Republicans and Democrats

[BigBallinStalin]

You're asking for way too much, and that would shatter her fantasy world!!

[PLAYER57832]

Most countries also have a reasonable minimum wage.. that is, a wage that allows people to get a roof over their head, food and even medical care without depending on government assistance. In this country, we do not. That is the real tragedy, MANY of those getting assistance are folks who work, even who work fulltime.

Really? Please provide examples of countries with a reasonable minimum wage. Please also provide examples of not only income inequality in those countries, but how the poor live in those countries.

Pretty much all of the Scandinavien countries do. I believe Germany as well. Canada's seems better than ours, by far, however, I am not as familiar with them as I am with scandinavia.

I would specifically interested in the poor in the following countries: France, England, and China. Furthermore, once you've done this, compare that data with average wage data in the United States, minimum wage data in the United States, and how poor people live in the United States.

China is absolutely not a model we should follow and is utterly irrelevant for many, many reasons.

Both France and England have universal healthcare. That means that regardless of anything else, people there are automatically better paid and doing better than we are at the base.

Beyond that, I suspect you are trying to tie recent strife to the wage issue, but that would be a completely incorrect assessment of the situation. The biggest driver for problems in both is unease with large immigrant populations. That does get partially translated into econmic issues, but the base issue is culture, not economics. There are also economic issues, but too high a base wage is not one of them. (France, for example has essentially "employ for life" type rules...something apart from minimum wage standards)

Once you've done all that, report back and retract your above statement.

Now you commit a complete logical fallacy. First you tell me to find examples, which I did, then you provide your own, which don't really fit what I was saying for various specific reasons, and try to claim that is a "win" for you. I am used to that from Phattscotty. You can do better.

[BigBallinStalin]

You've failed to connect "reasonable minimum wage" with "getting a roof over their head, food and even medical care without depending on government assistance." (hence, the cross-country comparison which was lacking in your post--note: "China is irrelevant, derp." HINT: Use actual numbers to represent each country's minimum wage rate).

Then, you need to show with the US' minimum wage that "we do not [have a reasonable minimum wage, or get the above things]."

[thegreekdog]

Now you commit a complete logical fallacy. First you tell me to find examples, which I did, then you provide your own, which don't really fit what I was saying for various specific reasons, and try to claim that is a "win" for you. I am used to that from Phattscotty. You can do better.

Look dudette - here's what you did (and what you continually do over the course of time you've engaged in any type of debate)...

You make a sweeping statement - "Most countries also have a reasonable minimum wage... that is, a wage that allows people to get a roof over their head, food and even medical care without depending on government assistance. In this country, we do not."

Now let's examine all the things wrong with that statement:

(1) You provide zero evidence supporting that statement. No links. No quotes. No numbers.
(2) You don't provide any details as to the numbers of countries (there are like 115 countries in the world).
(3) With respect to the "most countries" phrase, you go on in your next post to point to like five countries. Five. Out of 115. Five is not most.
(4) You describe a reasonable minimum wage as one that allows people to have a place to live, food and medical care. That's fine. That's not what a minimum wage is, but that's fine. As I've explained to you multiple times (with data!), no one makes minimum wage so your discussion point is moot in any event.
(5) Your last sentence is the one with the biggest problem. You've indicated that poeple in the United States (how many by the way?) cannot afford housing, food or medical care. You provide no evidence indicating that people can't. I've provided evidence at least twice with respect to the types of assets impoverished people have. You have yet to refute this evidence, yet you keep making statements like these.

[PLAYER57832]

Now you commit a complete logical fallacy. First you tell me to find examples, which I did, then you provide your own, which don't really fit what I was saying for various specific reasons, and try to claim that is a "win" for you. I am used to that from Phattscotty. You can do better.

Look dudette - here's what you did (and what you continually do over the course of time you've engaged in any type of debate)...

You make a sweeping statement - "Most countries also have a reasonable minimum wage... that is, a wage that allows people to get a roof over their head, food and even medical care without depending on government assistance. In this country, we do not."

Now let's examine all the things wrong with that statement:

If you are going to "examine all things wrong" then you need to at the least, start with what I actually said, which was this:

Most countries also have a reasonable minimum wage.. that is, a wage that allows people to get a roof over their head, food and even medical care without depending on government assistance. In this country, we do not. That is the real tragedy, MANY of those getting assistance are folks who work, even who work fulltime.

Your response was

Really? Please provide examples of countries with a reasonable minimum wage. Please also provide examples of not only income inequality in those countries, but how the poor live in those countries.

I gave the example of Scandinavia..countries you have mentioned in this context, so, again, I did not feel it needed reference, just a reminder.

Anyway, here is a link, from wikki listing various minimum wages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... by_country

BUT, and this is a pretty big one, its not enough to just look at straight wages. You also have to look at what they get for those wages. All of those countries have some type of universal healthcare system. In this context, it doesn't matter if it is applied through taxes or direct wages because it is available to everyone. The payment is there,its just whether its a government or private plan that differs.
Also, the cost of good varies. I did not bring up all that because it gets to be extremely complex.

I CAN , absolutely say that our minimum wage does not do that.. and I very much did verify this in previous thread debates in which you were involved.

(1) You provide zero evidence supporting that statement. No links. No quotes. No numbers.

Not this time, no, because it has come up before. None-the-less, I did provide it above.

(2) You don't provide any details as to the numbers of countries (there are like 115 countries in the world).

No, among other issues, I should have said "all industrialized countries", though that is not exactly accurate any more, since all countries have at least some industry.

But.. see above, I did provide it.

(3) With respect to the "most countries" phrase, you go on in your next post to point to like five countries. Five. Out of 115. Five is not most.

Never said it was. That was in reference to your question, which I quoted above.

(4) You describe a reasonable minimum wage as one that allows people to have a place to live, food and medical care. That's fine. That's not what a minimum wage is, but that's fine. As I've explained to you multiple times (with data!), no one makes minimum wage so your discussion point is moot in any event.

No, you have expressed your opinion that you happen to dislike my definition of what a minimum wage should represent. That is a different topic from saying that other countries provide what I feel a minimum wage should represent. I can discuss that, but it is another topic.

(5) Your last sentence is the one with the biggest problem. You've indicated that poeple in the United States (how many by the way?) cannot afford housing, food or medical care. You provide no evidence indicating that people can't. I've provided evidence at least twice with respect to the types of assets impoverished people have. You have yet to refute this evidence, yet you keep making statements like these.

OH BULL.. I have discussed and brought up plenty of evidence in the past, including specific data from my own town. You have a pretty good memory normally, that you decide not to remember that,(and it was a pretty lengthy run-down and debate) leads me to believe you have no interest in anything but trying to waste my time.

EDIT... I am sorry if I am grumpier than usual, i am not feeling good at all. Still, we HAVE discussed this, the data has been presented, sometimes by me, sometimes by others and it is rather fustrating that you would claim it never has been.

[Woodruff]

I think there's some distortion around what Freedom actually means though.

I mean, theoretically you can pay 99% tax and still be free, so long as that disposable 1% enables it.

Taxes are slavery!!!!

tremendously-patriotic-picture.gif

... I know you're being sarcastic there, Woody

Me? Sarcastic? Shirley, you jest!

but how many days/weeks/months in a year do we, well, half of us anyway, work for nothing at all for ourselves (to pay taxes)? And how much of a say do we have in this?

No argument. I'm not one that believes high taxes are particularly necessary, although I'll caveat that to say that I probably have a different view on what constitutes "high taxes" than many in this forum, thanks to living in Europe for six years.

... I understand the need for taxes, I'm not trying to go over the edge here, but the comparison to slavery is valid... to a degree.

To a degree, absolutely...but it's a SMALL degree. There is a relation, but I don't at all think the United States is anywhere near that point.

... It is not the fact that we have taxes that bothers me. It is how so few pay so very much of the balance (what is a "fair share"?) and how that burden destroys U.S. job creation and our collective stable future with it.

I don't believe this part is the case. The idea that taxes are killing job creation is a myth...corporations have been living high on the hog as far as taxes go for a while now, and job creation isn't improving. People having money in their pockets is what creates jobs, not corporations, because purchasing power is what drives the economy.

It is how that money is being spent. It is how I fear my children will be paying 50% or more in taxes by the time they get out of school - ending a traditional American dream, that our children will live better than did we (perhaps the saddest part of it).

Sure, I don't at all disagree. I have been loudly proclaiming in these fora for quite some time that the deficit has to be brought under control. It would probably surprise a lot of people her to find that I am generally pretty favorable to the idea of a Balanced Budget Amendment. I do think we have a responsibility to our childrens' futures in many ways, and the ability to survive financially is certainly one of them...one of many, of course and probably not even the most important. It can't be looked at as a singular entity in that regard, and I think that some people seem to neglect or not understand that point.

[thegreekdog]

I gave the example of Scandinavia..countries you have mentioned in this context, so, again, I did not feel it needed reference, just a reminder.

Anyway, here is a link, from wikki listing various minimum wages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... by_country

Most of those countries do not have a higher minimum wage than the United States.

BUT, and this is a pretty big one, its not enough to just look at straight wages. You also have to look at what they get for those wages. All of those countries have some type of universal healthcare system. In this context, it doesn't matter if it is applied through taxes or direct wages because it is available to everyone. The payment is there,its just whether its a government or private plan that differs.
Also, the cost of good varies. I did not bring up all that because it gets to be extremely complex.

I CAN , absolutely say that our minimum wage does not do that.. and I very much did verify this in previous thread debates in which you were involved.

Our minimum wage likely does not provide enough money for someone to live on. I suspect, though I cannot prove it without doing research, that the minimum wage in most of those other countries does not provide enough money for someone to live on either.

Which brings me again, to my point that virtually everyone in the United States makes above minimum wage (as I've proven before). If a lot of people only made minimum wage, how do poor people have televisions, cable, personal computers, motor vehicles, etc.? You did not verify this in previous threads. You provided anecdotal evidence about people who made more than minimum wage in other threads. Or you changed the subject.

(3) With respect to the "most countries" phrase, you go on in your next post to point to like five countries. Five. Out of 115. Five is not most.

Never said it was. That was in reference to your question, which I quoted above.

Oh my goodness gracious great balls of fire! You said most countries! MOST! Do you want me to define most?

(4) You describe a reasonable minimum wage as one that allows people to have a place to live, food and medical care. That's fine. That's not what a minimum wage is, but that's fine. As I've explained to you multiple times (with data!), no one makes minimum wage so your discussion point is moot in any event.

No, you have expressed your opinion that you happen to dislike my definition of what a minimum wage should represent. That is a different topic from saying that other countries provide what I feel a minimum wage should represent. I can discuss that, but it is another topic.

What? What do you mean I dislike your definition of what minimum wage represents? If minimum wage is $7.25 and I've proven in other threads that no one makes $7.25 an hour, what are you getting at? And no, it's not another topic.

(5) Your last sentence is the one with the biggest problem. You've indicated that poeple in the United States (how many by the way?) cannot afford housing, food or medical care. You provide no evidence indicating that people can't. I've provided evidence at least twice with respect to the types of assets impoverished people have. You have yet to refute this evidence, yet you keep making statements like these.

OH BULL.. I have discussed and brought up plenty of evidence in the past, including specific data from my own town. You have a pretty good memory normally, that you decide not to remember that,(and it was a pretty lengthy run-down and debate) leads me to believe you have no interest in anything but trying to waste my time.

EDIT... I am sorry if I am grumpier than usual, i am not feeling good at all. Still, we HAVE discussed this, the data has been presented, sometimes by me, sometimes by others and it is rather fustrating that you would claim it never has been.

So you've elected, once again, to ignore the evidence I provide on a regular basis that the poor in the United States (though according to you they cannot afford food, housing, or medical care) have enough money to afford personal computers, color televisions, cable, a house, a refridgerator, other appliances, etc., etc. I mean you can keep ignoring it if you want, but that doesn't advance your position. Perhaps we should instead discuss the priorities of the "poor" in the United States.

I hope you feel better, incidentally.

[Phatscotty]

Now you commit a complete logical fallacy. First you tell me to find examples, which I did, then you provide your own, which don't really fit what I was saying for various specific reasons, and try to claim that is a "win" for you. I am used to that from Phattscotty. You can do better.

Look dudette - here's what you did (and what you continually do over the course of time you've engaged in any type of debate)...

You make a sweeping statement - "Most countries also have a reasonable minimum wage... that is, a wage that allows people to get a roof over their head, food and even medical care without depending on government assistance. In this country, we do not."

Now let's examine all the things wrong with that statement:

(1) You provide zero evidence supporting that statement. No links. No quotes. No numbers.
(2) You don't provide any details as to the numbers of countries (there are like 115 countries in the world).
(3) With respect to the "most countries" phrase, you go on in your next post to point to like five countries. Five. Out of 115. Five is not most.
(4) You describe a reasonable minimum wage as one that allows people to have a place to live, food and medical care. That's fine. That's not what a minimum wage is, but that's fine. As I've explained to you multiple times (with data!), no one makes minimum wage so your discussion point is moot in any event.
(5) Your last sentence is the one with the biggest problem. You've indicated that poeple in the United States (how many by the way?) cannot afford housing, food or medical care. You provide no evidence indicating that people can't. I've provided evidence at least twice with respect to the types of assets impoverished people have. You have yet to refute this evidence, yet you keep making statements like these.