your main criticism seems to be that there were mixed messages from various diplomats, and that there should be changes. I'm still unclear on what should have been done differently, or what different diplomats would have done, and how that would have affected anything. Is the main concern here PR?

If it is, then Mubarak was supported by the US for 30 years I think. I would suspect that Egyptians would be more pissed off about that than any diplomats appointed by Obama in the last two.

That why we should be electing experienced people, instead of trying to "make history". There is nothing I can say or do to change what happened. About the only thing we did was send diplomats and make statements, given you admit both were botched, I gotta ask what exactly did he do that was so good?

If you want to know what I really think, I think we could bring it all the way back to 1970 and I would make a case there about why we should not prop up Mubarek, er like, sticking to the constitution or something. This short term question of would could a political figure do in a window of 2 days to change anything...I'm just not concerned with it. That isn't the point. The point is, the things he did do, is looking like a foreign policy disaster.

I'm finding it really hard to understand your point. I think that the non-intervention was probably a good strategy, and the warnings to the military about removal of aid also may have helped. The general message was confused, but I don't think it affected anything, and I certainly can't see any other leader in the US or abroad who really got it perfect. The rhetoric of "Obama blew it" and "looking like a foreign policy disaster" seems way off to me.

I just don't think there is anything Obama could do, short of sending in the troops or something like Woody says I want to do!? A lot of this won't make sense because in order to understand the Constitution, we have to unlearn what we have learned. It seems like everything is unconstitutional lately. Bottom line, I think we should not intervene and should not have in the first place, and Obama made a mistake with his conflicting comments, and not making sure Hillary was on the same page, or vice versa, and doing a better job selling the lie that he sent that one guy over there with a direct message, and he just disobeyed orders and said that we need Mubarek to stay.

Have you watched the video at all?

[Symmetry]

Sure- no idea about the Tea Party stuff. The same people? Who? But anyway- that's beside the point.

Your main criticism seems to be that there were mixed messages from various diplomats, and that there should be changes. I'm still unclear on what should have been done differently, or what different diplomats would have done, and how that would have affected anything. Is the main concern here PR?

If it is, then Mubarak was supported by the US for 30 years I think. I would suspect that Egyptians would be more pissed off about that than any diplomats appointed by Obama in the last two.

That why we should be electing experienced people, instead of trying to "make history". There is nothing I can say or do to change what happened. About the only thing we did was send diplomats and make statements, given you admit both were botched, I gotta ask what exactly did he do that was so good?

If you want to know what I really think, I think we could bring it all the way back to 1970 and I would make a case there about why we should not prop up Mubarek, er like, sticking to the constitution or something. This short term question of would could a political figure do in a window of 2 days to change anything...I'm just not concerned with it. That isn't the point. The point is, the things he did do, is looking like a foreign policy disaster.

I'm finding it really hard to understand your point. I think that the non-intervention was probably a good strategy, and the warnings to the military about removal of aid also may have helped. The general message was confused, but I don't think it affected anything, and I certainly can't see any other leader in the US or abroad who really got it perfect. The rhetoric of "Obama blew it" and "looking like a foreign policy disaster" seems way off to me.

I just don't think there is anything Obama could do, short of sending in the troops or something like Woody says I want to do!? A lot of this won't make sense because in order to understand the Constitution, we have to unlearn what we have learned. It seems like everything is unconstitutional lately. Bottom line, I think we should not intervene and should not have in the first place, and Obama made a mistake with his conflicting comments, and not making sure Hillary was on the same page, or vice versa, and doing a better job selling the lie that he sent that one guy over there with a direct message, and he just disobeyed orders and said that we need Mubarek to stay.

Have you watched the video at all?

This seems to be a much clearer statement of your position, and I hope you appreciate that it's a bit away from what your original posts seemed to be saying, which is where Woody drew his questions from. The linking of violent incidents to Obama blowing it.

You've posted a lot of videos- some I've seen. Which one are you referring to?

[Woodruff]

Video of fierce Egypt clashes
More video of Tahrir Square chaos as stones fly, gunshots heard in Cairo
Camels & horses storm into Tahrir Square as protesters clash in Cairo
Egypt Cairo Firebombs Battle of Al Tahrir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDeNPJvzjqw A clip from MSNBC this morning, where the host tries to paint a picture of extreme peace in Egypt and gets called out on it. It's almost like De Ja Vu. NEW!!!
vehicle runs over protesters
Demonstrator Shot in Egypt Outside Cairo
Rock Throwing Continues in Tahrir Square During 2nd Day of Clashes

Obama blew it? You wanted him to invade? Or you believe Mubarak would have stepped down nicely if Obama had just asked?

would you mind watching the video of the guy making the case that Obama blew it and then try dealing with those rather than saying I think Obama should invade Egypt?
geez

I didn't say any such thing. I asked you a couple of questions. Questions you roundly ignored, I should point out. Geez, indeed.

I just don't think there is anything Obama could do, short of sending in the troops or something like Woody says I want to do!?

I said no such thing. Stop trying to play the victim card, as it only makes you look like you can't read.

[Phatscotty]

Sure- no idea about the Tea Party stuff. The same people? Who? But anyway- that's beside the point.

Your main criticism seems to be that there were mixed messages from various diplomats, and that there should be changes. I'm still unclear on what should have been done differently, or what different diplomats would have done, and how that would have affected anything. Is the main concern here PR?

If it is, then Mubarak was supported by the US for 30 years I think. I would suspect that Egyptians would be more pissed off about that than any diplomats appointed by Obama in the last two.

That why we should be electing experienced people, instead of trying to "make history". There is nothing I can say or do to change what happened. About the only thing we did was send diplomats and make statements, given you admit both were botched, I gotta ask what exactly did he do that was so good?

If you want to know what I really think, I think we could bring it all the way back to 1970 and I would make a case there about why we should not prop up Mubarek, er like, sticking to the constitution or something. This short term question of would could a political figure do in a window of 2 days to change anything...I'm just not concerned with it. That isn't the point. The point is, the things he did do, is looking like a foreign policy disaster.

I'm finding it really hard to understand your point. I think that the non-intervention was probably a good strategy, and the warnings to the military about removal of aid also may have helped. The general message was confused, but I don't think it affected anything, and I certainly can't see any other leader in the US or abroad who really got it perfect. The rhetoric of "Obama blew it" and "looking like a foreign policy disaster" seems way off to me.

I just don't think there is anything Obama could do, short of sending in the troops or something like Woody says I want to do!? A lot of this won't make sense because in order to understand the Constitution, we have to unlearn what we have learned. It seems like everything is unconstitutional lately. Bottom line, I think we should not intervene and should not have in the first place, and Obama made a mistake with his conflicting comments, and not making sure Hillary was on the same page, or vice versa, and doing a better job selling the lie that he sent that one guy over there with a direct message, and he just disobeyed orders and said that we need Mubarek to stay.

Have you watched the video at all?

This seems to be a much clearer statement of your position, and I hope you appreciate that it's a bit away from what your original posts seemed to be saying, which is where Woody drew his questions from. The linking of violent incidents to Obama blowing it.

You've posted a lot of videos- some I've seen. Which one are you referring to?

you would be punctillius in assuming that. main reason, I didnt want to start a new thread.

the one that says new on page 1

[Phatscotty]

Video of fierce Egypt clashes
More video of Tahrir Square chaos as stones fly, gunshots heard in Cairo
Camels & horses storm into Tahrir Square as protesters clash in Cairo
Egypt Cairo Firebombs Battle of Al Tahrir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDeNPJvzjqw A clip from MSNBC this morning, where the host tries to paint a picture of extreme peace in Egypt and gets called out on it. It's almost like De Ja Vu. NEW!!!
vehicle runs over protesters
Demonstrator Shot in Egypt Outside Cairo
Rock Throwing Continues in Tahrir Square During 2nd Day of Clashes

Obama blew it? You wanted him to invade? Or you believe Mubarak would have stepped down nicely if Obama had just asked?

would you mind watching the video of the guy making the case that Obama blew it and then try dealing with those rather than saying I think Obama should invade Egypt?
geez

I didn't say any such thing. I asked you a couple of questions. Questions you roundly ignored, I should point out. Geez, indeed.

I just don't think there is anything Obama could do, short of sending in the troops or something like Woody says I want to do!?

I said no such thing. Stop trying to play the victim card, as it only makes you look like you can't read.

Watch the video. Are those real questions? fine. No I didn't want Obama to invade. No I don't think Mubarek would have stepped down nicely if Obama asked.

What does any of that have to do with Obama giving conflicting statements and poorly managing his diplomats?

[Aradhus]

What would be different in egypt, if he hadn't given conflicting statements or poorly managed his diplomats?

[Fischer08]

What would be different in egypt, if he hadn't given conflicting statements or poorly managed his diplomats?

He dropped the ball. I guess we'll never know

[Woodruff]

Video of fierce Egypt clashes
More video of Tahrir Square chaos as stones fly, gunshots heard in Cairo
Camels & horses storm into Tahrir Square as protesters clash in Cairo
Egypt Cairo Firebombs Battle of Al Tahrir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDeNPJvzjqw A clip from MSNBC this morning, where the host tries to paint a picture of extreme peace in Egypt and gets called out on it. It's almost like De Ja Vu. NEW!!!
vehicle runs over protesters
Demonstrator Shot in Egypt Outside Cairo
Rock Throwing Continues in Tahrir Square During 2nd Day of Clashes

Obama blew it? You wanted him to invade? Or you believe Mubarak would have stepped down nicely if Obama had just asked?

would you mind watching the video of the guy making the case that Obama blew it and then try dealing with those rather than saying I think Obama should invade Egypt?
geez

I didn't say any such thing. I asked you a couple of questions. Questions you roundly ignored, I should point out. Geez, indeed.

I just don't think there is anything Obama could do, short of sending in the troops or something like Woody says I want to do!?

I said no such thing. Stop trying to play the victim card, as it only makes you look like you can't read.

Watch the video. Are those real questions? fine. No I didn't want Obama to invade. No I don't think Mubarek would have stepped down nicely if Obama asked.

What does any of that have to do with Obama giving conflicting statements and poorly managing his diplomats?

If it would have had zero effect (and I'm pretty sure we all agree that is the case), then he didn't "blow it" as you attempted to imply. He may have managed it poorly, but IT DIDN'T MATTER.

[Phatscotty]

he gets an F, but it doesn't matter though. Right.

Does it really matter if a student gets an F on a test? It's not like anything happened because of it...

[Woodruff]

he gets an F, but it doesn't matter though. Right.
Does it really matter if a student gets an F on a test? It's not like anything happened because of it...

You have a pretty difficult time with that whole objectivity thing, don't you?

Then again, you're dishonest enough to change the title of the thread because you've now realized how bad it made you look.

[Baron Von PWN]

he gets an F, but it doesn't matter though. Right.

Does it really matter if a student gets an F on a test? It's not like anything happened because of it...

This is by no means an "F" performance. For that to be the case he would have had to do something ridiculous like invade or some other nonsense of that magnitude.

[Phatscotty]

he gets an F, but it doesn't matter though. Right.
Does it really matter if a student gets an F on a test? It's not like anything happened because of it...

You have a pretty difficult time with that whole objectivity thing, don't you?

Then again, you're dishonest enough to change the title of the thread because you've now realized how bad it made you look.

Obama failed. Nothing you say against me can change that.

That isn't why I changed the name, I stick to that 100%, just moving on seeing nobody has anything real to say.

P.S. for the record, I do not think Obama should invade Egypt.

[patches70]

and doing a better job selling the lie that he sent that one guy over there with a direct message, and he just disobeyed orders and said that we need Mubarek to stay.

That "guy" we sent over there, his name is Frank Wisner. Now, people who are familiar with Mr Wisner, and his father, know that this is not a "pro-democracy" guy. The Wisner's are experts on engineering coups. CIA guys. People don't realize this very often, but in organizations like the CIA, it indeed turns into a family affair. Sons follow in their father's footsteps and what not.

Anyway, Frank Sr. was the guy who started up "Operation Mockingbird", propaganda program for us little ole unwashed masses. Gets us believing the reasons why it is a good idea that ole America should go out and put into place our own little dictators all around the world.
Frank Sr. is the guy who helped get the Shah in power in Iran.
Frank Sr. is the guy who ousted the Guatemalan President and replaced him with a military junta in 1954 or so.
In 1965, Frank Sr. had a mental breakdown and blew his own brains out with a shotgun, one of his own son's shotguns no less.

Frank Jr. is CIA as well, except his "official" posting in the State Department. The Wisner's are not very big on democracy, which is probably why he called for Mubarak to not resign. However, I am willing to go so far as to say he advised the Egyptian military to take power themselves.

Frank Jr. was also on the board of directors for a company most of you have heard about. Enron.

No, the Wisner's are not one's you send if you wish to promote democracy.

It is no wonder that Obama administration disavowed him after sending him as an envoy. Yet another example of how out of the loop and devoid of reality this current administration is.

[Phatscotty]

More Arab reaction to Obama's super awesome job handling Egypt.

Saudi, Jordanian Columnists Attack U.S. Policy in Middle East

Al-Hayat: Thanks to America’s Foreign Policy, Iran Can Achieve Hegemony Even Without Nuclear Weapons

Saudi Al-Watan: US Policy in the Middle East Has Failed

"…America’s abandonment of the Egyptian leadership was as complete as it was swift…

Jordanian Broadcasting Authority Director:

"The American president’s hasty statements did not win the favor of Egypt or its people, but, on the contrary, enraged them and led them to reject [his words] and all outside intervention in their domestic affairs… In light of all this, there is nothing left to say to the Americans but what ‘Abd Al-Rahman Al-Dakhil [founder of the Umayyad Emirate of Córdoba in Andalusia in eighth century CE], said when asked why the Umayyad [empire] had collapsed:

‘You abandoned your friends and lost them; you tried to curry favor with your enemies but failed to win them over.’

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4995.htm

In their words, not mine.

[Iliad]

They were complaining that Obama didn't stand behind Mubarak and support his state. Which might be good for Jordan and any other Arab states which could become fragile, but not really a great argument.'

So do you agree with their premise that Obama should not have let Mubarak fall, or are you just posting opinions that attack the same person you despise to back your own opinion up?

[Phatscotty]

he gets an F, but it doesn't matter though. Right.

Does it really matter if a student gets an F on a test? It's not like anything happened because of it...

This is by no means an "F" performance. For that to be the case he would have had to do something ridiculous like invade or some other nonsense of that magnitude.

where, in the realm of diplomacy, is failure to be clear? I think it's D at best.

[Phatscotty]

They were complaining that Obama didn't stand behind Mubarak and support his state. Which might be good for Jordan and any other Arab states which could become fragile, but not really a great argument.'

So do you agree with their premise that Obama should not have let Mubarak fall, or are you just posting opinions that attack the same person you despise to back your own opinion up?

If the shoe fits, wear it.

I don't know what the answer is. But I fear the results concerning possible wars, I wonder if when we look back, we might say "We should have tried anything and everything.

I don't even care about Obama or that he fucked up, I only care that millions of people in the Middle East are pissed at my country more than they were before, and it did not need to turn out that way.

One thing I did have faith in was that Obama had the potential to shine in Middle Eastern diplomacy. I thought he might do well there. I was wrong.

[Iliad]

They were complaining that Obama didn't stand behind Mubarak and support his state. Which might be good for Jordan and any other Arab states which could become fragile, but not really a great argument.'

So do you agree with their premise that Obama should not have let Mubarak fall, or are you just posting opinions that attack the same person you despise to back your own opinion up?

If the shoe fits, wear it.

For all your rhetoric of hating politicians, you sure are acting like one and dodging very basic questions.

I don't know what the answer is. But I fear the results concerning possible wars, I wonder if when we look back, we might say "We should have tried anything and everything.

There is the possibility of war. There is always the possibility of war and there is no use attacking Obama for not intervening in this revolution when you admit that we cannot actually predict what will happen. In experience, crushing democratic revolutions turns out bloodier.

Also tried what? It's nice and easy lamenting the fact that it's possible that maybe that this might be factor in a war in some future, but it's another to actually propose action itself. What should have been tried?

I don't even care about Obama or that he fucked up, I only care that millions of people in the Middle East are pissed at my country more than they were before, and it did not need to turn out that way.

But you're attacking him anyway and continously bring it up. Firsly prove that millions of people now hate America more, because of Obama's action. Secondly: if Obama intervened, don't you think the 80 million in Egypt would've hated America more, plus any other countries that would've seen America publicly upholding dictatorships over democracies because the former would be ally to them. You spout a lot about freedom and liberty, but that liberty and freedom seems to be exclusive to Americans for some reason.

One thing I did have faith in was that Obama had the potential to shine in Middle Eastern diplomacy. I thought he might do well there. I was wrong.

Besides the fact that he ahs gone there and given speeches, and have shoes thrown at him, how has he failed in Middle Eastern diplomacy. All you've shown is that the American diplomats weren't exactly sure what to say, except to plead for restraint and a peaceful resolution. If you're goign to critices him for this, explain how should have the American government responded?

[patches70]

I think,

The problem with Obama is that he did not heed Machiavelli's advice on which is better, to be loved or to be feared.

Obama is a narcissist, he wants the world to view him as he views himself. He wants to be loved and adored by the world.
Machiavelli says that it would be best to be loved and feared, but since that is rarely ever feasible by the leaders of nations, then it is better to be feared.

If The Prince is loved, it is conditional. People are quick to love a leader when times are good. But when things get bad people discard that love quickly in their own self interest. Since the people don't fear The Prince, they will take whatever action they wish.

If the Prince is feared, that endures in good times and bad times. What The Prince must always be wary of is not to worry about being feared, but to worry about being hated. The Prince would do well, to early on make deserving examples of malcontents who deserve some sort of severe punishment. That example goes a long way, no matter what fate brings later on.

Looking as some of the greatest leaders of all time, men like Alexander The Great, you can see how awe inspiring fear can lead to great deeds. Alexander was feared, by his enemies and his own men. Fear, properly applied, engenders respect. Love brings contempt as soon as The Prince attempts to bring discipline. This is a lesson Obama is learning, far too late IMO.

Anyway, I chuckle at the irony of Obama in Cairo during his World Victory and apology tour and how people thought it was a new leaf turning for the world. Something akin to "hope" I suppose. Of course, I am watching him make mistake after mistake and knowing full well that his actions would not garner the ends intended. Well, unless he just wants to fuel anti-Israeli and anti-American sentiments, then he succeeded very well.

The Egyptian army is not going to let any massive anti-American civilian leadership take power. The Egyptian army knows what that will mean for their country. Not to mention the Egyptian and American military's have some pretty close ties. The Egyptian military fears the American military, as well they should. They know they would stand no hope against the US military, so it is better for them to get along with the US. I see some turbulent times coming. In the end, it will be a new strong man suppressing the radical Egyptian wings of the populace. Their food situation will only get worse, changing the government doesn't hamper the growing food crisis in any way shape or form.

Also, I cannot stress enough at how stupid it was to send Frank Wisner to Egypt. Frank Wisner's is in the employee of Patton-Boggs. Patton Boggs works for Mubarak. He had a direct conflict of interest, a conflict not lost to the people protesting there in Egypt, but was apparently missed by our own State Department and the Obama administration...
Obama would have been better served not sending anyone.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.